Jedi Daisho

[Kayn]

I just start mumbling about a thing...

 

Why a Short LightSaber should give a bonus when wielded off hand?

 

For the blade lenght? I think that cannot be for the Weight, 'cause Saber Blades doesn't weight at all...

 

But the lenght seems a little bit strange as reason...

[Reveilled]

I just start mumbling about a thing...

 

Why a Short LightSaber should give a bonus when wielded off hand?

 

For the blade lenght? I think that cannot be for the Weight, 'cause Saber Blades doesn't weight at all...

 

But the lenght seems a little bit strange as reason...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, weight could mean something. Even if the actual weight is the same, the shorter the blade gets, the closer the saber is to the expected weight. For instance, a lightsaber with a 2 inch blade is so close to the weight that it would be if the blade was made of metal, that it is a lot easier to be aware of the position of the blade relative to yourself. The longer the blade gets, the harder it gets to work out where the blades are. Even a Jedi is likely to cut his arm off with a double saber if he's used to a single because he can't picture where both blades are at the same time. So I suppose if one blade is shorter than the other, you are less likely to cut yourself if you lose awareness of the blade's position. That's just me playing devil's advocate, though, because I'd have to agree that it does still seem rather strange.

[Kayn]

Caring about 2 specular blades, isn't easiest than caring about 2 parallel blades of different lenght? Not only in keeping them away from your arms, but also in trying to put them in the opponent body...

[LordRaven]

I just start mumbling about a thing...

 

Why a Short LightSaber should give a bonus when wielded off hand?

 

For the blade lenght? I think that cannot be for the Weight, 'cause Saber Blades doesn't weight at all...

 

But the lenght seems a little bit strange as reason...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, weight could mean something. Even if the actual weight is the same, the shorter the blade gets, the closer the saber is to the expected weight. For instance, a lightsaber with a 2 inch blade is so close to the weight that it would be if the blade was made of metal, that it is a lot easier to be aware of the position of the blade relative to yourself. The longer the blade gets, the harder it gets to work out where the blades are. Even a Jedi is likely to cut his arm off with a double saber if he's used to a single because he can't picture where both blades are at the same time. So I suppose if one blade is shorter than the other, you are less likely to cut yourself if you lose awareness of the blade's position. That's just me playing devil's advocate, though, because I'd have to agree that it does still seem rather strange.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Light Sabers have know weight except for the handle. Which is why only someone who is attuned to the force can wield one effectively.

[Guest Damar Stiehl]

Wielding two weapons at once is a VERY challenging style, and blade length matters just as much, if not more than, weight. As someone with some real-life experience, I can say that managing two equally long blades at once can be... problematic.

[Daaave]

Wielding two weapons at once is a VERY challenging style, and blade length matters just as much, if not more than, weight. As someone with some real-life experience, I can say that managing two equally long blades at once can be... problematic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Very problematic.

[Jad'en]

Meh only thing i can duel weild is num-chuk's, merely because they swing. If they were solid then i can imagine they would connect and more than likely end up hitting myself trying to rectify the mistake

[Daaave]

Meh only thing i can duel weild is num-chuk's, merely because they swing.  If they were solid then i can imagine they would connect and more than likely end up hitting myself trying to rectify the mistake

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

[Jad'en]

Gotta love those crazy weapons stores... they let you try anything ^^

[Darkkender]

I just start mumbling about a thing...

 

Why a Short LightSaber should give a bonus when wielded off hand?

 

For the blade lenght? I think that cannot be for the Weight, 'cause Saber Blades doesn't weight at all...

 

But the lenght seems a little bit strange as reason...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

While this topic has been discussed at the LA forums I will explain here as well. Majority of this is game mechanics. While technically a lightsaber has no weight to speak of compared to a sword. A jedi is trained with swords first and then training lightsabers. This way they are familiar with the principals of how to weild a blade which applies to lightsaber combat. Now one of the many principals of two-weapon fighting is that it is easier to weild a short length weapon or a light weapon in your offhand effectively negating some of the horendous penalties you take for weilding 2 weapons. Now while lightsabers are probably the same in weight between short and regular there length is different giving you a different balance and feel. Concluding in giving you a bonus with your offhand attack because it is easier to weild if it is shorter in length.

