How to hold a lightsabre. Kotor 1 got this wrong.

[xG-9]

This is being nitpicky perhaps, but being a little knowledgeable about swordsmanship, it bothered me a little that my Jedi PCs never held their single bladed lightsabres properly. I won't get into actual technique because that would just be way too critical.

 

How do I know how a lightsabre should be held since they don't exist? They should be held and used like Katanas, or Japanese swords...I will include a blurb on this at the end of this message for those who are interested in the reasoning.

 

First, a couple definitions: the handle of a Katana is called a Tsuka, and the handguard is called the Tsuba.

 

The Tsuka (and lightsabre handles, if you take a close look) are always *at least* about 3 fists is length. The hand on the same side of the body as the lead foot should be at the base of the Tsuka, and the other hand should be right up near the Tsuba. So if you're leading with your left foot your left hand should be at the base of the Tsuka (the handle) and your right hand up near the Tsuba (handguard) with a space of at least around a fist's length in between your two hands. In Kotor 1 I noticed PCs held their sabres with their fists right on top of each other, like they were holding a baseball bat.

 

There are countless reasons for this, including increased motion range, increased accuracy and stability, increased control, increased speed, and greatly increased power, to name a few.

 

 

 

---

Now for the quick blurb, for those who wonder why Lightsabres would be similar to Katanas.

 

In theory lightsabres would have very similar properties to Katanas, or japanese samarai swords, and would be effective using a very similar technique. In many respects, a lightsabre would actually be like a "perfect" Katana: the blade would be incredibly "sharp" and have no mass. This would actually call for perfect technique.

 

If you ever see a real Katana meant for an expert, you'll notice that there are two groves that run up the flat part of either side of the blade. These groves serve several purposes, the most important being that it lightens the blade. This results in two consquences: The sword is faster, but it is also much less forgiving. Less forgiving because, though it is faster, it is lighter and therefore carries less momentum. So with improper technique, much of the force behind the swing will be lost. (this force doesn't come from the speed of the blade, it comes from the technique behind the swing)

 

And it isn't that a lightsabre is a beam of energy that cuts like a knife going through hot butter so doesn't need this force behind the swing...a real Katana (which, btw, run starting from about $25,000...not like the cheap $200 replicas found at your local knife store) doesn't take much of a swing to lob 1 or 2 heads off. (a single swing of the best Katanas could easily cut through 5 or 6 heads...they used to be tested on slaves) The force behind the swing is necessary, in fact, for when the Katana clashes against another Katana during battle. Just as a lightsabre clashes against another lightsabre.

 

So, being like a "perfect" Katana with a weightless, but incredilbly "sharp" blade, Lightsabres would require perfect technique, almost exactly the same as would be employed while using a Katana. The only difference (and the same applies for Kendo swords, Shinai) is that a lightsabre wouldn't have to strike an opponent with the sharp edge of the blade first, which allows for effective use of some swings that wouldn't be possible with a Katana. (and this is the reason why Kendo isn't pure to swordfighting, but is more of an "art" form of swordsmanship ... the round blades of Kendo bamboo swords, Shinai, allows for scoring from swings that wouldn't work with a real Katana, but would work with a lightsabre)

---

 

Ok this has become quite an essay and I'm exhausted. There's a lot left to be said, even about why Lightsabres would be used like Katana, my main point. But I'll leave it up to anyone who isn't convinced, or has more questions in general, to do their own research from here.

 

xG-9

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

If the blade was truly weightless, a thrusting technique would be the best, actually. You do have a point there, though - just watch the movies (at least OT) and you'll see they're used just like a katana is.

[ShinIchiro]

If the blade was truly weightless, a thrusting technique would be the best, actually. You do have a point there, though - just watch the movies (at least OT) and you'll see they're used just like a katana is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

So then in theory wouldn't lightsaber 1v1 combat be much like fencing?

 

 

 

Yah, I always considered the sabers something like a katana longsword hybrid.

[LoneWolf16]

I'm not going to feign knowledge of swordmanship, or anything that pretains to it (Other than "Sharp part goes at bad guy") so I really can't offer a decent argument...though I think I can contribute to the over all point of the thread.

 

Katanas were the swords of Samurai, correct? Lucas, I believe, has made reference to the jedi being somewhat based upon samurai...in space. I'm pretty certain he said something to that affect, so to me, it really makes this point worthy of note Devs . I know that TSL is way too far into development, but perhaps KOTOR 3 (Provided that there is going to be a KOTOR 3), could somehow implement it...

