Help needed with POTD upscaled party composition

[Vasvary5050]

Hi folks. I've decided to restart my POTD upscaled run again. This time I plan to just focus on having a strong party rather than focusing on role-play and could do with some input. Here are my thoughts so far:

Hierophant (Bloodmage/Soul Blade) - Dps + support + off-tank [Main Character]

Hunter or Wildrhymer with bear pet - 2 tanks for the price of one

Either mindstalker (assassin/ascendant) or shadowdancer (assassin/helwalker) - ranged dps + support

Priest - primarily for buffs and debuffs, but also some dps

Druid (Tekahu) - primarily for heals, but also some dps

I really want a chanter in the mix somewhere, which is why I put Wildrhymer (ranger/chanter), but maybe it is better to have priest/chanter or druid/chanter. I'm not sure.

Any thoughts? POTD upscaled viable? I've played POTD upscaled a couple of times, but some of it was a slow/difficult slog, and I stalled at SSS. This time I'm hoping to go with a stronger party that has a smoother and faster run, and so I would really appreciate your suggestions (feel free to be a bit brutal! I would rather know if I'm making some bad calls before I get into the run!).

[limaxophobiacq]

I havent played Hierophant but the consensus seems to be that its very strong. A single class priest & druid are never wrong, and the call of rymrgand + maelstrom combo late game is excellent.

For the third one I would say assassin/ascendant (of course you want kitchen stove with Thunderous Report with assassinate bonus on this one) over assassin/helwalker. The assassin wants to use high damage abilities in the opening of combat from stealth for the assassinate bonus while the helwalker part wants to get wound then use abilities with +10 int & might which is a bit of a conflict, also for weapon attacks if you are getting sneak attack and deathblows (+110% damage) already, going up to +140% from helwalker might bonus being worth taking +65% damage is questionable. Transcendant (monk/ascendant) with the hand mortars is also and option and very solid for spamming stunning surge with the +25 accuracy from borrowed instinct + tactical meld, I would not go helwalker for this combo since it's not that great for weapon damage or disintegrate (bugged might scaling on the later) and you are going to be pretty close to the front line.

Since you want a second tank and a chanter have you considered War Caller (Blackjacket/Skald)? Due to the weapons skald can benefit from (Sashas scimitar for free empower and phrases at the start of combat, Sun-and-Moon for generating crits and debuffing reflex, Griffins Blade for +10% damage when casting Thrice Was She Wronged) blackjacket instant weapon switch can be quite effective and i think will work better in the role than hunter or wildrhymer. Fighter also gives tactical barrage + tankyness and action speed if you go with the Contenders armor + max athletics &  armored grace, or means you are not unbearably slow with deltros cage for +2 electricity power level. Of course a herald troubadour is also never going to be wrong for a chanter and tank. Bear pet on a stalker while not fragile is not really a tank and a Wildrhymer with only the stalker +5 deflection +1 AR to protect him isn't really either when compared to the paladin or fighter multiclasses.

Edit: For Tekehu specifically you definitely want the priest casting Devotions on the party (good for everyone) and one of the ascendants targeting him with tactical meld to make up for his awful perception and might when casting offensive druid spells. I don't know why exactly he is the only non-custom character you decided on (his unique spells are good but his attributes are pretty terrible). He's perfectly adequete so I'm not going to tell you to drop him if you want him for RP purpose but a custom lifegiver would be both a better healer/support and damage dealer.

Edited May 12, 2023 by limaxophobiacq

[thelee]

13 hours ago, limaxophobiacq said:

but a custom lifegiver would be both a better healer/support and damage dealer.

his stats are lame and his spiritshift also lame, but he gets very excellent bonus spells (watery double alone is pretty slick) and party-friendly water/ice spells. he's not going to heal as well as a lifegiver, but i think overall he has pretty strong subclasses (both druid and chanter)

[limaxophobiacq]

2 hours ago, thelee said:

his stats are lame and his spiritshift also lame, but he gets very excellent bonus spells (watery double alone is pretty slick) and party-friendly water/ice spells. he's not going to heal as well as a lifegiver, but i think overall he has pretty strong subclasses (both druid and chanter)

You're not wrong the spells are very good but the thing is so are a lot of normal druid spells, foe only Freezing Pillar is a worthy level 9 spell but you have to choose between casting it and Great Maelstrom. You are also missing out on Form of Demelgam and Plague of Insects which are a bit situational but really strong in midgame fights like kith bounties and boardings. It's a pretty strong subclass, but so is lifegiver and a custom lifegiver gets to have good stats and a good subclass.

