Help creating a melee Cipher

[SteelMailbox]

Hello, I just finished PoE 1 as a Cipher for the first time and had a blast. For the sake of continuity I'd like to stay a Cipher but I am having trouble deciding what to actually do with it. I tried SC Ascendant a little but the wait to unleash my power is killing me and atleast at the start of the game before buffs like Salvation of Time and the like it feels very underwhelming. 

I was considering Multi-Classing Soulblade instead of either Helwalker Monk or Devoted Fighter (I'd like to either use WotEP or dual Sabres) but I on one hand worry either that with Transcendent both generating wounds (as Edér is going to always be in my party drawing alot of aggro and possibly Pallegina aswell from time to time) and another worry for me is that once I do have aggro on my MC he will die really quickly cause of the Helwalker penalty and especially if I didn't get to buff my MC with Cipher abilities beforehand (Borrowed Instinct for example).

For stat allocation I was thinking:

• Mig 10 (Helwalker should provide all the Might I need)
• Con 14 (To offset the glass in glass cannon of Helwalker a bit + increase Fortitude for Shred spells)
• Dex 18 
• Per 18 (No one likes to miss and as a Soulblade missing Soul Annihilation can be devastating your mental well being) 
• Int 10 (Gonna be focusing mainly on Shred spells for Cipher and Ancestor's Memory helps offset this but I'd also like some duration for stuff like Borrowed Instinct and some of the monk abilities)
• Res 8 (Don't want to dump it cause of will but it's also not strictly necessary and if I feel lacking in will I can take Bull's Will)

Which is why I started considering Psyblade with Devoted (Greatsword) as a way to increase my damage output with melee while also increasing my character's tankiness. However I like my MC to be a relatively fast attacker (PoE 1 Cipher with Time Parasite was some of the greatest fun I had whether I was auto-attacking or casting) and I worry that it'll just feel too slow and clunky.

• Mig 14 
• Con 8 (Don't wanna dump it as a melee class but I also feel like Fighter can buff defenses enough for this to be somewhat irrelevant)
• Dex 18
• Per 18
• Int 10
• Res 10

There was also the consideration of SC Soulblade. I understand that Soulblades are better Multi-Classed but I was wondering if Time Parasite and Death of 1,000 Cuts might be worth giving up on another class in order to have that really high action speed and insane DPS from Shred casting.

• Mig 12 (I do wanna increase it higher but I also think I need those other stats just a bit more. If I feel lackluster with damage I can always buff it in a plethora of ways)
• Con 8 
• Dex 10 (A bit lower than the others because the whole point of SC Cipher for me is Time Parasite which makes me think a buffed out Dex is overkill)
• Per 18 
• Int 18 (As a SC Cipher there's access to a lot more supportive abilities aswell which have INT duration scaling plus somethings like Recall Agony also make use of it)
• Res 12 (Missing Time Parasite is no fun)

Lemme know what are your recommendations and whether these attribute distributions look fine. Would be glad to receive any help!

 

[Boeroer]

Concerning Soulblade/Helwalker:

Helwalker's increased damage received isn't as bad as it sounds. Higher CON is not a bad idea though. 

Monks can generate wounds in different ways in Deadfire, not only through damage received. For example look at the ability "Dance of Death". In addition there are some items which can give you moderate self damage (won't stop Dance of Death) which helps with wound generation, for example Hylea's Talons. 

With Whispers of the Endless Paths you want maxed INT and Turning Wheel on top of that. The cone-shaped AoE is only really useful if you have a lot on INT in order to make it sufficiently big.

Stunning Surge is a great ability with WotEP (with a big cone). Hitting multiple enemies at once with a long-lasting stun is impactful - and also multiple attack rolls increase the chance of a crit, giving you the refund (Stunning Surge for free).

Force of Anguish will push all enemies in the cone away which can be great for battlefield control and interrupts. 

The cone of Torment's Reach doesn't interact with the cone of the great sword at all. Both cones will be there but you won't get cone*cone attack roll explosions. 

