Spiritshift and Shifter rework / improvements discussion

[ShadyDax]

Hey guys, I'm a mod developer (and author of Druid Wild Shape Overhaul - as an example of my work), currently working on a Spiritshift and Shifter druid rework / improvements mod.  
  
I just want to open a discussion and see some opinions and ideas as to how Shifter and Spiritshift could be improved and/or reworked.

To start off, I'll give you some of my starting points:
- Shifter doesn't present an actual improvement to Spiritshift fighting capabilities. I would argue that the inability to cast spells during the shift actually makes it considerably worse, and the better duration and more forms do not outweigh that. More forms usually means you would only use two of "the best" forms at most, with other forms potentially used as a source of healing - healing that is worse than an ability to cast some of the quick spells such as Nature's Balm and Taste of the Hunt and such.  
- Some of the subclasses are better or more distinct thanks to their higher level spells or features. Shifter doesn't get anything like that - and the last Wildstrike upgrade doesn't seem to be worth it, it's not strong enough to entice going single class druid (or take it at all for that matter, even when single classed).  
- Spiritshift by itself has a problem of not benefitting from some of the gear (armour and weapon slot) - even with the ability to cast spells during the shift, it would still be better to drop it and cast Plants and Beasts / Rejuvenation spells out of Spiritshift, when wielding the The Spine of Thicket Green. I will discuss a potential solution for this below.  
- One of the reasons why Spiritshift doesn't scale well in this game, is because of the lack of itemization. It was actually a little better in the first game - with the Wildstrike Belt and Sanguine Plate, as an example. In this game, we have some thematically fitting items that could be reworked to support late game spiritshifting better (such as Changeling Mantle), and we could also add more items like this.

I'm considering a few points of improvement:
- We could make spellcasting during Spiritshift available for a Shifter. But that would require some alternative penalty for this subclass - I'm interested in any ideas.  
- We could make Shifter to have an infinite duration of Spiritshift, and the ability to transform into any form unlimited number of times per combat (without any cooldown). Of course, that would require removal of the healing (when you drop the form) which I'm more than fine with, especially if we get spellcasting back. That would enable a really cool, true experience of shifting back and forth depending on the combat situation: first dealing with a strong enemy in a Cat form, then dealing with a pack of mobs in a Stag form, then switching to a Bear form to tank some hits and get back to good health, and then back to Cat form to deal with the boss - as an example. I love the idea, but it would also require a rework to some of the form's abilities that would get refreshed upon re-transformation to the same form in the same combat (such as Cat's Flurry or Wolf's Knockdown) - but that's also what I plan to do anyway.  
- Yeah, I'm thinking about giving all forms more passive features, such as regeneration to a Wolf form, and bleeding dot from attacks to a Cat form (instead of their Knockdown and Flurry abilities). Cat's Flurry in particular is problematic as it makes the form much better for spellcasting - and I would like to keep the form's capabilities more restricted to actual fighting. I'm also considering adding the more active abilities (like Bear's Roar and Wolf's Knockdown) available for all forms, with the same limit of use per encounter; there's no reason a Cat form wouldn't be able to roar, or Stag form wouldn't be able to knockdown an enemy - it is huge af. But that also leads to the question of - should we add more Spiritshift abilities like this on the progression table of a Shifter, and if so, at what cost? Or should such abilities come only from multiclassing?  
- I mentioned above the problem of not getting PL bonuses/effects from weapons and gear, during Spiritshift. I guess that could be fixed with a slight rework/addition to how these items function. They could provide a buff that is only activated during Spiritshift, and gives the same PL bonuses.

As for alternative penalties, for this subclass - to outweight some of this stuff, I only have one idea - removal of the subclass spells (that are automatically granted at each PL). Maybe Spiritshift abilities, as mentioned above, could replace that?  

Anyhow, I'm interested in hearing from people with experience of playing a druid - what you think about some of these ideas, and if you have any other suggestions. If this discussion proves interesting and useful, I might make more posts like this for my future mods. One of which would be for Animal Companion improvement.

I'm making this post here, rather than in the mods section, because I'm more intersted in a discussion of a class/subclass and gameplay features, rather than technical implementation. I hope it's alright.

[Constentin Lévine]

While shifted, you have naturally not access to your weapon's sets and your armor' goodies ; if you make Shifter not allowed to wear armor and weapon at all (so they should be nude when not -shifted) that can justify the infinite duration of the spiritshift. What do you think?

[Chaospread]

Hi, good catch. I'd improve spiritshifts for all subclass and plain druids

On 2/23/2025 at 7:07 AM, ShadyDax said:

We could make spellcasting during Spiritshift available for a Shifter. But that would require some alternative penalty for this subclass - I'm interested in any ideas.

Spellcast allowed but whit -3 or -5 power level penalty. Or speed and/or recovery penalty (20%?)

On 2/23/2025 at 7:07 AM, ShadyDax said:

We could make Shifter to have an infinite duration of Spiritshift, and the ability to transform into any form unlimited number of times per combat (without any cooldown)

I think it is too much. I'd prefer long duration but you can choose one form, which you prefer among all, for one encounter.

On 2/23/2025 at 7:07 AM, ShadyDax said:

But that also leads to the question of - should we add more Spiritshift abilities like this on the progression table of a Shifter, and if so, at what cost? Or should such abilities come only from multiclassing?

I believe all animals/forms should have one passive and one active abilities, also overlapping, all balanced with each other. For all spiritshifts, all druids, all subclass either multi or not. They should be spiritshifts "features", not dependent by class or other questions.

[Kaylon]

Making spiritshifting work like a modal and removing healing is something I was also thinking about and for me it is perfectly fine. Of course keep the melee oriented specifics and prevent casting while shifted (being able to shift back and forth can alleviate some of the drawbacks anyway). In the case of the infinite spiritshift having short buffs doesn't make much sense and it would be preferable to replace them with some weaker passives maybe. Specific items would be the icing on the cake. 

[Phatrollerknight]

On 2/24/2025 at 1:39 PM, Chaospread said:

Hi, good catch. I'd improve spiritshifts for all subclass and plain druids

Spellcast allowed but whit -3 or -5 power level penalty. Or speed and/or recovery penalty (20%?)

I think it is too much. I'd prefer long duration but you can choose one form, which you prefer among all, for one encounter.

I believe all animals/forms should have one passive and one active abilities, also overlapping, all balanced with each other. For all spiritshifts, all druids, all subclass either multi or not. They should be spiritshifts "features", not dependent by class or other questions.

20% recovery feels too low as that's just Robes and spiritshift hides aren't weak. Base robe is 3 AR, Legendary robes are 7. Spiritshifthides are all 8 AR for all dmg types to begin with and +1 scaling every 4 levels. 13 AR across the board at lv20 with no recovery malus and Bear gets +2 AR on top.  

[Chaospread]

3 hours ago, Phatrollerknight said:

20% recovery feels too low as that's just Robes and spiritshift hides aren't weak. Base robe is 3 AR, Legendary robes are 7. Spiritshifthides are all 8 AR for all dmg types to begin with and +1 scaling every 4 levels. 13 AR across the board at lv20 with no recovery malus and Bear gets +2 AR on top.  

Ok, you can raise the value to 40 or 50%, or better, leave the armor recovery as it is now (or just 20%, or like 35% armor) and put 40%/50% speed penalty when you are not using your animal attack or abilities (thus spellcasting and/or character abilities of human shape, watcher abilities and so on...).