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"So then in theory wouldn't lightsaber 1v1 combat be much like fencing?"

 

Exactomundo!

[ShinIchiro]

So the big swings only make sense from a defensive and acrobatic point!

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

Yes, and that leads to the conclusion that either jedis and siths are really too much into all that showbusiness stuff, or that the lightsaber's blade in fact has mass, does it not?

[ShinIchiro]

Or that stabs are non-leathal. Really, if you poke someone in the stomach with a saber (clean self sealing wound) they probably have some time left in them. If you slash, they're cut in half. Read Shatterpoint if you doubt me.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

If you stab someone in stomach, they're as good as dead. Sure, they may be able to breath and will wriggle, but they're not gonna get up. Study medicine if you doubt me.

 

edit: Besides, once you got the blade inside, you might as well slash it out. After all, lightsabers are 'sharp'.

[ShinIchiro]

If you stab someone in stomach, they're as good as dead. Sure, they may be able to breath and will wriggle, but they're not gonna get up. Study medicine if you doubt me.

 

edit: Besides, once you got the blade inside, you might as well slash it out. After all, lightsabers are 'sharp'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Maybe technically, but EU says otherwise.

 

 

And about slashing it out, read shatterpoint. It's a danger. That's why Mace made sure the saber stayed inside of him.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Maybe technically, but EU says otherwise."

 

What can I say? EU is wrong.

 

EU, in general, is wrong, wrong, people.

[ShinIchiro]

"Maybe technically, but EU says otherwise."

 

What can I say? EU is wrong.

 

EU, in general, is wrong, wrong, people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But it's not reality. Things don't have to be right 100% (though if it's completely wrong everywhere you've got a problem).

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

The thing is, it's just another 'just because', and does nothing good for the setting. Nothing.

[xG-9]

If the blade was truly weightless, a thrusting technique would be the best, actually. You do have a point there, though - just watch the movies (at least OT) and you'll see they're used just like a katana is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So then in theory wouldn't lightsaber 1v1 combat be much like fencing?

 

Yah, I always considered the sabers something like a katana longsword hybrid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmmm well since we have neither real lightsabres nor do we have force-using Jedi, it's impossible to say whether Escrime, or Fencing, would be better than...say...Kenjutsu while using a lightsabre. (quick note: the "-do" forms are usually more for art and the whole harmony martial arts thing while the "-jutsu" forms are for actual combat, eg Kendo vs Kenjustsu, Judo vs Jujutsu)

 

But to actually make this slightly more of a mute point, both Kenjutsu and Fencing (esp with Rapiers, "fencing" swords with the wide blades, used for actual combat...that actually have a sharp edge on the blade to use) utilize both thrusting and swinging techniques. Though admittedly fencing swings (even with rapiers) are used either for deflection or to deliver non-lethal slashes mostly, when used for attack.

 

But for whether Fencing or Kenjutsu would be better with a lightsabre, here's a few quick arguments as to why Kenjutsu *might* be better. Kenjutsu is at least as fast with the blade as fencing is, which is where one would assume the advantage would come from. (which it doesn't) Both styles are fairly mobile on their feet, so there isn't really much of a mobility advantage for either. ... and lastly, a one-handed form, especially with swords with weightless blades, would never be able to deflect, much less stop, a proper Kenjutsu swing.

 

For this last point you either have to have studied, at least in passing, both forms, or have seen a demonstration. The closest thing to a Kenjutsu/Katana vs Fencing/Rapier demonstration would be a very limited number of demonstrations I've seen between various chinese sword styles vs a Katana wielder. Chinese swords are similar to rapiers in that they are single handed, lightweight, thrusting swords. In these demonstrations the wielders of these thrusting blades were constantly avoiding the swings and thrusts of the Katana, since there is so much force behind those attacks that it would be impossible to deflect. Their only hope was to stay out of range except for very brief spurts when they would close to attack, then they'd have to move right back out of range again. I actually think that chinese sword forms are more effective against Katana wielders than fencing would be because there is so much more mobility involved that it should give a much easier time of avoiding the Katana. (for a quick reference you can watch the newly released "Hero," except minus the many scenes with the wirework...there are a few examples in the movie, however, where there is no wirework)

 

And of course to be constantly avoiding the swings one needs room to move away from the Kenjutsu practioner, and space isn't always plentiful.

 

So here's a few reasons as to why Kenjutsu (some Katana practitioners may want to kill me for limiting Katana use to Kenjutsu) *may* be better with lightsabres than, say fencing, or the multitude of chinese forms. But then again, it might not. We'll never know...until we have force-using Jedi with lightsabres...

