Spiritshift and Shifter rework / improvements discussion

[ShadyDax]

Hey guys, I'm a mod developer (and author of Druid Wild Shape Overhaul - as an example of my work), currently working on a Spiritshift and Shifter druid rework / improvements mod.  
  
I just want to open a discussion and see some opinions and ideas as to how Shifter and Spiritshift could be improved and/or reworked.

To start off, I'll give you some of my starting points:
- Shifter doesn't present an actual improvement to Spiritshift fighting capabilities. I would argue that the inability to cast spells during the shift actually makes it considerably worse, and the better duration and more forms do not outweigh that. More forms usually means you would only use two of "the best" forms at most, with other forms potentially used as a source of healing - healing that is worse than an ability to cast some of the quick spells such as Nature's Balm and Taste of the Hunt and such.  
- Some of the subclasses are better or more distinct thanks to their higher level spells or features. Shifter doesn't get anything like that - and the last Wildstrike upgrade doesn't seem to be worth it, it's not strong enough to entice going single class druid (or take it at all for that matter, even when single classed).  
- Spiritshift by itself has a problem of not benefitting from some of the gear (armour and weapon slot) - even with the ability to cast spells during the shift, it would still be better to drop it and cast Plants and Beasts / Rejuvenation spells out of Spiritshift, when wielding the The Spine of Thicket Green. I will discuss a potential solution for this below.  
- One of the reasons why Spiritshift doesn't scale well in this game, is because of the lack of itemization. It was actually a little better in the first game - with the Wildstrike Belt and Sanguine Plate, as an example. In this game, we have some thematically fitting items that could be reworked to support late game spiritshifting better (such as Changeling Mantle), and we could also add more items like this.

I'm considering a few points of improvement:
- We could make spellcasting during Spiritshift available for a Shifter. But that would require some alternative penalty for this subclass - I'm interested in any ideas.  
- We could make Shifter to have an infinite duration of Spiritshift, and the ability to transform into any form unlimited number of times per combat (without any cooldown). Of course, that would require removal of the healing (when you drop the form) which I'm more than fine with, especially if we get spellcasting back. That would enable a really cool, true experience of shifting back and forth depending on the combat situation: first dealing with a strong enemy in a Cat form, then dealing with a pack of mobs in a Stag form, then switching to a Bear form to tank some hits and get back to good health, and then back to Cat form to deal with the boss - as an example. I love the idea, but it would also require a rework to some of the form's abilities that would get refreshed upon re-transformation to the same form in the same combat (such as Cat's Flurry or Wolf's Knockdown) - but that's also what I plan to do anyway.  
- Yeah, I'm thinking about giving all forms more passive features, such as regeneration to a Wolf form, and bleeding dot from attacks to a Cat form (instead of their Knockdown and Flurry abilities). Cat's Flurry in particular is problematic as it makes the form much better for spellcasting - and I would like to keep the form's capabilities more restricted to actual fighting. I'm also considering adding the more active abilities (like Bear's Roar and Wolf's Knockdown) available for all forms, with the same limit of use per encounter; there's no reason a Cat form wouldn't be able to roar, or Stag form wouldn't be able to knockdown an enemy - it is huge af. But that also leads to the question of - should we add more Spiritshift abilities like this on the progression table of a Shifter, and if so, at what cost? Or should such abilities come only from multiclassing?  
- I mentioned above the problem of not getting PL bonuses/effects from weapons and gear, during Spiritshift. I guess that could be fixed with a slight rework/addition to how these items function. They could provide a buff that is only activated during Spiritshift, and gives the same PL bonuses.

As for alternative penalties, for this subclass - to outweight some of this stuff, I only have one idea - removal of the subclass spells (that are automatically granted at each PL). Maybe Spiritshift abilities, as mentioned above, could replace that?  

Anyhow, I'm interested in hearing from people with experience of playing a druid - what you think about some of these ideas, and if you have any other suggestions. If this discussion proves interesting and useful, I might make more posts like this for my future mods. One of which would be for Animal Companion improvement.

I'm making this post here, rather than in the mods section, because I'm more intersted in a discussion of a class/subclass and gameplay features, rather than technical implementation. I hope it's alright.