 

If you are unfamiliar with the D20 RPG's this may still be difficult to grasp. If you have an interest in this subject I would highly recommend visiting some of the Pen and Paper RPG websites. In particular Wizrds of the Coast as they are the developers of the D20 system and also the publisers of the Star Wars PNP RPG.

[Montegue]

I have been practicing western martial arts for over 7 years. Using a weapon in your offhand is not more difficult *per se* than using just a single weapon. You just have to make an effort to train some different footwork, distance, and timeing. That being said, I've always hated the RPG notion that an offensive weapon in your off hand somehow makes it harder to weild both of them. It's silly. An offhand penalty makes sense, as it takes a lot of training to get your non-dominant hand to be as efficient, fast, and accurate as your on-hand. But I have yet to feel encumbered by having a dagger or another sword in my left hand.

 

that being said, I don't weild lightsabers The shorter the weapon in your off hand, the less you have to worry about getting crossed up. Eh. It's all preference. A dagger can kill you just as easily as a full length sword. It's just a matter of understanding some basic principles of combat.

 

Wow. That was rambly.

[Reveilled]

I just start mumbling about a thing...

 

Why a Short LightSaber should give a bonus when wielded off hand?

 

For the blade lenght? I think that cannot be for the Weight, 'cause Saber Blades doesn't weight at all...

 

But the lenght seems a little bit strange as reason...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, weight could mean something. Even if the actual weight is the same, the shorter the blade gets, the closer the saber is to the expected weight. For instance, a lightsaber with a 2 inch blade is so close to the weight that it would be if the blade was made of metal, that it is a lot easier to be aware of the position of the blade relative to yourself. The longer the blade gets, the harder it gets to work out where the blades are. Even a Jedi is likely to cut his arm off with a double saber if he's used to a single because he can't picture where both blades are at the same time. So I suppose if one blade is shorter than the other, you are less likely to cut yourself if you lose awareness of the blade's position. That's just me playing devil's advocate, though, because I'd have to agree that it does still seem rather strange.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Light Sabers have know weight except for the handle. Which is why only someone who is attuned to the force can wield one effectively.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That was my point. The saber weighs less than you would expect it to, and the change in the centre of gravity that you get with most blades that helps you imagine where the blade is is not there in a lightsaber. However, the shorter the blade gets, the closer the sabre is to the weight you would expect of a similar material blade, because the weight of an equivalent weapon goes down where the saber stays constant. Thus, if the blade is shorter, it may be easier to visualise where the blade is. If you can picture where the blade is more easily, you don't have to take as much care not to hurt yourself, and you can focus that care on your attacks.

[Kayn]

Darkkender...

 

I Play D&D 3.0, Star Wars, and Call of Cthulu with D20 Sistem, and if I remember well, the bonus at attack roll is intended for weapon of one size smaller than the character Size... I had ever think that the size was intended as the weight of the weapon, with no other clue for the fact that an halfling (Or a Kender... ) must wield a Longsword two handed other than the weigth and the control of swing...

 

Lightsabers actually had no distinction of size for the weight, the hilt is the hilt, not too much difference between Saber or Short Saber... And even if the basic teaching are learned with normal blades, the saber is wield in a unique manner... No Weight, less strength need in the blow...

 

Also, if was a question of lenght of the blade, why a character wielding 2 short lightsaber have the same penalties as one that wield a normal and a short ones?

[Daaave]

I have been practicing western martial arts for over 7 years. Using a weapon in your offhand is not more difficult *per se* than using just a single weapon. You just have to make an effort to train some different footwork, distance, and timeing. That being said, I've always hated the RPG notion that an offensive weapon in your off hand somehow makes it harder to weild both of them. It's silly. An offhand penalty makes sense, as it takes a lot of training to get your non-dominant hand to be as efficient, fast, and accurate as your on-hand. But I have yet to feel encumbered by having a dagger or another sword in my left hand.