[ShinIchiro]

If the blade was truly weightless, a thrusting technique would be the best, actually. You do have a point there, though - just watch the movies (at least OT) and you'll see they're used just like a katana is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So then in theory wouldn't lightsaber 1v1 combat be much like fencing?

 

Yah, I always considered the sabers something like a katana longsword hybrid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmmm well since we have neither real lightsabres nor do we have force-using Jedi, it's impossible to say whether Escrime, or Fencing, would be better than...say...Kenjutsu while using a lightsabre. (quick note: the "-do" forms are usually more for art and the whole harmony martial arts thing while the "-jutsu" forms are for actual combat, eg Kendo vs Kenjustsu, Judo vs Jujutsu)

 

But to actually make this slightly more of a mute point, both Kenjutsu and Fencing (esp with Rapiers, "fencing" swords with the wide blades, used for actual combat...that actually have a sharp edge on the blade to use) utilize both thrusting and swinging techniques. Though admittedly fencing swings (even with rapiers) are used either for deflection or to deliver non-lethal slashes mostly, when used for attack.

 

But for whether Fencing or Kenjutsu would be better with a lightsabre, here's a few quick arguments as to why Kenjutsu *might* be better. Kenjutsu is at least as fast with the blade as fencing is, which is where one would assume the advantage would come from. (which it doesn't) Both styles are fairly mobile on their feet, so there isn't really much of a mobility advantage for either. ... and lastly, a one-handed form, especially with swords with weightless blades, would never be able to deflect, much less stop, a proper Kenjutsu swing.

 

For this last point you either have to have studied, at least in passing, both forms, or have seen a demonstration. The closest thing to a Kenjutsu/Katana vs Fencing/Rapier demonstration would be a very limited number of demonstrations I've seen between various chinese sword styles vs a Katana wielder. Chinese swords are similar to rapiers in that they are single handed, lightweight, thrusting swords. In these demonstrations the wielders of these thrusting blades were constantly avoiding the swings and thrusts of the Katana, since there is so much force behind those attacks that it would be impossible to deflect. Their only hope was to stay out of range except for very brief spurts when they would close to attack, then they'd have to move right back out of range again. I actually think that chinese sword forms are more effective against Katana wielders than fencing would be because there is so much more mobility involved that it should give a much easier time of avoiding the Katana. (for a quick reference you can watch the newly released "Hero," except minus the many scenes with the wirework...there are a few examples in the movie, however, where there is no wirework)

 

And of course to be constantly avoiding the swings one needs room to move away from the Kenjutsu practioner, and space isn't always plentiful.

 

So here's a few reasons as to why Kenjutsu (some Katana practitioners may want to kill me for limiting Katana use to Kenjutsu) *may* be better with lightsabres than, say fencing, or the multitude of chinese forms. But then again, it might not. We'll never know...until we have force-using Jedi with lightsabres...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Sorry. TO clarify I was refering to foil or epee, not saber. Those use no slashes whatsoever and range is possibly the most important thing. You dance out of range until you lunge in to hit, then run back out. There's alot of mobility in fencing...ALOT. Infact, that's most of the sport. Also, saber parries might be able to block, but foil and epee (bendier blades) would seek to redirect instead of block, using a counterparry. All fencing styles (fencing is like 3 different sports) would try to block at the forte of the blade, which could probably hold up to a Katana unless the blade broke.

[DesertHawk]

I fence saber and foil. Epee is too heavy for my weak female arms. <_<

 

While you can slash in saber, sometimes it's better to thrust. Besides, if you wanted a shashing weapon, you'd have something more like a broadsword. Saber is cavalry, so of course you'd be slashing a bit. However, you wouldn't want to overdo it too much. You have to be able to recover from a slash and pull back if you don't make it.

 

Lunges. They work wonders. Covering a large amount of distance in a quick amount of time.

 

Fleches. I may be wrong with spelling. They're great, too.

 

 

Eh. Back on topic.

 

Lightsabers are straight. Katanas are slightly curved, if I recall. If a Jedi was to lunge more, they'd probably win a lot more battles. A good lunge can be hard to counter.

[xG-9]

Back off topic, what's the difference between an epee and a foil?

I always thought they were the same thing...notice I previously said something to the effect of "I know something about swordmanship" ... and something obviously meaning...not enough lol.

 

I may find myself working in Japan for a year starting in a few months and if that happens, along with all the other things that I'd hope to be able to find time to do, I really hope I find the time to take Kenjutsu for the majority of the year. (and I may be able to wait till I get back to play kotor 2, when it's a platinum hit...)