[Constentin Lévine]

While shifted, you have naturally not access to your weapon's sets and your armor' goodies ; if you make Shifter not allowed to wear armor and weapon at all (so they should be nude when not -shifted) that can justify the infinite duration of the spiritshift. What do you think?

[Chaospread]

Hi, good catch. I'd improve spiritshifts for all subclass and plain druids

On 2/23/2025 at 7:07 AM, ShadyDax said:

We could make spellcasting during Spiritshift available for a Shifter. But that would require some alternative penalty for this subclass - I'm interested in any ideas.

Spellcast allowed but whit -3 or -5 power level penalty. Or speed and/or recovery penalty (20%?)

On 2/23/2025 at 7:07 AM, ShadyDax said:

We could make Shifter to have an infinite duration of Spiritshift, and the ability to transform into any form unlimited number of times per combat (without any cooldown)

I think it is too much. I'd prefer long duration but you can choose one form, which you prefer among all, for one encounter.

On 2/23/2025 at 7:07 AM, ShadyDax said:

But that also leads to the question of - should we add more Spiritshift abilities like this on the progression table of a Shifter, and if so, at what cost? Or should such abilities come only from multiclassing?

I believe all animals/forms should have one passive and one active abilities, also overlapping, all balanced with each other. For all spiritshifts, all druids, all subclass either multi or not. They should be spiritshifts "features", not dependent by class or other questions.

[Kaylon]

Making spiritshifting work like a modal and removing healing is something I was also thinking about and for me it is perfectly fine. Of course keep the melee oriented specifics and prevent casting while shifted (being able to shift back and forth can alleviate some of the drawbacks anyway). In the case of the infinite spiritshift having short buffs doesn't make much sense and it would be preferable to replace them with some weaker passives maybe. Specific items would be the icing on the cake. 

[Phatrollerknight]

On 2/24/2025 at 1:39 PM, Chaospread said:

Hi, good catch. I'd improve spiritshifts for all subclass and plain druids

Spellcast allowed but whit -3 or -5 power level penalty. Or speed and/or recovery penalty (20%?)

I think it is too much. I'd prefer long duration but you can choose one form, which you prefer among all, for one encounter.

I believe all animals/forms should have one passive and one active abilities, also overlapping, all balanced with each other. For all spiritshifts, all druids, all subclass either multi or not. They should be spiritshifts "features", not dependent by class or other questions.

20% recovery feels too low as that's just Robes and spiritshift hides aren't weak. Base robe is 3 AR, Legendary robes are 7. Spiritshifthides are all 8 AR for all dmg types to begin with and +1 scaling every 4 levels. 13 AR across the board at lv20 with no recovery malus and Bear gets +2 AR on top.  

[Chaospread]

3 hours ago, Phatrollerknight said:

20% recovery feels too low as that's just Robes and spiritshift hides aren't weak. Base robe is 3 AR, Legendary robes are 7. Spiritshifthides are all 8 AR for all dmg types to begin with and +1 scaling every 4 levels. 13 AR across the board at lv20 with no recovery malus and Bear gets +2 AR on top.  

Ok, you can raise the value to 40 or 50%, or better, leave the armor recovery as it is now (or just 20%, or like 35% armor) and put 40%/50% speed penalty when you are not using your animal attack or abilities (thus spellcasting and/or character abilities of human shape, watcher abilities and so on...).

[ShadyDax]

On 2/25/2025 at 11:56 PM, Kaylon said:

Making spiritshifting work like a modal and removing healing is something I was also thinking about and for me it is perfectly fine. Of course keep the melee oriented specifics and prevent casting while shifted (being able to shift back and forth can alleviate some of the drawbacks anyway). In the case of the infinite spiritshift having short buffs doesn't make much sense and it would be preferable to replace them with some weaker passives maybe. Specific items would be the icing on the cake. 

Yeah that's kind of what I'm currently considering. Initially, my main issue with Shifter was that it's actually worse than other druids during the shift, without spellcasting. Even if you're not going to spend much time of the shift casting spells, being able to cast a quick healing spell, or renew an ongoing buff or aoe spell is really nice, and it hurts to lose that playstyle / convenience after going through the first Pillars where it was possible, even with a shifting-focused druid.