10 MIG is okay.

One little trick with WotEP and a Cipher/Monk: Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming don't generate focus (Lightning Strikes do generate additional Focus so that's what I would pick with most weapons) but they proc off of WotEP's special enchantment "Offensive Parry" which is one of my absolute favorite enchantments in the game. So if an enemy misses you in melee you will strike back immediately (like Rogue's Riposte) - only that it's the case in 100% of misses, not only 20 or 30%. But it's a single target attack, no AoE. So your "Parry" (which doesn't use up any time or recovery) has the potential to occur twice or thrice or even more often if it's combined with Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming. This is fun. 

Also Monks are great at disengaging with high bonuses, outright forcing an enemy miss on a disengagement attack -> Offensive Parry to the face. 

If you even find the right armor (Gipon Prudensco or Nomad's Brigandine) and enchant it properly you can safely disengage all the time (those armors grant immunity to disengagement attack, meaning they turn 100% of disengagement attack into misses) and deliver parries in the process, turning ALL the enemies disengagement attacks against them without harming yourself - and potentially setting off cascade of Swift Flurry attacks, too. You could pick up the disengagement abilities of the Monk in the earlier game to profit from this effect - and retrain later once you got one of the aforementioned armors which grant immunity. 

Make sure to bring a backup weapon against single tough foes. WotEP is great against mobs but suboptimal against lone tough nuts. A normal great sword would do for example. Or a Morning Star - such as Saru Sichr (very good in combination with Swift Flurry since it has two attack rolls per strike which both can trigger Swift Flurry). A Morning Star can also be a great backup weapon in combination with the weapon proficiency "Body Blows" because it can help to crack an enemy's fortitude defense. Many abilities and spells attack fortitude (see Force of Anguish for example). 

---

SC Soulblade doesn't have a lot going for it. Death of a 1000 Cuts is very specific since it only procs off of shred spells - it's basically only good against bosses in combination with Ectopsychic Echo Antipathetic Field. 

Time Parasite is nice - but like all Cipher spells it competes for focus with you Soul Annihilation which is just the best damaging tool overall. So you are constantly wondering "should I invest that bulk of focus to speed me up - or do I outright splat an enemy with it?" - if you can cast Time Parasite on a tight group of enemies it's pretty great though.

One fun thing you can do as a SC Soulblade is to use Shared Nightmare with AoE weapon such as Whispers of the Endless Paths, making the cone huge, especially since Soulblade gains temporary +max focus on kill. But it's not gamechanging. 

---

Soul Blade/Devoted with WotEP(and high INT) can use a nice trick later in the game:

Clear Out's cone DOES produce an AoE from the Great Sword with every hit roll in that cone. With a tight enemy formation and sufficient INT (and maybe other AoE size modifiers such as Ring of Overseeing or a pet) this can lead to an absolute explosion of attack rolls that sends all enemies sprawling over the screen, hit by multiple attacks, often killing a bunch of them outright. This is very satisfying. 

---

Since Soul Annihilation profits from damage modifiers such as weapon quality, crit, Sneak Attack and Deathblows etc. a very popular combination is Soul Blade/Trickster since it provides awesome damage through Soul Annihilation+damage mods while it also makes you sturdier (Trickster's self buffs). Also Offensive Parry of WotEP and Riposte do stack... So maybe that's a combo that is interesting to you as well? 

Some players also reported that Soul Blade/Blood Mage was a lot of fun with the use of Citzal's Spirit Lance. Its AoE is bigger than WotEP's and it's circular. In combination with the reach of the pike/lance this makes the placement of the AoE a lot easier: more focus, better distribution of Soul Annihilation. Also Wizards make surprisingly good melee characters due to their fantastic and fast self buffs. Also with Essential Phantom + Spirit Lance you can have two AoE-swinging chars on the battlefield at the same time (Essential and Substancial Phantoms inherit all your items, including currently summoned weapons). They don't use your attributes and abilities - but they are sturdy summons with decent accuracy and the item effects alone can be great in them (see lance).

Edited October 22, 2023 by Boeroer

[SteelMailbox]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Concerning Soulblade/Helwalker:

Helwalker's increased damage received isn't as bad as it sounds. Higher CON is not a bad idea though. 

Monks can generate wounds in different ways in Deadfire, not only through damage received. For example look at the ability "Dance of Death". In addition there are some items which can give you moderate self damage (won't stop Dance of Death) which helps with wound generation, for example Hylea's Talons. 

With Whispers of the Endless Paths you want maxed INT and Turning Wheel on top of that. The cone-shaped AoE is only really useful if you have a lot on INT in order to make it sufficiently big.

