Will any of you be pulling a David Gaider?

[Cybersquirt]

Well, since I'm so encouraged by an official response and this seems dead horse I'll just post this:

 

http://www.petitiononline.com/kotor2/

[Musopticon?]

 

Not bloody likely guys. That petition's helping value is straight nil.

[Plooby]

LON (Ladies of Neverwinter) doens't think so. And, how cna he ruin Aribeth when it's his character? And, he didn't ruin Bastila either. Now, if you want to whine about how horrible Gaider is, at least pick on him for the silly kobold retard.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank goodness you set Nur Ab Sal straight, Vol... or I was going to have to. *polishes Gaiderite Fangirl badge* LoL... seriously though, the man is very appraochable and spends quite a lot of his free time posting and communicating with people who play his games. He could weigh 400 pounds and be bald as a billard ball and woman gamers all over would stay lay themselves at his feet.

 

Hey! Deekin was extremely funny! (w00t) But if he wasn't to your taste... how about HK? He wrote HK in something silly like 2 days! David Gaider is a genius, imho. (Not that I am biased! *covers Gaiderite badge* " )

 

As for ruining Bastila... she was annoying yes... just as annoying as Aribeth, but ruined? I don't see it. And sexist? That just makes no sense whatsoever! I am a woman and neither of those characters make me feel icky! In fact, he has created some of the most squeelicous male NPCs of all time! *cough*VALEN&CARTH*cough, cough* I feel that he has helped the plight of female gamers all over the world by making the games far more enjoyable to our feminie sides!

[Volourn]

HK was awesome. I'm also happy that Obsidian did a great job keeping him that way in KOTOR2. Great stuff.

[nightcleaver]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were girls out there who hated his writing.

 

I don't agree that LON, the feminist aspect of gaming, would at all cover the female population.

 

But I don't think there's much of anything truly sexist about Bastila or Aribeth. Except, perhaps, that they were both female leads and both annoyed a lot of people. You might call this sexism; but the fact is that gaider wasn't saying anything about woman in general really, or even trying to cast the important female character's in a negative light for being strong, but trying to write an interesting character.

 

I think he could've done this better; but that's all. Better writing, not better intentions.

 

I should add that I like the strong female leads, who aren't mind-numbingly girly (that's the sort of female character I focus on in my own writing), but it's the actual character traits that were written into these characters that annoyed people. My actual criticism would be this: I think he could've made their intentions more apparent, instead of just essentially setting up a fairly generic female lead in a special situation. That wouldn't please everyone, but I think it would please more people.

[Plooby]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were girls out there who hated his writing.

 

Oh... I know there are! But there are just as many or more that think that his NPCs make gaming for woman just that much more enjoyable.

 

I don't agree that LON, the feminist aspect of gaming, would at all cover the female population.

 

Wow... I post over at LoN and I have never been called a feminist before. But, I agree that that site isn't for every female gamer out there. I know quite a few who hate it there... but then I know several who hate it here, too! Can't please everyone. *shrugs* I am curious though as to how you think LoN is feminist or, maybe more importantly, how you are using the word, Nightcleaver.

[Volourn]

I like Lady Shayna the Big Cahoona of LON; but LON hates me. Accused me of being evil; they did. But, anyways, that's old news.

 

Anyone who thinks Gaider is a sexist becuase of characters he writes in games is just plain silly.

 

So what if Bastila was 'brainwashed' by Malak? That doesn't neccessarily make her weak and it sure as heck doesn't make her weaker than male characters. Afterall, there's plenty of examples of weak male characters and also exmaples of male characters who lose to the main villain.

 

Meh.

[Nur Ab Sal]

At the beginning Bastila was presented as a shining heroine. In the end she was shown as a weak and unstable girl who can only beg at the feet of strong males like Malak or Revan.

 

Just notice that no matter how strong you will make her during her stay in the team, when you will encounter her on Rakatan she has artificially lowered stats so she could be defeated more easily by supermale Revan. At least they could left her

original stats, that was influenced by gamer. What for I gave her all that feats hmm?

