Dump stat for a Bleak Walker build?

[Opus132]

So i wanted to try the following build or something close to it: 

However, i'm playing on PoTD in Expert Mode, and since i'm not going to be able to know all the stat requirements for all dialog checks before hand i'd like to at least have 14 base resolve so i can cover most cases just by applying some basic bonuses before hand and keep my resolve as high as i can at all times.  

Now, i instinctively feel for a build like that i can just dump dexterity and maybe constitution too, but i'm not sure if there are "caveats" i'm not aware of yet. I wouldn't mind being able to raise perception too a bit but i think that would just be pushing it.

[EDIT] Upon further reflection, it seems the question of whether dexterity is useful or not is whether anything else a Paladin does after unloading FoD is worth actually boosting. Am i correct? 

 

Edited April 19 by Opus132

[Opus132]

Ok, so after reading up here and there it seems dexterity actually matters after all as autoattacks aren't completely useless with this build. 

So the actual dump stats would be constitution and resolve, if i were to min/max this to hell to increase dps as much as possible. 

[Chaospread]

Yes, unless particularly cases, dump stats are always CON and RES, DEX for martial class is always a MAX o nearly MAX

[Opus132]

Alright, so let's assume i start with this (as a human with living lands background): 

20 8 18 18 10 4 

I could dump con to 3 and raise int to 15 to really make the ultimate glass cannon but i don't know if i really want to go that way.  

So now i get to 13, get sacred immotation and want to respec to an high int, dropping dexterity since perception is useful for sacred immolation.

OR, if i wanted to make a build that doesn't require respecing, i could go like this: 

20 8 16 15 15 4

Or any variation of thereof giving or taking out of dex, per or int depending on how i feel like it. 

[Chaospread]

Keep in mind that little variation on distribution attribute doesn't waste a run, I did several run in PotD SOLO and I never set CON and RES below 6/7 both, and it worked also with a Paladin.

In doubt, I'll keep a no-respec distribution, fair attribute values (15/16) can fit. You can also max PER and not MIG, but, as I said, little variation (3/4 points) doesn't invalidate a run

If you wanna more INT, i.e., you could do 6 CON and 17 INT... and so on... finally, don't bother much on that

[Boeroer]

If you are one of the front line characters and taking a lot of heat, dumping RES can be a problem, even for a Paladin in thick armor and still mediocre deflection despite the RES dump - because RES also determines concentration. Especially if you get attacked by multiple fast enemies you can get interrupt-locked because the chance of you getting interrupted will be very high.

This - as well as getting knocked out more often due to less deflection - can lead to a drop of actual dps (the one you really do vs. the one you'd do on paper). It's one of the reasons why Rogues are in theory the masters of dps while in the actual game they are often not - unless you can reliably play aronud their weaknesses. This will also be the case here: if you play such a Paladin as a flanker he will perform a lot better than just letting him get attacked too much. 

But since a Paladin comes with a nice set of defensive capabilities already and piling defenses has increasing returns I often think it's a bit of a waste to make a Paladin a total glasscannon instead of a reliable and sturdy damage dealer (+support character). Not the best at dealing weapon damage besides the two big FoD strikes (and a Runner's Wouding Shot if you like and maybe a Knockdown strike from a belt item) - but also most likely one of the last ones to go down. 

I personally really like the mix of sturdy, two handed (spike) damage + accuracy support for a fellow front liner which can totally turn the tides against tough enemies. This I'll achieve with a "marking" two hander (Blade of the Endless Paths & Spectacular Spetum would be the optimal two handed sets) and Coordinated Attacks plus Zealous Focus. If you flank an enemy with a buddy (preferrably one with good CC options to keep the foe disabled) that buddy will get +25 accuracy just because you are there - and you'll drop the enemy's deflection by 10, too (flanked) which usually makes it way easier to finish them off. Best pick would be Darcozzi Paladini (because Inspiring Exhortation stacks with all this, too) - but Bleak Walker works as well as any other Paladin order and of course gives your FoD more oomph. Best weapon pick for the buddy would be Cladhaliath with "Stunning" + "Coordinating" enchantments. But any weapon with Overbearing or Stunning would be great (like Hours of St. Rumbalt). Or if your buddy has unlimited CC anyways (see Monk's Force of Anguish) then any single handed, high ACC weapon would be great, too (see Ravenwing for example). Also a special interrupt weapon such as Mosquito or the Vile Loner's Lance can be great on fast attcking buddies with high PER and Interrupting Blows (talent), interrupt-locking the enemy without using any resources (interrupt rolls get a +25 bonus if your buddy crits). Delivering crits even to dragons and such is rel. easy if you pile up Marking, Coordinated Attacks, Zealous Focus, one handed weapon usage an accurate weapon and a Priest's Inspiring Radiance + Devotions for the Faithful. Ifyour buddy is a Cipher with Tactical Meld + Borrowed Instincts things get really ridiculous as his accuracy will pile up into unknown heights, allowing almost guaranteed critical hits.  