Stunning Surge is a great ability with WotEP (with a big cone). Hitting multiple enemies at once with a long-lasting stun is impactful - and also multiple attack rolls increase the chance of a crit, giving you the refund (Stunning Surge for free).

Force of Anguish will push all enemies in the cone away which can be great for battlefield control and interrupts. 

The cone of Torment's Reach doesn't interact with the cone of the great sword at all. Both cones will be there but you won't get cone*cone attack roll explosions. 

10 MIG is okay.

One little trick with WotEP and a Cipher/Monk: Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming don't generate focus (Lightning Strikes do generate additional Focus so that's what I would pick with most weapons) but they proc off of WotEP's special enchantment "Offensive Parry" which is one of my absolute favorite enchantments in the game. So if an enemy misses you in melee you will strike back immediately (like Rogue's Riposte) - only that it's the case in 100% of misses, not only 20 or 30%. But it's a single target attack, no AoE. So your "Parry" (which doesn't use up any time or recovery) has the potential to occur twice or thrice or even more often if it's combined with Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming. This is fun. 

Also Monks are great at disengaging with high bonuses, outright forcing an enemy miss on a disengagement attack -> Offensive Parry to the face. 

If you even find the right armor (Gipon Prudensco or Nomad's Brigandine) and enchant it properly you can safely disengage all the time (those armors grant immunity to disengagement attack, meaning they turn 100% of disengagement attack into misses) and deliver parries in the process, turning ALL the enemies disengagement attacks against them without harming yourself - and potentially setting off cascade of Swift Flurry attacks, too. You could pick up the disengagement abilities of the Monk in the earlier game to profit from this effect - and retrain later once you got one of the aforementioned armors which grant immunity. 

Make sure to bring a backup weapon against single tough foes. WotEP is great against mobs but suboptimal against lone tough nuts. A normal great sword would do for example. Or a Morning Star - such as Saru Sichr (very good in combination with Swift Flurry since it has two attack rolls per strike which both can trigger Swift Flurry). A Morning Star can also be a great backup weapon in combination with the weapon proficiency "Body Blows" because it can help to crack an enemy's fortitude defense. Many abilities and spells attack fortitude (see Force of Anguish for example). 

---

SC Soulblade doesn't have a lot going for it. Death of a 1000 Cuts is very specific since it only procs off of shred spells - it's basically only good against bosses in combination with Ectopsychic Echo. 

Time Parasite is nice - but like all Cipher spells it competes for focus with you Soul Annihilation which is just the best damaging tool overall. So you are constantly wondering "should I invest that bulk of focus to speed me up - or do I outright splat an enemy with it?" - if you can cast Time Parasite on a tight group of enemies it's pretty great though.

One fun thing you can do as a SC Soulblade is to use Shared Nightmare with AoE weapon such as Whispers of the Endless Paths, making the cone huge, especially since Soulblade gains temporary +max focus on kill. But it's not gamechanging. 

---

Soul Blade/Devoted with WotEP(and high INT) can use a nice trick later in the game:

Clear Out's cone DOES produce an AoE from the Great Sword with every hit roll in that cone. With a tight enemy formation and sufficient INT (and maybe other AoE size modifiers such as Ring of Overseeing or a pet) this can lead to an absolute explosion of attack rolls that sends all enemies sprawling over the screen, hit by multiple attacks, often killing a bunch of them outright. This is very satisfying. 

---

Since Soul Annihilation profits from damage modifiers such as weapon quality, crit, Sneak Attack and Deathblows etc. a very popular combination is Soul Blade/Trickster since it provides awesome damage through Soul Annihilation+damage mods while it also makes you sturdier (Trickster's self buffs). Also Offensive Parry of WotEP and Riposte do stack... So maybe that's a combo that is interesting to you as well? 

Some players also reported that Soul Blade/Blood Mage was a lot of fun with the use of Citzal's Spirit Lance. Its AoE is bigger than WotEP's and it's circular. In combination with the reach of the pike/lance this makes the placement of the AoE a lot easier: more focus, better distribution of Soul Annihilation. Also Wizards make surprisingly good melee characters due to their fantastic and fast self buffs. Also with Essential Phantom + Spirit Lance you can have two AoE-swinging chars on the battlefield at the same time (Essential and Substancial Phantoms inherit all your items, including currently summoned weapons). They don't use your attributes and abilities - but they are sturdy summons with decent accuracy and the item effects alone can be great in them (see lance).