Again as I said Tekehu as druid is perfectly adequete; he has his most important stat as his highest and a special subclass as good as any of the standard ones which is better than what some other companions get. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by limaxophobiacq

[elbe]

2 hours ago, thelee said:

his stats are lame and his spiritshift also lame, but he gets very excellent bonus spells (watery double alone is pretty slick) and party-friendly water/ice spells. he's not going to heal as well as a lifegiver, but i think overall he has pretty strong subclasses (both druid and chanter)

What is the appeal of Watery Double?  My understanding is unless you have the game modded it's not controllable and bugged to not use any of its abilities, so all I end up with is a clone of Tekehu with fairly average combat stats and equipment.  Is there a special way you are using the clone?

[thelee]

4 hours ago, elbe said:

so all I end up with is a clone of Tekehu with fairly average combat stats and equipment.

duplicating stats + equipment can be pretty metagame-able.

it's not going to be quite the level of wizard shenanigans (who can just also summon powerful summoned weapons and double-up on them innately, along with a lot of other unique item shenanigans [edit: technically a generic druid has firebrand, but tekehu doesn't get firebrand.]), but it's still very metagameable. the fact that tekehu's clone doesn't use any abilities is basically irrelevant - i actually prefer the lower level wizard phantom spell because the abilities for the higher level phantom is a waste of time compared to doubling up on potentially powerful weapon attacks (frankly, i forgot that the watery double is even supposed to have abilities to use, that's how little that registers for me)

 

edit: if all you do is equip a wand and wear some generic cloth and cast phantom/watery double, then yeah it's going to be pretty underwhelming. use a scroll/cast a minor blight and then phantom/watery double and you've already tapped into something pretty decent without much effort.

edit 2: even just something as simple as casting watery double while you're spiritshifted while significantly boost the effectiveness of watery double, esp if you have wildstrike talents.

Edited May 12, 2023 by thelee

[Shai Hulud]

On 5/11/2023 at 4:32 PM, Vasvary5050 said:

Hi folks. I've decided to restart my POTD upscaled run again. This time I plan to just focus on having a strong party rather than focusing on role-play and could do with some input. Here are my thoughts so far:

Hierophant (Bloodmage/Soul Blade) - Dps + support + off-tank [Main Character]

Hunter or Wildrhymer with bear pet - 2 tanks for the price of one

Either mindstalker (assassin/ascendant) or shadowdancer (assassin/helwalker) - ranged dps + support

Priest - primarily for buffs and debuffs, but also some dps

Druid (Tekahu) - primarily for heals, but also some dps

I really want a chanter in the mix somewhere, which is why I put Wildrhymer (ranger/chanter), but maybe it is better to have priest/chanter or druid/chanter. I'm not sure.

Any thoughts? POTD upscaled viable? I've played POTD upscaled a couple of times, but some of it was a slow/difficult slog, and I stalled at SSS. This time I'm hoping to go with a stronger party that has a smoother and faster run, and so I would really appreciate your suggestions (feel free to be a bit brutal! I would rather know if I'm making some bad calls before I get into the run!).

Just the blood mage / soul blade by himself is potd upscaled viable, so any party is going to be viable also.

That said, thoughts...

You could run tekehu as a sc chanter. Not that he is bad as watershaper. As chanter he can be extremely broken with late game gear (weyc + coil + blightheart + Sasha singing scimitar) and carry your whole party. Very very strong with mid game gear (blightheart and Sasha singing scimitar) able to spam invocations every 3 seconds.

He can't summon things but he is set up for damage invocations so not that big a downside. Your wildrhymer could summon things. Just don't use a ghost heart because that counts towards summon limit. Bellower / priest is also super good but competes for items a tekehu chanter would want (coil and weyc).