It's not as useful against numerous little foes, but that's what AoE is for most of times (see Sacred Immolation but of course your fellows' AoE abilities also). Against foes like dragons etc. this ACC support that doesn't use any resources and stacks with every other ACC buff (except the part of Zealous Focus) is very valuable and a lot more reliable than pure (glasscannonish) dps imo.

Edited April 22 by Boeroer

[Opus132]

That's interesting, didn't think about interrupt being a factor. I knew there had to be a catch because it felt too easy. 

So i'm basically better off just go with this slight variation over the stat distribution of that Bleak Walker build: 

20 8 10 15 15 10

Or something along those lines (dump constitution even further, sqeeze some points to dexterity etc). This is if i want to try a no respec challenge meaning this distribution would have to carry me before AND after level 13. With 10 resolve and some buffs from food etc i could double as off-tank on a pinch by keeping a 1h weapon and the Outworn Shield on my second weapons slot. I was going all out on damage because of the "theme" of the Bleak Walker being a killer but maybe i better play it safe. I'm playing on PoTD with Expert Mode on while also trying to do as little reloading as possible, sort of training myself for a future Iron Mode run that's why i'm trying to power game a bit. 

BTW, i tried a Darcozzi two-handed build a couple of years ago but i never finished that playthrough because of various circumstances. I decided to go for a Bleak Walker this time around specifically to try something different, not in terms of class per-se but roleplaying style. Of course, i suppose there's nothing prevent me from trying around two-handed weapons even with this build, at least until i get the two-weapon style talent or i get my hands on Bittercut. 

Edited April 22 by Opus132

[Opus132]

BTW, i don't know if should ask here but the relevant threads in this forum are so old now i don't know if bumping them would be considered an act of necromancy. 

I just want to make sure i understand how attack speed works in this game. 

I understand there are different aspects to an attack, which is the attack itself, the recovery, some kind of brief idle time between the two, and then if you use guns you got reloading to worry about. From what i understand, all the speed bonuses in the game only affect recovery (i think there's also some that affects reloading time for guns not sure), while dexterity affects ALL of them. 

I also understand the dexterity bonus is linear, meaning there's no diminishing returns or anything like that. Every point you put in dexterity is just as valuable as the one that came before all the way to however high you can get dexterity in this game. 

However, i also read somewhere that it's actually possible to drop recovery to zero, thus making the dexterity bonus less effective? Would that come into play when deciding how much dexterity you want on your character from a min/max perspective? Not on a paladin i guess but maybe for a rogue. 

I also understand accuracy COULD potentially become less valuable if you get it high enough but it would have to be so high as to make the question academic, right? I also remember reading somewhere (God knows where, it was two years ago) that if you keep piling on damage modifiers, the value of accuracy is diminished. I think it was something like that, if you aren't gonna get crits (say, on PoTD, where you would need a very high accuracy), you might as well pile on damage on hits and graces, which seems relevant to the Bleak Walker build Blunderboss devised, with all those lashes, corrodes etc. 

I understand even on PoTD getting super obsessed about min/maxing isn't necessary, but i find this theorycrafting stuff entertaining on it's own (also, i'm currently in limbo since the patch is coming). 

Edited April 23 by Opus132

[Opus132]

Alright, found this: 

 

Quote

 

Yeah. So it's totally cool to give a melee dps guy who is normally not exposed to attacks 0 recovery AND high DEX.