 

Her whole concept was invented only to humiliate the stereotype of a female heroine that is present in world culture since Amazons - to show that strong-willed woman will in fact gladly became a sexual slave of some bald guy only becouse he spanked & bondaged her.

 

I still consider Gaider a concealed sexist waiting to strike again.

 

And what the hell is LON?

[neriana]

Well, Carth isn't exactly a shining example of what a man can be either.

 

I hate Aribeth. But I hate Fenthick too, and he has got to be one of the stupidest characters ever created. (Hello, your lover is a PALADIN and she doesn't trust this guy!) And I despise Valen from HotU. Of course, some of that is the expectation of what a woman is apparently "supposed" to like, but I really don't know if that's sexism or just the fact that Bioware can't write good romances. Carth was the closest to good, but where the heck was a kiss?! And there's no getting around the fact that the reason he doesn't trust people is lame. I was expecting him to have been abandoned as a baby, brought up by abusive people, and cheated on with a Dark Jedi by his wife. But no, his reason for not trusting anyone ever is -- well, it's lame. Really, really lame.

 

In other words, I think Bioware is an equal-opportunity writer of irritating, unbelievable characters. I've also noticed that all the characters I like best were not written by David Gaider.

[nightcleaver]

I am curious though as to how you think LoN is feminist or, maybe more importantly, how you are using the word, Nightcleaver.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Sorry. There was a time feminist wasn't an insult, hehe LoN seems to be in that spirit, the spirit of working in the interests of the female gender. As opposed to putting men in their place, you know.

 

There are many levels of feminism, in my opinion, but maybe I should be careful about throwing that around?

 

Anyway, there WAS some overall.... iffiness... about how powerful bastila was. I mean, she's pushed off as being kind of average, but she practically LEADS this expedition to capture revan and malak. There was no glory for her, except for battle meditation.

 

But that's ultimately not a horrible thing. Some people don't get glory - from what I can tell, Carth gets far less glory.

 

Let me see if I can try and get what Nur Ab's talking about here:

 

Bastila Shan was a strong-willed person, but towards the end that strong will was attached to sheer emotional fragility. With Carth, his strength of will was never attached to fragility, to the very bitter end. Bastila becomes the ultimate prize, where Carth doesn't, and nor do any of the other characters; everyone but Bastila is still acting on their own will. If you manage to turn Bastila back, there's not much way to attach it to HER will to resist; instead it's attached to yours. If you don't turn her, or you go with her to the darkside, it seems to be Malak's will, and the malice of the Star Forge, that turns her. She doesn't choose this path.

 

And Aribeth is a little bit the same way. She turns because of her lover's death; she evidently doesn't have the strength of mind on her own to resist the temptation.

 

They are both thrown about by outside forces; but they themselves are strong willed and powerful characters. In one way it could be construed that the world, the gods, the Force, whatever, is trying to put these woman in their place, in a sense; or it could be seen as making a good story. Fairy tales about sleeping, helpless princesses and such can have a charm for woman and men alike, beyond the fact that at the time woman could never be warriors. In my eyes, Aribeth's and Bastila's conclusions come from this sort of fairy-tale charm, but in place of princesses are actual warriors, with the delicate charm of royalty. Which can be fascinating; although I must admit that I find it a little bit over-done.

 

Is it sexist to tell stories that put woman in vulnerable situations? Would it be sexist if we did that with male characters?

 

I think it's up to personal aesthetic. Not personal opinion or even choice, mind you, but aesthetic.

[Nur Ab Sal]

You all seem to forget about one basic thing: both in NWN and in KOTOR

female heroines are unveiled as unstable traitors, and in both cases David Gaider had big influence on the storyline. We may analyze Bastila's case endlessly but we won't change the facts: she was posed as a corrupted heroine who is very feminine

- her story looks like taken from medieval anti-women tales produced by the church.

 

I wonder: who let this blasphemy to happen in the age of liberal democracy and

suffrage? Biowhore should be punished by court for that.