I dont know much about mindstalkers. Helwalker / assassin would be quite strong but fragile and narrow in role. You may consider something more versatile like a plain forbidden fist or ff multi like votary alternatively. Something that can do decent damage but also take a hit.

I dont love sc priests, mainly because they multiclass so well. The tier 8/9 spells aren't worth everything you'd get from seven tiers of helwalker for example, though it would be fine single classed.

Game knowledge is ultimately more important than getting the perfect setup, and just about any party that isn't intentionally butchered can probably make it through (might be more/less of a grind in spots is all).

The early game is the grindiest, lot of builds dont become strong until l10 to l16. Thats why I'd suggest you have one character who comes online immediately like a FF or FF / SG paladin.

[Vasvary5050]

So I started POTD upscale run. In the end I went with:

1. War Caller [Unbroken Troubadour] - tanking
2. Battlemage (Aloth) - tanking
3. Mindstalker [Assassin/Ascendant] - damage
4. Liberator [Lifegiver/Kind Wayfarer] - healer
5. Priest (Xoti) - buffs

Party now at level 5. No party wipes yet, and yet the party doesn't feel in a great place (though hard to evaluate at low levels when abilities haven't come online yet so maybe I just need to wait and see how things develop). 

My biggest problem at the moment is simply that fights are taking ages. This party doesn't seem to have great damage output. Mindstalker is doing decent damage, but everyone else's damage is meh. I think I've got too many tanks and supports, and not enough damage dealers. Just not sure how to fix it. 

I might start again. Any suggestions. How can I squeeze in a second good damage dealer whilst still having 2 tanks, non-priest heals, and priest buffs? Should I abandon the idea of 2 tanks? Or maybe make one of the tanks a tanky-priest. [I have no idea how people do POTD upscaled solo when I'm only just managing with a full party]

[Shai Hulud]

11 hours ago, Vasvary5050 said:

So I started POTD upscale run. In the end I went with:

1. War Caller [Unbroken Troubadour] - tanking
2. Battlemage (Aloth) - tanking
3. Mindstalker [Assassin/Ascendant] - damage
4. Liberator [Lifegiver/Kind Wayfarer] - healer
5. Priest (Xoti) - buffs

Party now at level 5. No party wipes yet, and yet the party doesn't feel in a great place (though hard to evaluate at low levels when abilities haven't come online yet so maybe I just need to wait and see how things develop). 

Hmm. You don't need a dedicated healer/buffer type character, or even dedicated tanks. You need tanks, but if they can do other things fights will resolve much faster. For example, a forbidden fist / steel garrote can tank while doing tremendous damage and self-healing. I guess your war caller can summon/buff things, but overall you have too much support and not enough damage. I'm not really convinced a mindstalker does max damage either, given it is expensive to become invisible and it takes a long time to get deathblows. A streetfighter / berserker on the other hand can do tremendous damage immediately from the huge damage and recovery bonuses from heating up / etc. Prefer streetfighter / FF because doesn't die as easily but keeping them bloodied can be a little hard.

11 hours ago, Vasvary5050 said:

My biggest problem at the moment is simply that fights are taking ages. This party doesn't seem to have great damage output. Mindstalker is doing decent damage, but everyone else's damage is meh. I think I've got too many tanks and supports, and not enough damage dealers. Just not sure how to fix it. 

Yep. 

Basically you have two characters that can do damage, and the hierophant isn't really online at L5. 

I mean I wouldn't evaluate parties based on how they perform at L5, provided you're willing to grind through those combats or just stealth past them. I still think having a character or two that comes on fast would help a lot, like FF or FF/SG. And a priest/helwalker vs priest, or if Xoti then a contemplative because monks do good damage. 

11 hours ago, Vasvary5050 said:

I might start again. Any suggestions. How can I squeeze in a second good damage dealer whilst still having 2 tanks, non-priest heals, and priest buffs? Should I abandon the idea of 2 tanks? Or maybe make one of the tanks a tanky-priest. [I have no idea how people do POTD upscaled solo when I'm only just managing with a full party]

Depends whether you want to use companions or custom make them. I'll assume custom. This isn't completely optimal as I'm trying to make diverse characters but should work well. The key is covering lots of roles with as few chars as possible. For example tanks are usually necessary but a pure tank just stands there and absorbs damage, so we'd much rather have a tank that can also do damage. So here are my custom suggestions.