But after exploring some other options, and looking at what people say (over there on reddit as well), I think I'm fine with the idea of no spellcasting while shifted (for a Shifter), if we make shifting itself much better and more flexible. We just cannot do both (allowed spellcasting AND flexible shifting) as it would require some alternative penalty for this subclass, such as removal of at least some (if not all) bonus subclass spells - and that is a little too much. Also, someone raised a valid point that with allowed spellcasting and unlimited shifting, it would become better to just always stay in a beast form and basically be a faster and more tankier druid, while casting spells - and it would also remove some of the theme and actual fighting purpose of the beast forms. And on the other hand, there's still a problem of armor and weapons PL bonuses not persisting through Spiritshift, and unless we fix that (which is a monumental task in the scope of the whole game, unless we tackle only a few most important items), it will still be better to drop the form to gain the increased PL and cast spells. So it's kind of not here nor there.

But if we keep not allowed spellcasting, and make shifting unlimited, then you can always drop the form, cast the spells and shift back. Which is not such a huge penalty anymore - and more importantly, at least for me, doesn't make you lose the current beast form (for the remainder of the fight) if you have to cast a quick spell - which was one  of my issues with the subclass.

So this is where I am; I'm fine with no spellcasting, if Shifter has an actually better shifting. And when I say better - it should be much more flexible, and without limitations - not that the beast forms themselves should be MUCH better. We don't want to make druid a better fighter than other martial classes. As other martials have their different niches, Shifter could be able to adapt to the combat situation, by choosing the right form - with similar features to other classes maybe, as needed; and be able to switch between them back and forth.

As an example how it would it work,
- start the combat with some spells, shift to Cat form to deal with casters
- then shift to Bear form and off-tank a little bit
- then switch to Stag form to deal with a pack of enemies
- then switch to caster form, renew some spells, cast some healing
- switch back to Bear form - as maybe your main tank died - wait until you get healed back up and main tank gets revived
- switch back to Cat form to deal with a boss

Edited 1 hour ago by ShadyDax

[ShadyDax]

That said, such flexible shifting would require removal of active abilities (gained upon shifting) as I previously established - or you would gain them again and again, past the limit of 1 per encounter.

I've been exploring some ideas as to how such active abilities could be implemented - maybe as a replacement of some bonus subclass spells, similar to how Skaen priests gain Escape and Finishing Blow, with a spell cost; or simply as an additional ability that you always have, but can only use in a certain beast form. The problem is - it steps a little too much on other martial classes features, and I'm not sure that's a good idea. As I said, I don't want Shifter to be a better martial than actual martial classes - it is still a full spellcaster. And I want Shifter to be great at multiclassing with actual martials - if we add their abilities, or similar abilities, it would make multiclassing much less enticing.

Nevertheless, here some ideas I had, in case we ever come back to it:
- Beastial Roar - basically the same as previous Bear's Roar (and if it costs a spell, it could be similar to Barbaric Yell) - available to Bear, and maybe to Cat form as well?
- Beastial Rush - could be a Charge like ability for the Boar form; maybe with a bleeding attack at the end of it?
- Beastial Flurry - similar to Cat's Flurry as before (or monk's Swift Strikes) - bonus action speed buff, that should only be active during spiritshift, and not persist after it - so that it's not used for spellcasting - available to Cat, and maybe Wolf form?
- Beastial Knockdown (or some such) - actually much more fitting for the Stag form, rather than Wolf.
- Beastial Pounce - could be something like Crippling Strike, for a Wolf.
- Beastial Ram (or some such) - Stag's Charge ability, similar to Charge or maybe barbarian's Ram's Spring - maybe without Nimble inspiration, but with the shove of enemies around, which is quite fitting.

I feel like some active abilities, such as Charge for the Boar form, would be better than any passive feature, to perfectly match what the beast is about; it is hard to come up with proper passive features for this form in particular. So maybe there's some way to add these, but it shouldn't be done only for 1 form - or it would be best to shift to that form, use that active ability, and shift to something else.

[ShadyDax]

Another problem with druids in Pillars 2--as someone on that thread rightfully pointed out--is that they kind of lost their main advantage - their versatility, now that other other classes can multiclass to cover different things, and be able to both fight in melee and cast spells, do healing, and such. Now druid is one of the worst at that - with the limited duration of Spiritshift, or in the case of Shifter - without spellcasting.