It's just so that most melee frontliners can use a bit of CON and RES and therefore need to lower some other stats - and DEX is the least painful for a dual wielder with fancy speed buffs (or so it seems).

 

 

I guess there's no need to repeat yourself, heh. 

 

Edited April 23 by Opus132

[Boeroer]

If you want to play around with settings such a DEX, items etc. in order to get a feeling for attack speed in PoE you can try this attack speed calculator which gives you the resulting frames:

https://naijaro.github.io/poe-speed-calculator/

There you can also see that DEX has its returns even if recovery is zero - because it still shortens animation time.

Several attack speed buffs (which only target recovery as you said correctly) stack in a multiplicative way, giving you increasing returns - which makes it possible to drop recovery to zero frames. For example item buffs (speed on weapons or something like Gauntlets of Swift Action or Durgan Steel on weapons) will always stack with everything else in that way. 
 

Edited April 23 by Boeroer

[Chaospread]

If you wanna learn more about speed, there is also this topic:

 

[Opus132]

Yeah, i saw that dexterity is still usefull even if you reach zero recovery but according to the math there it's not AS useful at that point meaning if there's an hard choice between dexterity and something like perception you can opt for the latter assuming you can reach zero recovery by other means:

Quote

 

Imagine several dual-wielding sabres characters:

Andy has 10 DEX and no speed buffs: 5d + 30 + 25 = 60 frames

Bob has 20 DEX and no speed buffs: 5d + 23 + 19.3 = 47.3

Charles has 3 DEX and no speed buffs: 5d + 38 + 31.6 = 74.6

 

David has 10 DEX and zero recovery: 5d + 30 = 35

Edwin has 20 DEX and zero recovery: 5d + 23 = 28

Fred has 3 DEX and zero recovery: 5d + 38 = 43

 

Since all stats seem to be useful for something, min/maxing appear to be possible only if putting points in a stat isn't as valuable as before based on some specific circumstance. On that dual wielding paladin, the fact i can make dexterity less valuable if i were to achieve zero recovery means i can focus on perception more to boost FoD or Sacred Immolation. If i were to make a two handed paladin, it might be worth it more to trade some perception to boost dexterity and so on. Then again, maybe it's possible to reach a point where accuracy starts to get diminishing returns as well meaning you are back to square one.

Same concept if i were to make a dual wielding rogue, and i had to make a choice between dexterity or might, i might pick the latter to help me punch through DR IF i were to reach zero recovery meaning i'm not getting as much out of dexterity as before. 

This game is pretty hard to figure out from a min/max point of view btw, and i'm assuming that was by design. 

Edited April 24 by Opus132

[dunehunter]

43 minutes ago, Opus132 said:

Yeah, i saw that dexterity is still usefull even if you reach zero recovery but according to the math there it's not AS useful at that point meaning if there's an hard choice between dexterity and something like perception you can opt for the latter assuming you can reach zero recovery by other means:

Since all stats seem to be useful for something, min/maxing appear to be possible only if putting points in a stat isn't as valuable as before based on some specific circumstance. On that dual wielding paladin, the fact i can make dexterity less valuable if i were to achieve zero recovery means i can focus on perception more to boost FoD or Sacred Immolation. If i were to make a two handed paladin, it might be worth it more to trade some perception to boost dexterity and so on. Then again, maybe it's possible to reach a point where accuracy starts to get diminishing returns as well meaning you are back to square one.

Same concept if i were to make a dual wielding rogue, and i had to make a choice between dexterity or might, i might pick the latter to help me punch through DR IF i were to reach zero recovery meaning i'm not getting as much out of dexterity as before. 

This game is pretty hard to figure out from a min/max point of view btw, and i'm assuming that was by design. 

I think one need to understand that Paladin is not a good auto attacker, since it has no passive ability that boost it's attacking power. The only dps ability paladin has is FoD and Sacred Immolation. And both are not affected by DEX(you can argure that DEX makes FoD animation faster but that's really small impact imo).

The best stats to boost FoD/SI is Might and PER, follow by INT. If you are playing in a team, INT is not that important since battle usually ends before your SI ends. Therefore you can priorty stats like this MIG/PER >> INT > CON/DEX/RES imho. So CON and RES are best bet to dump if you really wanna make them auto attack better.