Took me a bit to unpack all of this info so first off I'd like to thank you for taking the time to write all of that.

Secondly I saw that Clear Out + WotEP combo and it looked insane but is that all a Fighter really has to offer to a WotEP Soulblade? Cause I think one thing a Cipher definitely isn't lacking in it's CC.

The SC Soulblade, ye I can see what you mean. It was mainly inspired by my love of Time Parasite from PoE1 (Used to just hit 1 auto-attack, proc Time Parasite, and spam auto-attacks to refill focus for Amplified Wave or accuracy buffs for bosses) but a change of pace is probably a good idea.

The Transcendent interaction with WotEP sounds interesting. But it sounds somewhat not my style. I like a more straight approach in combat Y'know, where you simply decide who your characters should target and they'll either auto-attack or cast when necessary. The Disengagement sounds like a bit of a janky playstyle micro-managey playstyle where you're always concerned with making sure you are engaged to disengaged and rinse and repeat. If I instead take Blade Form and Lightning Strikes I should be fine right? Or would you say a WotEP Monk relies on that interaction?

[abot]

Some notes about death of 1000 cuts, I used it a lot while testing my Surrogate Challenge mod, looking for a way to damage Dorudugan fast enough without 0 recovery cheats.
DOTC does not work with Ectopsychic Echo (that is a echo only ability), but it works e.g. with cheap & fast cast mind blades, it is great if you have at least 2 enemies to ping-pong between but even against a single boss you can cast mind blades fast enough to prolong death of 1000 cuts every few seconds, and differently from disintegration death of 1000 cuts can last a lot this way even with something with high res like Dorudugan (and you can use Magran belt to summon a hostile blight and ping pong some mind blades).
With less tough nuts DOTC is ideal to use before disintegration

Edited October 21, 2023 by abot

[Kaylon]

The class that has the highest synergy with the soulblade is the rogue. The soulblade has two interesting mechanics:

• to spread the Soul Annihilation damage in an AoE with WotEP/Citzal's SL
• the ability to spam Soul Annihilation using Sun and Moon and Tuotilo's Palm/The Best Defense - the second hit of the flail will replenish your focus allowing to use SA continuously, while the bashing shields allow you to benefit also from the dual wield bonuses on top of the shield ones (basically you will spam SA as fast as a dual wielder)

Adding rogue damage bonuses on top of these two already powerful tools becomes devastating. Another weapon worth mentioning is Voidwheel which allows easy one shots with backstab and has a great proc (up to 25% chance to trigger) that can also refill your focus bar instantly.

The trickster is a nice choice for rogue because it has a few spells that can increase your survivability. However, if you have a herald in your party using Ancient Memory, Old Siec and Exalted Endurance you will rarely need any healing.

That's for the melee cipher... For the ranged/caster version, ascendant/arcane archer with Frostseeker allows to refill your focus bar in 1/2 shots and has great ranged AoE dps and casting power. Ascendant/helwalker with Essence Interrupter is also a good option for a more caster oriented cipher.

 

[Boeroer]

23 hours ago, SteelMailbox said:

Secondly I saw that Clear Out + WotEP combo and it looked insane but is that all a Fighter really has to offer to a WotEP Soulblade? Cause I think one thing a Cipher definitely isn't lacking in it's CC.

I'm not a huge fan of the Fighter class in the first place, so I am inclined to say "yepp, that's all a Fighter has to offer", but that would be unfair. Fighters possess some nice abilities that work well with multiclassing in general. Also WotEP + Knockdown is a nice combo to have in your backhand because it has a neat ACC bonus build in an provides good CC for times your focus is empty.

Yes, a Cipher doesn't lack CC at all (if you pick your abilities accordingly), but it's driven by focus. And sometimes you don't have that. The WotEP+Clear Out combo deals a lot of damage and thus generates a ton of focus which you can then use for whatever Cipher power that seems useful at the time.

Still... Soulblade/Devoted wouldn't be my favorite pick because Fighters are pretty boring to me personally. But that doesn't mean they are boring for everyone else. It's a very subjective take. 