As such, I think it would be fair to improve the flexibility of ALL druids a little - I would allow them to shift into any form, but still only ONE per combat; instead of choosing only one form at character creation. With a rework to the beast forms themselves, it would give them more flexibility as well.

[ShadyDax]

Back to the Shifter.

Without these active abilities, and with such flexible shifting, all forms would have to be reworked with passive features that would define their roles. As I said, I want shifting to be more meaningful, so that each form has some kind of niche. I also want to give them features that would better match what that beast is about in real life.

I also don't like how in vanilla, the Cat form is the best for base druids (not Shifters) because of faster spellcasting, or maybe Stag form - because of defensives. I would like the forms to be defined by their fighting capabilities. Well, we remove the Cat's Flurry - so that should be fixed.

Passive features - here some ideas, but that's not all of it, as I'll discuss below:
Bear - I think it's perfectly fine, the bonus AR fits nice, and bonus engagement makes it better for a role of a tank form. I would prob make it +2 bonus Engagement though.
Boar - It is really hard to come up with something fitting here - as I think an active ability such as Charge would be the best fit. The vanilla regeneration in my opinion doesn't make a lot of sense - I would remove it, and if we want to keep it more tanky, it could also have +2 AR, the same as Bear. And it should have something else, prob more offensive - I don't think bleeding is quite fitting here, but I'm open for more ideas.
Wolf - In vanilla this form has more focus on movement speed - getting to the backline of enemies, and using Knockdown for some disruption. I think, if anything, Knockdown would be more fitting for the Stag form, and movement speed may not be the best fit, or interesting enough. I guess we could play a little into the theme of a pack hunter - with an accuracy bonus when attacking the same target with allies? And something more. I would say, if we kept regeneration, it would be more fitting here, than for the Boar form.
Cat - I think we keep faster base recovery for attacks, and I would add bleeding from attacks (as Boar has in vanilla), both of these are quite fitting.
Stag - I would implement Carnage in the same way as Community Patch does - the same as barbarian's Carnage, with 20% instead of 33% damage, and with slower scaling. Besides that, I think a bonus to deflection would fit quite well here - as the form is actively more disrupting, it is hard to get to harm stag with those massive antlers in front; and it would be nice for it to be  a little more tanky, as it is meant to stand against pack of enemies. As for the vanilla bonus to all defensives - I think it's a little problematic (makes the form better for spellcasters), and it's not quite thematic, as it's just a bonus to everything; it would've been much more thematic if it was a bonus fitting for the beast; in this case - probably, Fortitude.

Yeah, that's another idea - what if each form had such a bonus, maybe around +4 or +6,
- Bear - Fortitude
- Boar - Fortitude
- Wolf - Reflex
- Cat - Reflex
- Stag - Fortitude
That would be more fitting, and would make sense.

I also think that Stag form should have Piercing/Crush damage type - looking at the animations and force with which it attacks, it makes a lot of sense; and would fix it being useless against a lot of undead encounters.

That said, Wolf form could also have Slash damage - but probably as a separate set of weapons, with Claws - with proper animations and such, and so that you can switch between them. Same goes for the Cat form, but the other way around. I'll look into it, whether I'll be able to implement that - and if not, I guess we can just make their base attack Pierce/Slash.

Now, coming back to Passive Features - as I mentioned, that's not all of it. One of the other things that Spiritshift is missing - are weapon modal abilities. These could play really well into the theme of beasts, and it would be more valid to add, as we don't just add more and more to them - it is genuinely a thing that they are missing.
- As an example, Bleeding Cut (from battle axe) can be used for bleeding effect of the Cat form, instead of it being a passive feature.
- Interfering Strikes (from hatchet) - which applies a penalty to accuracy - is perfect for the theme I was going for the Stag form. Or it can be a similar feature from quarterstaff, Defensive Strike - which grants deflection bonus at the cost of recovery.
- Rending Smash (from mace) - which applies a penalty to AR at the cost of recovery, is fitting and would be great to make Bear form a little more offensive, but mostly by giving allies better attacks, than by itself.
- Windmill Slash (from stiletto/sabre/warhammer) - which grants +2 Penetration at the cost of recovery, would be fitting for a Wolf form.
- Not sure about Boar form, again - maybe Interfering Strikes, Bleeding Cut, or Savage Attacker. Savage Attacker fits thematically, but doesn't it suck?