Edited April 24 by dunehunter

[Chaospread]

DEX is an ability to raise at max levels if you want/can, between 20 DEX or 15 DEX and no recovery, you can choose 15 with not great disadvantage imho. Speed isn't only useful for DPS but i.e. you can interrupt enemy BEFORE it does, or you can debuff it before it. I like PGs with high DEX for these reasons. So I'd not go lower than 15 DEX, but 10 DEX is also a possible value (especially in a party).

About PER, Paladin can buff accuracy well, so I'd prefer MIG against PER, and the game is balanced versus 10 PER value (also in PotD), so between MIG and PER I'd go for MIG 20 and PER 15 i.e.

PER is more important early level anyway, but these are personal decision/thoughts imho, let PER high, respec... Early level can be achieved also with not many combats, thus keep in mind a strategy also when you think at attributes.

[Opus132]

4 hours ago, dunehunter said:

I think one need to understand that Paladin is not a good auto attacker, since it has no passive ability that boost it's attacking power.

I guess this depends on just how bad auto attacks are on a paladin. Whether they are just underwhelming compared to DPS classes but still worth boosting if possible or whether they are just so outright useless as to make it not worth it to even bother with them at all (just dump dexterity altoghether and play tank after popping both FoD attacks). 

Looking at Blunderboss's build and i see he has some items that improve attack speed. Is Sacred Immolation affected by attack speed? If not, why bother? Why bother even take two weapon style, if it's all about maximing FoD (you want dual wielding because FoD hits twice but not two weapon style as such)? Since you get two Flames of Devotion per fight it's not like speed matters, you can just use it when you know it's gonna land at the right time you want it to land. 

Of course, since the priority is Sacred Immolation, and since you don't get many points left to spread between dexterity and perception (even if you dump constitution and resolve), this may be just an academic question.

Blunderboss leaves all the stats at 10 but suggests to dump intellect and raise perception a bit before getting to level 13, which does suggest he doesn't think dexterity is that important for his build (or not as important as perception for early on). If i start with his stat distribution, take out 5 points by dumping both constitution and resolve a bit, and put in dexterity, would that be worth doing? Or are auto attacks on a paladin so worthless as to make even a small loss in constituon and resolve not worth the trade off? 

Edited April 24 by Opus132

[Chaospread]

FoD is a finite resource so you often end auto-attacking so DEX is never a bad choise. Low CON could be bad for Sacred immolation, but at last levels you have plenty of health so you can't bother with that. Low INT with last patch are no so effective, but INT is not so important for a Paladin a part of aura radius.

[Opus132]

BTW, sorry for all this idle talk but i'm keeping myself occupied while i wait for this patch (hoping the "coming weeks" doesn't translate into months). 

Anyway, i'm thinking with a lower constitution (say around 8 or 7) i might trigger fighting spirit faster. I heard you can actually get one shot by some enemies with a constitution of 8, but if you are popping Sacred Immolation you gonna be below that threshold anyway meaning you are already playing your paladin like a rogue, getting into melee range but avoiding actual melee engagement if possible. In fact, given how deflection works it would even feel like playing a rogue of sort.  

Reguarding lowering resolve, there's that low level potion that gives you a good boost in concentration so i could afford to lower it a bit and use that if interrupt is an issue. 

I could lower constitution to say 7, resolve to 8, and put those 5 extra points for dexterity and perception. There's also three permanent stat bonuses in the game (one involves having a cruel disposition but that's a no brainer for a Bleak Walker) where i would end up with at least 14-15 in dexterity, perception and intellect to be boosted further with items, food and buffs depending on the situation. 

 

Edited April 24 by Opus132

[Opus132]

BTW, one thing i'm confused about in the build. The Sanguine Armor triggers a frenzy effect when you are subject to a crit. 

Can the self damage from Sacred Immolation actually crit you? Because i can't imagine this build hinges on enemies critting your paladin, especially with Sacred Immolation on i don't think you want enemies to hit you if you can help it. 

[Boeroer]

41 minutes ago, Opus132 said:

Can the self damage from Sacred Immolation actually crit you? 

