What view would you like in Project X?

[Sammael]

If exclusively single-player, it should be first person. If there is a notion of a party (through joinable NPCs or another method), it should be isometric.

 

That the game should be 3D is not even a question.

[mkreku]

Seems like Pre-rendered Isometric view (like in Fallout) won. Geez, people are still stuck in the stoneage!

 

Oh well.. Guess I'll just sit back and wait for Gothic 3 instead..

[Diogo Ribeiro]

The idea of isometric being used for party-based games is ok, but it isnt a requirement. I can play solo in a party-based game (Fallout, Baldur's Gate), just as I can play a party in a first-person view (Wizardry). I believe it should be related to the type of combat. Turn-based works better in isometric. For one, you have quite a large view of the battlefield, which allows you to see a large part of the battlefield. You have a wider point of view, which allows you to build up estimatives of possible moves and analyze what part of your surroundings (if any) can be used to your advantage. Real time, however, works better in first person (FP), or third person (TP) in my opinion. For one, the "zoomed in" factor of the point of view gives players a larger sense of immersion, of being there. Isometric and real time also has a problem with allowing more specific combat options (like the impossibility of allowing to move and fire simultaneously). In FP/TP, you can directly control your character, and can do the above. Direct control allows for different and more interesting, player-controlled combat mechanics like combos and blocks if TP, or a more immersive type of experience of your standard FPS with things like prowling and phisically aiming at your targets if FP.

 

Isometric's "zoomed out" perspective makes you feel like a general overseeing your troops; FP/TP perspectives makes you feel like a soldier actively envolved in the battle field.

 

And if I had to name a favorite, I'd have to go with Temple of Elemental Evil's isometric 3D characters on 2D pre-rendered backgrounds. I have no problems with other types, but I like this best

[Mark Nazzal]

Zantetsuken, wasn't your nickname supposed to be "Zanzetsuken" ?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Er... it was? This is related to Odin't strike in Final Fantasy 8. Zantetsuken was meant to mean "Iron Cutting Sword" or "Cutting Iron Sword". I don't recall it being Zanzetsuken; and I don't recall ever reading "zanzetsuken" anywhere, either

 

I could be wrong, though

[Lord Tingeling]

Odin is a wuss. Terrato and Fenrir are the only cool espers.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

There aren't Espers in FF8 <_<

[Mark Nazzal]

Er... it was? This is related to Odin't strike in Final Fantasy 8. Zantetsuken was meant to mean "Iron Cutting Sword" or "Cutting Iron Sword". I don't recall it being Zanzetsuken; and I don't recall ever reading "zanzetsuken" anywhere, either

 

I could be wrong, though

Yes, that's the same thing I was referring to. It was Odin's strike in FF VIII, and as far as I remember it was Zanzetsuken

 

I'm going to check on that.

[Mark Nazzal]

I've just checked. Sorry, my bad It's Zantetsuken.

[roshan]

i only play isometric stuff. the rest is just boring.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I've just checked. Sorry, my bad It's Zantetsuken.

That's ok

[Unit-Qz52]

Using NWN as an example of 3D isometric is a poor choice in my opinion. It was very modular which really limited how unique a lot of things could look. If a 3D iso game wasn't built to be modular and concentrated more on unique and interesting landscapes I am sure with today's tech that it can look just as good as prerendered environments.

 

Is there a reason why someone would choose prerendered over 3D besides the idea that prerendered can look more unique and interesting?

 

The other thing a 3D environment offers over prerendered is dynamic realtime FX, lighting, shadows. Much better interactivity.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

3D environments offer the possibility of better interactivity, but not always. As pointed out, NWN is a bad example of it. You look to Arcanum, and the tile-based engine allowed for much more interactivity that NWN's poor attempt at 3D did.

[Unit-Qz52]

Yes I really feel that NWN is probably one of the worst examples for a 3D Isometric game. Its purposes were more for ease of editing for end users than making a beautiful game, imo.

[Drakron]

Yes, but then we have Temple of Elemental Evil that looked pretty good.

 

NwN titlesets are ... uninspired.

[FrankK]

Where's the option for side-scroller?

[kumquatq3]

Where's the option for side-scroller?