Edited 4 hours ago by ShadyDax

[ShadyDax]

Still figuring out a good set of passives + weapon modal.

How about something like this:
Bear - +2 AR, +1 (or +2) Engagement, Rending Smash.
Boar - +2 AR, Interfering Strikes, Savage Attacker (we give it two modals).
Wolf - bonus accuracy when attacking same enemy as an ally, Windmill Slash.
Cat - faster recovery rate, Bleeding Cut.
Stag - Carnage, +1 Engagement, Defensive Strike (or Carnage, bonus deflection, Interfering Strikes).

We can also make something more interesting and give them passive features similar to what we get from armor enchantments (especially considering that druids don't get any during Spiritshift), but that may be a little too much, and I'm trying to be careful not to make them too powerful. The 0% recovery and a pretty good DR is already a good "enchantment" by itself.

I especially struggle with Boar form. Any suggestions?

Of course, further improvement will be made with a rework of Wildstrike, and better itemisation in the future. There will prob be an item that gives HP regen during Spiritshift, for example. Maybe some items that give abilities 'per encounter' during Spiritshift? And of course, in late game, Changeling's Mantle - which will be very much focused on Spiritshift.

Edited 1 hour ago by ShadyDax

[Chaospread]

I like the "passive" bonus enhancement for spiritshifts. Here's my ideas in italic.

Bear - +2 AR, +1 (or +2) Engagement, Rending Smash.  --> I 'd like a block modal as medium shields, maybe +1 engagement and block or something similar, with +2 AR and no Rending Smash.
Boar - +2 AR, Interfering Strikes, Savage Attacker (we give it two modals). --> Overbearing shot instead of Savage Attack, savage attack is thought for a 2 hand weapons, Overbearing shot also but I think it simulate a boar charge (which is its main feature in the real world). The rest is ok.
Wolf - bonus accuracy when attacking same enemy as an ally, Windmill Slash. --> ok
Cat - faster recovery rate, Bleeding Cut. --> I think this could become the strongest form with these 2 passives. Maybe instead a full faster recovery rate, a modal like Rapid Shot, more speed with a ACC penalty. Bleeding Cut ok.
Stag - Carnage, +1 Engagement, Deflective Strike (or Carnage, bonus deflection, Interfering Strikes). --> You mean Defensive Strike. I'd say Carnage, +1 Engagement and Defensive Strike.

Edited 1 hour ago by Chaospread

[ShadyDax]

33 minutes ago, Chaospread said:

Bear - +2 AR, +1 (or +2) Engagement, Rending Smash.  --> I 'd like a block modal as medium shields, maybe +1 engagement and block or something similar.

+2 AR together with the Block modal may be too much defensively, and I would like to keep some balance between offensive and defensive, hence Rending Smash (and I think it fits better).

33 minutes ago, Chaospread said:

Boar - +2 AR, Interfering Strikes, Savage Attacker (we give it two modals). --> Overbearing shot instead of Savage Attack, savage attack is thought for a 2 hand weapons, Overbearing shot also but I think it simulate a boar charge (which is its main feature in the real world)

Keep in mind that Overbearing is a modal for Arbalest, which is a very slow weapon. Boar attacks are much, much faster - it is still dual wielding, so it would be quite OP unless we make the action speed penalty HUGE. I'm not sure it's a good idea - though I like the idea of somehow incorporating charge / knock prone for Boar.

33 minutes ago, Chaospread said:

Cat - faster recovery rate, Bleeding Cut. --> I think this could become the strongest form with these 2 passives. Maybe instead a full faster recovery rate, a modal like Rapid Shot, more speed with a ACC penalty.

I think a faster recovery rate is fine, as it is only for melee, and it would be the same as vanilla. You're suggesting to replace that with a modal like Rapid Shot, with a penalty to accuracy? Ideally, I would like to keep at least 1 passive featur, and 1 weapon modal for each form - and Bleeding Cut is a modal. It also comes with a penalty to recovery speed, which kind of offsets Cat's passive faster recovery rate, so it shouldn't be too much?

Edited 49 minutes ago by ShadyDax