23 hours ago, SteelMailbox said:

 If I instead take Blade Form and Lightning Strikes I should be fine right? Or would you say a WotEP Monk relies on that interaction?

Yes, that would be fine as well. The whole Parry thing is just a neat little trick that is fun to me but doesn't completely alter the validity of a Transcendent. Monk/Cipher is a good combo in any way, generating resources from both damage dealt and damage received - which is a nice combo in general. Also the added Helwalker MIG with the add INT from Duality of Mortal Presence/Turning Wheel is great for most spallcasting and especially great for stuff like Disintegrate.

11 hours ago, abot said:

DOTC does not work with Ectopsychic Echo (that is a echo only ability), 

True, I mixed it up with Antipathetic Field which works similarly to Ectopsychic Echo (a beam of 10 secs with 1 sec procs, but  instead of anchoring it to an ally you anchor it to an enemy). It's not an Echo ability but surprisingly enough it is of Shred - and imo it is the best option for Death of 1000 Cuts since it procs so rapidly (1/sec) and is so cheap to cast with a great range. But you need a second enemy (if you are confused you can anchor it to anybody, hello Berserker ;)). Sorry for the confusion. 

I don't think it's as bad as some other players think it is - I just don't think it's useful enough to be a reason to go single class Cipher and especially a melee SC Soulblade. 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Boeroer

[Constentin Lévine]

For the SC soulblade, there is a lot of weapons that can help a lot to refill your focus, with Shared Nighmare. Amra, Keeper of the Flame, Sungrazer, Karaboru, Eager Blade, Acolyte's Frostbite, Grave Calling etc, with some AoE damaging effects that work well with the melee / focus side. 

Frostfall is a very good weapon for melee (or ranged, but attacking ith weapons) cipher , the enchantment Dispersed Suffering work on any weapon kill (even from another weapon equipped in the other hand) and because some Cipher buffs depend to the linked enemy debuff ( Borrowed Instincts, Time Parasite, Body Attunement ect), this weapon can increase your melee potential. 

To get some focus easily you can also cast Reaping Knives on another caster , giving you back 5 focus per spell launched (I mean not depending of the number of enemies but if the spell launch some "copy" of it per interval, you can eventually have a "Psion passive")

Screaming Souls dont work on the base game but this spell is corrected by some mods. As shred spell, with skellies and Death of 1000 Cuts, that can be a little crazy too.

For MultiClass purpose, the +20 all defenses from Borrowed Instincts dont stack with same type bonuses (+% all defenses) but with specified ones (+% deflection, +% reflex etc). Trickster with these wizard spells work fine.

Fighter, with this +20all defenses ability, dont, but you are planning to down enemies with weapons and fighter can be very potent with Mob Stance + Clear Out. They are naturally sturdy on top. Barbarians have also some nice stuffs for melee, it is just too bad the Carnage attack dont fill back focus.. (The Amra 's Carnage work in other hand).

 

[mjo2138]

I would add also that generating focus for a Cipher, be it SC or MC , is not really an issue. Thunderous Report ability, part of a blunderbuss you get mid game, is quite good at this too if you are ranged. If you choose SC Cipher, do so because you really want to experiment with what the class offers with full creative freedom, Power levels unlocked sooner (Secret Horrors is a great game changer to have early on), try the PL 8/9 spells, and have plenty of ability points to spend on testing of the passives. I played a Beguiler MC with rogue, and I loved it. If I were to run SC Cipher, I would choose Beguiler. The subclass generates focus very quickly.  On the other hand, I usually end up using the PL 1-7 spells so much, it does make me wonder if SC Cipher is worth it. I am not a Powergamer, so I do take my time early and mid game. However, if you prefer to level quickly, the whole SC/MC thing matters less (sailing your ship around Deadfire can allow you level up rather quickly thanks to the experience bonuses of discovery!) 

 

Coming from POE 1, you might already have noticed that Charm spells are not as OP in Deadfire as they were in POE 1. Same goes for Mental Binding (paralyze spell). Still, these are great CC spells . Personally, I prefer Terrify as a CC, but that is just me. Charm, while good, is really just prolonging what will be the inevitable death of the enemies you face.  A lot of tough mobs are immune to Intellect afflictions, but sometimes not Resolve. Oozes are a prime example! I prefer to buff my party, debuff enemies, and go then cast my big spells -- but to each their own!