[Baley]

I wonder: who let this blasphemy to happen in the age of liberal democracy and

suffrage? Biowhore should be punished by court for that.

 

Punishment

As for Bastila , Aribeth at least had a nice cleavage

[neriana]

Well, I am a feminist, and call myself one proudly. But I still don't really buy the Gaider sexist thing.

 

I think Bastila fell because she was the main Jedi character in the story. Jedis fall. I don't have an excuse for Aribeth, really, except that Bioware probably thinks betrayal is neat and dramatic and stuff. I don't have an excuse for any part of the NWN OC's plot though. Fenthick is brain-damaged and disloyal to his lover from the very beginning. In SoU, the female NPC is far more intelligent and pleasant than the male ones. (Deekin annoys me.) In HotU, the nicest, most loyal NPC is a drow female, and if she's LE and not NG I'll eat my computer, I don't care what her character sheet says. Valen, otoh, is ugly, obnoxious, rude, violent, and generally terrible.

 

There is some blatant sexism in the way Bioware has handled romances in the past. In NWN, the PC can romance Linu if he's male. No joinable romanceable NPCs for female PCs, and that really sucks. In HotU, female PCs get Valen. Male NPCs can persuade Aribeth and Nathyrra to share a menage a trois. And let's not forget BG2, with three romances for male PCs, and one for females. I hate Anomen, but even if I didn't, I could still count and hear. Not only is his romance the shortest, but in ToB his is the only wraith dialogue that's not voiced.

 

KotOR improved in these areas. KotOR2 appears to have some of the same "slap female gamers in the face" romance issues as older games, which is hugely disappointing. Two steps forward, one step back. It gets very tiresome, to say the least.

[Plooby]

Huh... there was much the same discussion over at LoN (which is Ladies of Neverwinter... a site that is supposed to support and promote female gamers) when Jade Empire rolled out last week.

 

The men *again* get a choice between two woman to romance. A male PC can be gay and choose to romance one male NPC. The first problem arises here, because this romanceable-by-a-male-gay NPC does double duty. He is also the only choice for a female PC to romance. So not only do the woman only have the one choice, but also under other circumstances, he could be gay. There *is* a lesbian romance in the game as well, if someone is interested in playing that out. But what really seems to through people for a loop, is that you have the opportunity to romance *two* NPCs (one male and one female, if you are a female PC and two females, if you are male). Woo-hoo! Some of the ladies were shocked and upset.. fireworks, I tell! Now... keep in mind that everyone gets a "kiss" scene (I beleive), but after the fade to black you wake up alone in your bed. So you don't *see* anything, really. And I think with the three-way, you don't even get a kiss scene. We have also been told that it is really, really hard to trigger the three-way and that you have to also really work at the gay romances... or at least to trigger them. So no one will be walking into any of these without fully knowing what they are doing. I just found it rather funny that no one seems to have a problem with causing massive death and distruction whereever we go, but let a PC engange in a little hanky-panky with two of the NPCs that you don't even get to *see* and all hell breaks loose.

 

I actually really enjoyed chaotic neutral Anomen. He was a lot of work in the beginning, but he shaped up into a wonderful character. Valen was... yummy. And Carth... *drools* Bao-Dur rcoked my world and I am enjoying Sky (from Jade Empire... who is everything that Atton should have been and wasn't!) So... if Bioware doesn't do a good romance... the who does? I mean, a nicely written romance in an RPG is like getting an extra meatball on your pasta. It's nice to have, but you can have a wonderful meal without one! But I was just wondering. I just have seen the Bioware romances getting better and better... working out the kinks with each new game, as it were.

 

As for the un-even-ness of male to female options... we asked the devs of Jade Empire this. We were told that their target aduience is something like 95% men and 5% woman. I think that those numbers are a bit skewed, but that gives you an idea how the industry thinks. Looking at those numbers, it is a wonder that female gamers are ever considered at all!