 

that being said, I don't weild lightsabers The shorter the weapon in your off hand, the less you have to worry about getting crossed up. Eh. It's all preference. A dagger can kill you just as easily as a full length sword. It's just a matter of understanding some basic principles of combat.

 

Wow. That was rambly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Rambly, but true.

[Azure79]

Wielding two weapons at the same time with any amount of efficiency does take a lot of practice. If your right hand is dominant, then try swinging a simple stick with only your left hand. Its an awkward exercise at first. now imagine that stick is long and heavy and you'll get the picture.

 

I've studied martial arts as well. At least the eastern ones. The only experience I had with two weapon fighting were with two short katanas, well they aren't katanas per se, since Koreans use a slightly different type but its close enough.

 

Most people find as I did that the natural way the arms act when holding two weapons is that one will follow the other. Or rather one arm will naturally follow the momentum caused by the movement of another. If the arms cross it really becomes an awkward mess of hands, arms and whatever weapon your holding.

 

Thus the basics require you to first accustom yourself with the flow of the weapons having one trail the other, which results in circular movements. The purpose of this exercise is to accustom your weaker arm to the natural movements of the blade. Once your weaker arm becomes stronger and used to the weight and flow of the weapon, you have to train your mind and body so your arms can act seperately and independantly from each other without causing awkward crossing.

 

It's pretty hard sense your hands and arms try to tend to mimic each other.

[Jad'en]

Thats why anything that flows you can manipulate easy... they can follow each others paths at different speeds

[Montegue]

Wielding two weapons at the same time with any amount of efficiency does take a lot of practice. If your right hand is dominant, then try swinging a simple stick with only your left hand. Its an awkward exercise at first. now imagine that stick is long and heavy and you'll get the picture.

 

Using a weapon in your left hand like you use one in your right hand takes a lot of practice. However, when you actually try a sword form that involves two weapons, that's not really how it works. The weapons work to compliment one another, alternately attacking and defending, etc etc.

 

It takes a few weeks of semi-regular practice to become competant with the functioning of a 2-weapon style. Everything after that is just refinement.

 

Most people find as I did that the natural way the arms act when holding two weapons is that one will follow the other. Or rather one arm will naturally follow the momentum caused by the movement of another. If the arms cross it really becomes an awkward mess of hands, arms and whatever weapon your holding.

 

This is simply not the case. One arm *can* follow the other, but it doesn't have to, nor is it always wise for it to do so. In fact, putting both weapons in a single arch of roatation opens a person up to a deadly thrust from the oppisite angle in time with the cut.

 

Thus the basics require you to first accustom yourself with the flow of the weapons having one trail the other, which results in circular movements. The purpose of this exercise is to accustom your weaker arm to the natural movements of the blade.

 

This is true to an extent. Many of the masters who taught the rapier and wrote their work down spoke about the need to accostom your left hand to sword work if you intended to use two weapons of generally equal length. But that honestly doesn't take too terrbily long. Practically speaking, a thrust is greater than a cut. And no matter what, unless a person is being taught by an idiot, the left hand weapon will *not* encumber the right hand.

 

Once your weaker arm becomes stronger and used to the weight and flow of the weapon, you have to train your mind and body so your arms can act seperately and independantly from each other without causing awkward crossing.

 

Er, yeah kinda? It's not really about seperate and independant though. That's a little too simplified. It's about understanding the job of each weapon and how to best achieve that goal.

 

 

It's pretty hard sense your hands and arms try to tend to mimic each other.

 

 

Well, they shouldn't be mimicing each other - that way lies folly. Outside of kata, in practical combat, you need to partition the duty of each weapon given your stance in relation to your opponent, his gaurd, etc.

[Azure79]

Thanks for the analysis Montegue. You obviously know more about two weapon fighting than I do.

 

I wasn't trying to say that having one arm follow the other was a good thing to do. I was saying that's what usually happened during my first time practicing. I've never had any experience with a rapier or other western weapons so I can't comment on that but with a shorter katana type weapon there are more slashing manuevers than thrusting manuevers.