LOL

 

A la "Link" or Simon's quest

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Where's the option for side-scroller?

Popful Mail was nice.

[mkreku]

Where's the option for side-scroller?

Uhm.. I think I included that highly popular RPG-view in "Other"..

 

By the way, this might be SLIGHTLY off topic, but since people seem to prefer pre-rendered isometric views in their RPG's, take a look at this game, Sacred. It's being developed in Germany right now, and it actually looks quite good even though it is pre-rendered. You can even zoom in the graphics in the game world. Weird. Anyhow, just a tip for anyone searching for an isometric RPG to long for..

[Unit-Qz52]

That Sacred isn't a bad looking game, just looking at screenshots. I imagine that they develop the 2D environments so that you are looking at the best resolution while zoomed all the way in, then when they allow you to zoom out you don't get pixelation.

 

I also think that game could really benefit from being 3D. A lot of the objects look pasted onto the scene (because they basically are). They tile a lot of stuff which makes me think they could have used 3D anyway. If you are tiling a lot of your image then you might as well use 3D which has the inherent limitation of tiling things to save space, but then gain all the benefits of 3D.

 

An iso 3D scene using some of the latest lighting techniques could really be something special. I was really looking forward to what Jefferson was going to bring to the genre, the few early screens we saw were promising.

[Kevin Lynch]

I put in for the isometric 3rd person view similar to a NWN style (3D). Now, I'm not fond of 3D stuff in general, and most of my favorite cRPGs are pre-rendered backgrounds with 3D sprite concepts (isometric) just because I find the 2D graphics always look better. I think they need to move forward with 3D, though, as they'll eventually be able to create graphics that are very life-like. Anything that moves along in that direction is a good thing, and I liked NWN enough to understand where it's going (although NWN graphics were not anything I cared for unless they were nice and small; I hate polygons).

 

I will also add that the KotOR style fit into that game quite well, and I find it hard to imagine the game in anything but that default viewpoint. I despise first person views, though, unless they are in adventure games (like the Myst games). I do not like action fps types, and Morrowind bothered me for its first person view (even as a single character). The party system of the M&M series, when everyone in the party was essentially one multi-headed "person", did not lend itself well to first person views. To put it simply, I do not like party management without the ability to view the entire party at once.

 

If ProjectX is KotOR2, then I suspect they'd do little to change the viewpoint, though, unless it's to add more camera options. Default will likely still be the same.

[Rise]

in my opinion, KOTOR did a damn good job w/ their view (im still playing it now). i think that it is one path fallout could have taken for fallout 3's view. when i play KOTOR, i definitely feel like im playing a fallout-style game, just more advanced. i f*ckin love it. im addicted to it like a stoner is addicted to putting on chapstick. and i think that the veiw just kicks a$$.

[roshan]

counting isometric together it accounts for over 60 percent of the voters. and thats strange beecause obsidians first game is not isometric.

[Vladek]

I think if it was something like Fallout 3 was going to be and fallout tactics was then that'd be great! but also wouldn't you like to feel you were there, like looking face to face so to speak with the world?

[FrankK]

I was thinking of camera angles over the weekend as I was playing NWN. At least on HotU, you can now page up/down the camera to get a horizon view. This is MUCH more immersive for the style of game. Iso works well in party based games (Dungeon Siege, BG1 and 2), but 3rd person is just much more about making the character the focus. Even in KotOR i find this works out well (despite the party based mechanics). You also have the luxury of adding ceilings to your corridors.

 

So much of NWN is lost when you are stuck in iso view. The detail--especially on later tilesets--is completely wasted with the camera pulled out, yet it's the only way to see what's up ahead in the iso view. Now I realize you can switch to over the shoulder, and that's how I generally play NWN now. In DS, that really wasn't an option because of the frequent elevation changes, etc. The only problem with NWN and a close camera is that the older tilesets weren't designed necessarily with that in mind (compare the SoU and HotU tiles to the original game and note the detail differences).

 

So in the end, I guess it depends on the game and what you are trying to emphasize. When the focus of the game is 'you', I think dropping the camera adds +1 to Immersion checks. I think you need the ability to 'free look' in 3rd person as well, especially if you have frequent height changes. When the focus is the 'party', iso allows you more management of your virtual minions.