1) FF / SG votary - can tank, do good damage, can support, comes online immediately, does not need babysitting or healing usually
2) Troubadour / Sharpshooter - Uses pet (bear) and summons to tank while providing support and dealing good bow damage (troubadour/stalker for melee)
3) Berserker / Streetfighter or Berserker / Devoted - first does more damage but requires healing. Wants to stay flanked and bloodied ideally, you can tell whether he's bloodied by whether blooded is active. Use second for less micro, or if happy with the mindstalker just use that, lots of high-damage builds. 
4) SC Lifegiver (or just animist) is actually preferable here IMO because the Tier 8/9 druid spells are really, really good. Avenging Storm and Great Maelstrom for damage, Pollen Patch for incredible healing. You don't gain that much from a paladin multiclass if you already have one which I'd suggest elsewhere. And higher power level = more healing, also levels up faster to provide better healing to those who need it. Also empowered avenging storm has all kinds of benefits from weyc items + least unstable coil that can supercharge your whole party.
5) Helwalker / priest - gets +10 MIG, +10 CON/INT (go INT) at L10, which is super helpful, makes priest more versatile, spells do more damage, heal more, and with turning wheel, buffs and debuffs last longer.

So in this party 1 would be main tank, helped by 2 with summons and pet, 3 would be a melee striker, 4 would be back row healing and eventually damage, 2 himself can be either back row ranged or front row melee, and 5 is also versatile, normally back row support and spell damage but can also be a striker as needed

I'm very confident about everything but 3, there are many DPS builds so I don't know what is the best, and a berserker/streetfighter does require some care to really reap the benefits, but I think in this suggested party it would work. Or go with a different high damage character, with the other 4 picks doing moderate to high damage themselves, it isn't as critical to have a maximal DPS char anyway. 

If you want Xoti, sub number 5 for her as contemplative. And if you want Aloth, sub 3.

The way we solo upscaled POTD is having an OP character. FF/SG is capable of soling without cheese tactics.

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Boeroer]

If you need a great damage dealer in the early game not much beats Berserker/Streetfighter with Hunting Bow, preferably Essence Interrupter imo. Right out of the gates it gets Frenzy with higher action speed, Streetfighter passive with -50% recovery and 50% recovery from the bow modal. The self dmg of Frenzy leads to blooded which triggers the Streetfighter's Heating up. If you go with 3 CON this happens very quickly, but later in the game you would need to counter the self dmg more - bc. it scales more steeply than your health.

First Frenzy + bow modal will speed you up, then Frenzy + Heating Up + modal will give you insane shooting speed and when Frenzy wears out you'll still have 2x -50% recovery. Of course the +2 PEN helps, too. 

Hunting bows get +5 acc naturally, so the malus of the modal is not that bad. And if you pick human as your race you will always unlock Fighting Spirit which counters the malus, too. Then buying the exceptional Essence Interrupter that early on the game does its part for your acc, too.

This build can plow through Gorecci Str and the Digsite with ease - if you have somebody to keep enemies away from it. Luckily Hunting Bows have a great range. 

Blooded will already add 25% dmg to the high Sneak Attack of the bloodied Streetfighter. Later add Bloodlust even more speed), Bloody Slaughter and Blood Thirst and go the Blood Storm route of Frenzy - because the raw dmg is nice and bc. one kills so quickly the duration will be extended quite a bit. But then you have to counter with healing over time at some point. A pet with "heal on kill" can help. Devil of Caroc Breastplate + Abraham is a solid choice, also gets rid of the confusion. Later Savage Defiance. You can also go the Spirit Frenzy route and unlock Sneak Attack automatically with the stagger. The you can unlock deathblows right away with on Crippling Strike for example. Then also Brute Force can come into play in combination with Withering Strike (or some other source of sicken or weaken from the party) so that you can target a lower fortitude instead. I'm undecided on which is better. Spirit Frenzy is probably easier to control because the frenzy duration is finite. 