 

The important aspect of slashing is the ability to delivery it quickly and also stop it before you over-extend yourself to one side and therefore, as you mentioned, horribly expose yourself to the opposite angle. When performing a conventional two hand slash with a katana, your left hand on bottom and right hand top, the left hand is used to move the blade and the right to guide the blade.

 

If you become accustomed to this grip, it feels very awkward to use just one hand to do both since it requires considerable more strength in the hands, wrists and arms.

 

The practice exercises I mentioned aren't made to be used in actual combat of course. I certainly wouldn't simply circle my weapon around and around like an idiot against an opponent. The exercises I mentioned are just that, exercises meant for your weaker arm to grow stronger and for you to grow accustomed to wielding two weapons at once.

 

And of course, your arms shouldn't mimic each other, nor should they encumber each other. I wasn't saying they should. I found that trying to perform cutting techniques with two katanas caused me to overextend a lot because my arms, wrists and hands were just learning to compensate for wielding two weapons in two hands at the same time. This caused my arms to cross over each other and to avoid this I found one arm slashing in the same direction as the other. I was forced to do many painful exercises related to my head and neck as punishment everytime my two arms got in the way of each other.

 

Ideally, two weapons should be wielded as you say, compensating for both offense and defense each complementing the other. Which is kinda what I meant by separately and independantly. I don't know about you, but for me, trying to exert control over my two arms at the same time was a difficult exercise, and at times I wished I could actually spilt my consciousness to two separate halves. Each half controlling one of my arms. That's what I meant by that. Maybe I should have elaborated more.

[Khai]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people claim to have indepth knowledge of sword fighting techniques...I especially like those who try to claim that they're masters of a style that only ONE Japanese Samurai in history has ever been known to do decently in warfare. And that kind of the what the real test is, isn't it? Theory is great but unless you have any evidence its just heresy without proof.

 

I love armchair generals. Honestly guys, get a clue. You aren't out there fighting everyday, I doubt that a single one of you has ever been in a fight where you actually USED swords....how is your opinion any different from that of the devs?

 

Oh...and don't try to tell me that you're a master because you're in some kind of 're-enactment' society...all that really says to me that you waste your time in the park sitting out there messing around in mail and plate armor. What you're doing is acting, and how many people take actors as serious references for history? Its like an actor from ER claiming that he can give advice as a doctor based off his experience on the show. Fencing is great, but how many two hand weapon fencers do you see? None? Yeah....Sitting in a room messing with swords is far different than living a life where you know that eventually you're going to be a fight to the death against another person. Its just so different that this conversation is effectively worthless.

[Azure79]

Ok, I think you're overreacting just a bit.

 

I'm not some sort of swordmaster, and I never implied as such in my post. If anything I explained how frikken hard it was for me to even practice with two swords. I don't have any delusional fantasies that I am Miyamoto Musashi reborn ok?

 

I practice martial arts because its fun and good exercise. I like talking about it too. I realize I'm never going to experience the feudal ages of Europe and Japan nor do I really wish to.

 

Actually I'm confused as to why you're so riled up.

[Khai]

Sorry I wasn't directing that totally at you....but rather more of a general statement towards the legions of these types of posts that I see a lot. But I guess that is the nature of hanging out at boards that involve D20 and swords sometimes.

 

I also really enjoy martial arts, but I'm more a Brazilian J/Hapkido type guy. I just find it frustrating to have to have to wade through tons of 'reenactment sword master posts'. Its the nature of the the Net to have certain people make long winded replies on something that they know nothing about I guess. Especially since there is no way that anyone can prove anything on here.

[Azure79]

Heh, yeah I do tend to be long winded. Look at my posts, they go on and on and on when it would be better for me to stop and shut up.

 

It's cool you study Hapkido. In Korea they call it Hapkido. I looked at the Chinese characters once that spell Hapkido, and they're the same for Aikido. Literally translated it means, 'The way of combining your ki(energy)"

 

I've never tried Hapkido but have some friends who did. It seems similar to Aikido except a tad bit more brutal. I'm not sure though. Is it the same style as Aikido just pronounced differertly?

 

Just asking in case you know.

[Jackass Jones]

Swords are cool.