 

My interest in swords/swordfighting began with my fascination in just how incredible the construction of real katanas are...not that I'll be able to afford one...I mean even the blade itself, which is made of 2 different types of steel, a softer inner layer to create the proper stiffness and to make the blade stronger, and a harder outer steel to give the infamous razor edge: "It depends on the smith. Shinganae is generally folded about 10 times, resulting in about a 1000 layers. Kawagane is folded anywhere from 12 to 16 times, depending on the smith and the metal he is working with, and so could have from 4000 to 65000 layers."

 

lol I'm getting way off topic here...to momentarily get back on topic, about the grip of a lightsabre. A little experiment you can quickly do to convince yourself of the proper grip of a 2-handed sword is to grab, say, a hockey stick at one end, with both your hands right next to each other, place the other end of the stick on a desk and lean *down* on the stick, placing your weight on it. You'll notice it's hard to put much weight on the stick. Now move your hands apart a distance and try again. You'll notice you'll be able to put a lot more weight down onto the stick, and so a lot more force behind it. (and if you look at the curvature of the stick with the two grips you'll notice it bends a lot more with your hands apart) If you quickly swing it around with the two grips, you'll also realize, aside from the fact that you've just smashed a hole in your computer monitor, that with your hands apart you have a lot more control, the range of motion is increased, and you can also swing the stick around a lot faster.

 

 

 

 

I fence saber and foil. Epee is too heavy for my weak female arms.  <_<

 

While you can slash in saber, sometimes it's better to thrust. Besides, if you wanted a shashing weapon, you'd have something more like a broadsword. Saber is cavalry, so of course you'd be slashing a bit. However, you wouldn't want to overdo it too much. You have to be able to recover from a slash and pull back if you don't make it.

 

Lunges. They work wonders. Covering a large amount of distance in a quick amount of time.

 

Fleches. I may be wrong with spelling. They're great, too.

 

 

Eh. Back on topic.

 

Lightsabers are straight. Katanas are slightly curved, if I recall. If a Jedi was to lunge more, they'd probably win a lot more battles. A good lunge can be hard to counter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

xG, what you missed with the example of katanaguy vs. chinaman is the 'weightless blade'. Slashing techniques really suffer from that. Thrusting ones, not so much.

 

I don't think the lightsaber 'blade' is weightless, btw.

[KingSnake]

xG, what you missed with the example of katanaguy vs. chinaman is the 'weightless blade'. Slashing techniques really suffer from that. Thrusting ones, not so much.

 

I don't think the lightsaber 'blade' is weightless, btw.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Don't know much about swordsmenship, just wondering, (and not looking to start a fight, i'm just honestly wondering) why you belive a "light" saber's blade has weight to it? When i watch the movies, the way the spin there sabers in circles... i have a hard time understand HOW they do it so easily if the blades doesn't have any weight to add momenton to the spin...(I hope i spit that out right.) Seems to be, the way the jedi fight, there blades would need to be weighted... somehow... perhaps they use the force to add mommention to the blades... since the saber are made of a special force crystal... mabye they have a special attatchemnt to them and can accually "push" the blade to add beef to there attack...

 

don't know... just thinking out loud.

 

KingSnake.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

I don't think the the 'blade' is weightless. It's just a commonly thought to be.

[alanschu]

I think the reason the lightsabers don't appear to be weightless is because it would be impossible to truly understand what it would be like to use a weightless blade, mostly because they cannot exist.

 

Also, the lightsaber should be used as <whatever> also overlooks that a Jedi's command of the lightsaber is heavily influenced by his ability to manipulate the force. Things that apply to our combat does not apply to lightsaber combat.

 

 

Also, any reason for you to not think it's weightless, rather than just "thinking" it.

[xG-9]

xG, what you missed with the example of katanaguy vs. chinaman is the 'weightless blade'. Slashing techniques really suffer from that. Thrusting ones, not so much.

 

I don't think the lightsaber 'blade' is weightless, btw.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmmm not sure if a lightsabre blade would have any weight to it. There would possibly be air resistance though which would definately give a "feel" to the blade moving through the air.

 

As for getting power behind a swing with a weightless blade, read up on my blurb on Katana use.

 

The power behind a Katana swing doesn't come from the speed and momentum of the sword itself. Just a guess at a figure but I'd say that roughly 90-95% of the power in a Kenjutsu, etc strike come from the technique and the form. The weight of the entire body is put into a strike, much like how in martial arts, or boxing, they tell you not to "punch with your arms" but instead that the power in a punch is supposed to start from the feet and legs and move up through the body and into the arms.