Ofc. Deathblows...

I really liked Crippling Strike as my no.1 "affliction" attack. Upgraded to Arterial Strike when I went the Spirit Frenzy route and as Debilitating Strike if I chose Blood Storm (fast Deathblow unlock). It is cheap, scales its base dmg lovely via Power Level - esp. in combination with all the additive dmg bonuses - and has +2 bonus pen right away which stacks with the Berserker's +2 PEN. Once a target is afflicted you can just auto-attack (aka let the gatlin-gun do its work). 

As finisher I would use Barbaric Smash instead of Finishing Blow because often if will get refunded and it does comparable dmg (at least on crit).

With Deep Wounds you might want to switch weapons to A's Legacy - because shock dmg wouldn't trigger Deep Wounds. But the summons from the EE's crits and then kills are still very nice to have, so maybe that's a matter of preference or party composition and also which enemy you are facing.

It is not a build that improves like crazy after several levels but instead starts as very impactful and just keeps being good on a more flat "power curve".

With Essence Interrupter this guy also rips Steelclads apart even if you are underleveled - an enemy who can otherwise be a problem if taken on too early.

You can do the same with blunderbuss and combine the flanked with the bloodied for high crit dmg - but the shooting will be significantly slower and the acc not much better. Also the low range is really hurting this setup because you will get attacked a lot more. 

Purely single target damage though ( no problem with the initial confusion) - so I prefer him to take on dangerous but more squishy backliners like casters. Hes very good at killing them very quickly.  

As you can see the Berserker is mostly there to unlock bloodied/Heating up very quickly without the need to get flanked or get actually attacked by enemies - and the +2 PEN. 

This build profits a lot from party summons and/or mind control because it draws enemies attention (especially ranged enemies) away from him. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Boeroer

[Shai Hulud]

Okay if @Boeroer agrees with me about berserker/streetfighter I am pretty confident that party will murder things. Why don't you want to get flanked though? The damage bonus from flanked + bloodied is nuts. Might have to stick him in some heavy armor but I think it could be worth it.

Also I like streetfighter /  FF, can do like +500% damage in the right circumstances. I think it's +65% sneak attack (more with potion of ascension), +100% bloodied/flanked, deathblows is +50%, transcendent suffering high level is like 95%, forbidden curse with this build I intentionally stack to get bloodied so sometimes it's +200%. Have seen some super high DPS but the vanilla AI is so bad with forbidden curse it is hard to get down how to use without dying. I can do it with an AI mod that detects if you have forbidden curse. Most single-target damaging character I've put together, can wear the heaviest armor (plus iron wheel) and still attack pretty fast. Still has some wrinkles with using the curse to get bloodied though. 

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

Why don't you want to get flanked though? The damage bonus from flanked + bloodied is nuts.

It's only crit dmg bonus. I find it hard to justify to get flanked with a low health ranged char and deal with melee attacks that potentially one-shoot me for more crit damage. If you can get flanked reliably but without taking dmg otherwise though (like by a party member's spell or whatever) it would be def. an option.

Switching from an initial blunderbuss shot to bow would also work, but it lowers accuracy further and in a party that's way too much micro for my taste. And I tend to play without AI on - although this build is very nice for AI scripting.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Boeroer

[Shai Hulud]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

It's only crit dmg bonus. I find it hard to justify to get flanked with a low health ranged char and deal with melee attacks that potentially one-shoot me for more crit damage. If you can get flanked reliably but without taking dmg otherwise though (like by a party member's spell or whatever) it would be def. an option.

Switching from an initial blunderbuss shot to bow would also work, but it lowers accuracy further and in a party that's way too much micro for my taste. And I tend to play without AI on - although this build is very nice for AI scripting.

Ah, kinda skimmed your post, I was envisioning a melee character, but I can see how berserker/streetfighter would work ranged. +100% crit bonus is a lot of damage though, and berserker/streetfighter won't have the best accuracy but gets what, 30% hit to crit from frenzy + 10% dirty fighting? Another 20% if one-handed? I mean I know it doesn't add like that, but throw in ring of prosperity's fortune +15% and what is it, 1 -.7*.9*.8*.85 = 57% hit to crit? I'd also stack accuracy gear so always at least hit and often crit outright, so this guy could do a lot of damage, attacks pretty fast also, you give him a weapon like aldris blade of captain crow and/or slayer's claw and will heal decently enough. 