No, it cannot. You need an enemy to land a crit. But it can be any crit, including spells, auras and so on and it doesn't matter which of your defenses is targeted. If your defenses are not superhigh it happens often enough. Still I would not use that armor if I wanted to focus on damage-dealing as a Paladin. Maybe I'd pick Outlander's Frenzy instead if I wanted shorter recovery. At least that's controllable.    

Edited April 24 by Boeroer

[Opus132]

Alright, i think i got the gist of it:

1) Paladin autoattacks are weak no matter what and if you are boosting them it's only because there's not much else the paladin can do anyway after popping FoD. Of course, much of what boosts FoD also boosts autoattacks so this is mostly moot anyway. 

2) Dexterity has diminishing returns if you reach zero recovery but it's still useful even then. If i were to boost this i think i should probably put points in lore to use scrolls so i got something else to do besides the autoattacks. If nothing else, it would add variety to the play style and make the speed boost count for more since scrolls benefit from it. 

3) Perception is useful early on but later it becomes less so once you rack up accuracy through items, buffs, leveling etc. 

4) By contrast, the more deflection you have the better, and that's apparently always the case. Since paladins are naturally tanky, it's better to capitalize on this on some level. 

So the grand conclusion from all this is that keeping everything at base and bumping might and int is the best course of action (lawl). I could still likely take a bit out of constitution and resolve (but not too much) and add a few points here and there either in perception for early on or dexterity but there's nothing major i can do in either case. 

At least i learned a thing of two about the game trying to figure this out. 

 

Edited April 25 by Opus132

[dunehunter]

Darcozzi Paladin's Liberating Exhortation grants +10 accuracy if you take Inspiring Liberation, and it stacks with itself. So you can cast them on yourself twice at the begining of combat to get +20 ACC for around 40 seconds. Which is great boost to FoD(more crit) and Sacred Immolation.

An optimized build focusing on SI would be Darcozzi Paladin, max MIGHT/PER/INT, double cast Liberating Exhortation on self then activate SI, you will have very powerful SI that crit's a lot. Combine it with feats like Beast Hunter, and etc that grant bonus damage, The Merciless Hand that grants +crit damage and its way better than paladin focus on auto attacks.

[Opus132]

You can use Liberating Exhortation on yourself? Isn't ally only? 

[dunehunter]

29 minutes ago, Opus132 said:

You can use Liberating Exhortation on yourself? Isn't ally only? 

It's always like that, Liberating Exhortation can be used on self, the rest exhortation cannot be casted on self.

[Opus132]

That's interesting, but like i said i tried a Darcozzi run before so i'm going Bleak Walker specifically to try something completely different (roleplaying wise). 

Does Remember Rakhan Field work with Sacred Immolation? Because i think getting a damage boost on grazes and hits should somewhat compensate for a few less crits. 

Edited April 26 by Opus132

[Boeroer]

DEX has linear returns, not diminishing. Even when recovery is zero the returns from DEX are linear. But it is debatable if the small changes in animation speed (counted in absolute frames) is worth the hassle to stack DEX into the sky while other attributes suffer.

Remember Rakhan Field only applies to FoD. It is actually a copy of the original FoD attack that has an additional corrosive lash. Most abilities and their upgrades are hard-coded copies with adjustments. Upgrades or talents for abilities usually do no "latch" onto basic abilities or so. Instead when you pick an upgrade/talent the basic ability is removed and the new, improved ability is added to your character.

An exception is Scion of Flame - that does work with FoD and also Sacred Immolation. Spirit of Decay also works with the corrosive lash of Remember Rakhan Field. 

What they do is to improve the lash by 20% (so 25% becomes 30%, 50% becomes 60% and so on).

For a Bleak Walker I guess two Bittercut sabres (cloned with the Helwax Mold) could be the best FoD option. The sabre itself does corrode damage and profits from Spirit of Decay, the lash on the weapon (fire or corrode) profits from Scion of Flame or Spirit of Decay, the FoD lashes profit from Scion of Flame and Remember Rakhan Field profits from Spirit of Decay. It's a nice weapon anyway (bc. sabre with dual damage).

 

Edited April 26 by Boeroer