 

In much the same way, a Katana's power comes from putting the entire force of your body behind the strike. Earlier I wrote about how an expert wielder will use a Katana with two large groves in the blade, which aside from other purposes serves to lighten the blade significantly. The reason why this is desired only by experts is that it requires perfect technique to keep the power in the swing then, whereas if you have flawed technique you'll want a "solid" blade without the groves so if you make a mistake the blade will have more momentum to make up for flaws in the technique.

 

With perfect technique you could have a very powerful swing even without any momentum in the blade. It is for the same reason, the amount of power behind these swings, that it is pretty much a futile attempt to try to parry or block a Kenjutsu swing with a 1-handed sword. It is a combination of the swing technique and the sharpness of the Katana that leads to the Katana's infamous reputation for cutting straight through the blade of lesser quality swords.

[Child of Flame]

xG, what you missed with the example of katanaguy vs. chinaman is the 'weightless blade'. Slashing techniques really suffer from that. Thrusting ones, not so much.

 

I don't think the lightsaber 'blade' is weightless, btw.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmmm not sure if a lightsabre blade would have any weight to it. There would possibly be air resistance though which would definately give a "feel" to the blade moving through the air.

 

As for getting power behind a swing with a weightless blade, read up on my blurb on Katana use.

 

The power behind a Katana swing doesn't come from the speed and momentum of the sword itself. Just a guess at a figure but I'd say that roughly 90-95% of the power in a Kenjutsu, etc strike come from the technique and the form. The weight of the entire body is put into a strike, much like how in martial arts, or boxing, they tell you not to "punch with your arms" but instead that the power in a punch is supposed to start from the feet and legs and move up through the body and into the arms.

 

In much the same way, a Katana's power comes from putting the entire force of your body behind the strike. Earlier I wrote about how an expert wielder will use a Katana with two large groves in the blade, which aside from other purposes serves to lighten the blade significantly. The reason why this is desired only by experts is that it requires perfect technique to keep the power in the swing then, whereas if you have flawed technique you'll want a "solid" blade without the groves so if you make a mistake the blade will have more momentum to make up for flaws in the technique.

 

With perfect technique you could have a very powerful swing even without any momentum in the blade. It is for the same reason, the amount of power behind these swings, that it is pretty much a futile attempt to try to parry or block a Kenjutsu swing with a 1-handed sword. It is a combination of the swing technique and the sharpness of the Katana that leads to the Katana's infamous reputation for cutting straight through the blade of lesser quality swords.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Eh, I'm no swordsman, but I would also imagine there's quite a bit of leverage when using a grip as you've desribed, merely because you're using one hand to accentuate the efforts of the other.

[alanschu]

I think another thing being overlooked is that the lightsaber doesn't require the leverage and whatnot to actually cut. I could "swing" it at 0.00001 m/s and it'll still cut right through you

[Soleyu]

The thing about the lightsabers is that they lend themselves to pretty much any style of attack, be it slashing lunging or whatever, because the whole "blade" is "sharp".

 

Now I dont know much about fencing or Kenjustsu or whatever but I do know some physycs, the reason that the blade cuts, besides its edge is its momentum, which its defined by its mass, if the blade were truly wheightless it would demand a different style of use, as the blade would not create any resistance or give you any sense of weight, it would be like using only a hilt.

 

BTW, katanas do have momentum and speed, the technique is what gives it the momentum and speed by using your body and weight to leverage the katana, but this works because the katana also has weight, the blade's weight is what "channels" your momentum and technique.

 

In reality it doesnt really matter how much momentum you would give a lightsaber, as it doesnt need it, the katanas and other real swords do. You could swing at any speed and still cut the same (as alanschu so well put), as opposed to a katana, this is the same for blocking, as the lightsaber has no weight you could put any strenght in blocking and the lightsaber would block it the same (especially against another lightsaber), as it would not shift the weight on your block and the attack would not have any strenght. The only thing that truly matters is the speed of your swing so your attack would hit.

 

Another thing I find it really doubtful that the attacks were designed with a block in mind, as you know if you block a katana with another the blade would chip really badly, as both are razor sharp. The whole point was to make one killer attack, especially in a war were you had to worry of 40 other a*****es trying to kill you.

 

Feel freee to correct me if im wrong, as I said i dont really know too much about fencing, just some things that I have been investigating (more like reading when I casually found it) throughout the years.

 

See ya later.