It's funny, I remember arguing against berserkers, usually don't like them versus normal barbarians but their upsides/downsides are really nice put together with a streetfighter, since their meh accuracy is complemented well by the hit-to-crit and the major downside of self-damage is turned into an upside because of streetfighter's heating up.

My streetfighter/FF is pretty tough. Can solo most encounters, possibly all but I haven't tested everything. Berserker has roughly the same armor as iron wheel (no CON bonus, but more base CON), given hardy +2 and thick-skinned. Big difference in health regen though, FF regains health from attacks whereas berserker bleeds health (though savage defiance helps). Needs healing support but otherwise shouldn't be one-shotted unless he's built that way. Barbarian/rogue has base HP of 44 +14/level, which is higher than anything but a pure barbarian, so it really doesn't have to be squishy, particularly if you take tough and eat hylea's bounty. I'd probably prioritize stats as RES > PER > CON > MIG > INT > DEX. Would be different if built ranged, but the halving of recovery time is huge and frenzy contributes so much action speed if you keep that up you can completely dump dex.

It is possible to script weapon switches but it's pretty janky because the AI doesn't recognize individual weapons but weapon configurations, so if you want to script them they need to be unique, like if you had three slots where one is a ranged weapon, one is a ranged weapon and a shield, and one is a melee weapon, you could tell the AI to switch to the second set (say blunderbuss + shield) and fire every X seconds, or alternatively start with it and switch to one of the other sets. More than the AI jankiness, the weapon switch delay is a bummer... Unfortunate quick-switch isn't a universal talent anymore.

Honestly I don't know how you can stand playing without AI. Especially a whole party. Yikes. I was kind of forced to learn scripting doing an ultimate run since lack of pause makes micromanagement seriously difficult, but the interface is really intuitive and simple so it was easy to pick up compared to other games I've played, and it is way way easier to figure out builds if they're properly scripted given the default ones are awful. 

---

edit - another thing I realized when trying to use powder burns for flanked was that rogues riposte procs on guns, reloaded or not. This is particularly interesting for a streetfighter/FF, because for the FF attack your weapon doesn't really matter, so you can have two blunderbuss and do powder burns all the time

Edited May 14, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Kaylon]

 

22 hours ago, Vasvary5050 said:

So I started POTD upscale run. In the end I went with:

1. War Caller [Unbroken Troubadour] - tanking
2. Battlemage (Aloth) - tanking
3. Mindstalker [Assassin/Ascendant] - damage
4. Liberator [Lifegiver/Kind Wayfarer] - healer
5. Priest (Xoti) - buffs

Party now at level 5. No party wipes yet, and yet the party doesn't feel in a great place (though hard to evaluate at low levels when abilities haven't come online yet so maybe I just need to wait and see how things develop). 

My biggest problem at the moment is simply that fights are taking ages. This party doesn't seem to have great damage output. Mindstalker is doing decent damage, but everyone else's damage is meh. I think I've got too many tanks and supports, and not enough damage dealers. Just not sure how to fix it. 

I might start again. Any suggestions. How can I squeeze in a second good damage dealer whilst still having 2 tanks, non-priest heals, and priest buffs? Should I abandon the idea of 2 tanks? Or maybe make one of the tanks a tanky-priest. [I have no idea how people do POTD upscaled solo when I'm only just managing with a full party]

You have too many support/tanks and very few dps. Usually in front you should have a tank and an offensive tank and In the back support, CC and dps. If characters can have multiple roles at the same time it's of course better. Here are a few strong parties ideas:

• paladin/troubadour, devoted/berserker, forbidden fist, ascendant/arcane archer, blood mage/assassin
• steel garrote/blood mage, devoted/berserker, soul blade/trickster, ghost heart/helwalker, troubadour/priest
• forbidden fist/steel garrote, skald/berserker, assassin/tactician, blood mage/troubadour, ascendant/arcane archer

[Vasvary5050]

23 hours ago, Kaylon said:

• paladin/troubadour, devoted/berserker, forbidden fist, ascendant/arcane archer, blood mage/assassin
• steel garrote/blood mage, devoted/berserker, soul blade/trickster, ghost heart/helwalker, troubadour/priest
• forbidden fist/steel garrote, skald/berserker, assassin/tactician, blood mage/troubadour, ascendant/arcane archer

Thanks to @thelee@limaxophobiacq@Boeroer @Kaylon @Shai Hulud for all the in-depth analysis and suggestions. I really appreciate it.