 

As for the squee-licous David Gaider... I have got to hand it to the man. He asks a lot of great questions and really seems to listen to the answers. He seems to be a very "available" guy... posting far more than I would think that a man in his position would have time for.

 

Oh... and not *all* of the females in those games were lame! My PC rocked!

[GhostofAnakin]

You all seem to forget about one basic thing: both in NWN and in KOTOR

female heroines are unveiled as unstable traitors, and in both cases David Gaider had big influence on the storyline. We may analyze Bastila's case endlessly but we won't change the facts: she was posed as a corrupted heroine who is very feminine

- her story looks like taken from medieval anti-women tales produced by the church.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the thing you have to take into account is that, atleast right now, game developers still focus their games towards a male audience. Thus, there is a path of reasoning that follows such as: a)since males make up a bigger percentage of the audience, it is assumed that they will choose a PC gender which mimics their own, and thus more people will choose to play as a male PC. Therefore given a), that would suggest that b)it makes more sense to have the main romantic involvement be the one to fall, and that entails making it the female NPC romance option that is the one who falls.

 

Given a) and b), then it would make very little sense to build the story around a male NPC who is the one who falls, since most (in terms of target market) gamers wouldn't really care as much if their PC's male "buddy" fell from grace. It's more of an impact if it's your PC's romance option.

[Volourn]

It's nice that people forget about Youshimo, and his betrayal. And, ket's not forget Fenthick. Are we males supposed to be insult by him? Afterall, he's friggin' retarded, and as a male I don't want to be associated with such a retard! BIO is sexist against males! Boo!

[Baley]

Yoshimo was great,I even used the exploit to keep him in my party after Spellhold

 

Fenthick? How did he betray anybody?

[Volourn]

I was talking about him being so retarded that only a sexist who hates males could even think about making him. As a male, I'm insulted to have the same gender as him.

[Baley]

I was talking about him being so retarded that only a sexist who hates males could even think about making him. As a male, I'm insulted to have the same gender as him.

Yup perhaps he should have been genderless

 

At least he died fast,Anomen was way more anoying

[Plooby]

Yup perhaps he should have been genderless

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You mean he *wasn't* genderless? Wow, I will have to play that again. "

[Baley]

He wan't really that bad,he might have been:stupid,naive,elfish and annoying but he at least had Aribeth

[Nur Ab Sal]

Fethick was naive good fella.

 

And volourn I can't agree with you, both Fenthick and Yoshimo weren't characters of big importance; Bastila was much more crucial character to the entire storyline. Their betrayal was either calculated or unaware. Bastila's spontanic betrayal was projected to show that females are unstable and ever-changing, and thus should not be trusted. "Girlie turn her back on you, so spank her Revan. You're soooooo powerful"

[Volourn]

"And volourn I can't agree with you, both Fenthick and Yoshimo weren't characters of big importance"

 

Good for you. But, they were.

 

 

"Bastila's spontanic betrayal was projected to show that females are unstable and ever-changing, and thus should not be trusted."

 

Proof?

 

It's also nice you seem to ignore all the strong, capable, and loyal females in BIO games.

 

 

WOWSERS!!

[Nur Ab Sal]

Where were all those strong females in KOTOR when we needed them.

 

It gotta be Gaider who cut them!

 

And Yoshimo isn't as important as Bastila. He has importance of Zaalbar actually

[Azure79]

I remember reading an article somewhere a long time ago concerning the romances in BG2. Bioware had more initial designs for female romances but were cut for time constraint reasons as well as their target audience consisted of more guys than gals.

 

I don't see how any of this is really sexist. Let's face it, guys play more games than gals. It's only natural that games will orient themselves more to the tastes of guys. I'm sure this will change as more and more gal gamers enter the market though. Why aren't there more emulsion therapy skin wrinkle care products for men! This is obviously sexist against men! Right?

 

As for the characters, Aribeth and Bastila, well I didn't find any of them annoying. Anyone could probably make up any 'sexist' argument against the manhood of any of the male NPCs if they really wanted to.