Rather than starting again, I'm slowly swapping out my companions/hirelings. I've kept my War Caller for now as my only tank (who can also chant-summon meat shields). I've removed my second tank completely, replacing with a Devoted (hunting bow)/Ghostheart using the Essence Interrupter that @Boeroermentioned above. I probably should have combined ranger with rogue or berserker or helwalker, but I went for Devoted in the end to get the +5 penetration from devoted and penetrating strikes. In any case, this change by itself has already made a huge difference, making the fights go quicker and the bow often morphing dead enemies into 2-skull allies to help me. I hadn't realised this bow summoned in such powerful allies, and with POTD upscale also upscaling my summons, it feels like a game changer. I've also now given my Mindstalker Tekanhu's rod (Watershaper's Focus), which I'm using to apply the rogue attacks. It's smashing and blinding packs of enemies, with the rod's AoE blast modal, and the rod's leaping arc, which is rather nice.

I'm not sure what to do with my final 2 characters. Looking at @Kaylon's 3 party suggestions, I can see that I've gone way over the top with support/healers  and I need to fix this. Looking at Kaylon's 3 party suggestions in turn, it looks like party #1 has the paladin/troubadour as healer, party #2 has the troubadour/priest, and party #3 doesn't really have a healer at all (though I presume the SG, troubadour or ascendant are meant to do a bit of healing?). Notably, no druid in any of the 3 setups, and a priest in only one of them. My problem is, while I am surviving fights on POTD upscaled - so far no one has died in any fights - in some fights I'm taking a lot of damage, surviving by the skin of my teeth, and it feels like the only thing keeping party members from dropping is the Druid/Paladin who is pumping out healing with the Druid's HoTs and the Paladin's Flames of Devotion (dual-wielding range). I haven't yet figured out how to keep my party alive at this difficulty without the crutch of a lot of healing. I think I could probably survive without the Druid's Hots, or without the Flames of Devotion, but not without at least one or the other. Maybe I could replace the Druid/Paladin with a Helwalker/Paladin and that would be more of a healer/damage-dealer hybrid. 

On the other hand, my priest feels like a third-wheel most of the fight, useful for Dire Blessing, Devotions of the Faithful, Shining Beacon, but not much else at the moment. I do really like Devotions of the Faithful and Shining Beacon, but I could probably dump the priest and put in a more dedicated damage dealer in their place, perhaps a ranged Berserker/Streetfighter like @Boeroersuggested, or a Devoted/Berserker, or a forbidden Fist (though if I go for another melee, I probably should ramp back on the summons).

My party is only level 8/7 (8 for MC and Xoti, 7 for the hired characters) at the moment, so this may all smooth out at higher levels when more character abilities come online, but with POTD upscaling, there seems to be plenty of front-loaded difficulty to deal with first.

My question is, if I bench my priest and druid/paladin, can you give me some suggestions for what to replace them with that will increase my party's damage output whilst still giving me some decent party healing?

 

[Shai Hulud]

4 hours ago, Vasvary5050 said:

Thanks to @thelee@limaxophobiacq@Boeroer @Kaylon @Shai Hulud for all the in-depth analysis and suggestions. I really appreciate it.

Rather than starting again, I'm slowly swapping out my companions/hirelings. I've kept my War Caller for now as my only tank (who can also chant-summon meat shields). I've removed my second tank completely, replacing with a Devoted (hunting bow)/Ghostheart using the Essence Interrupter that @Boeroermentioned above. I probably should have combined ranger with rogue or berserker or helwalker, but I went for Devoted in the end to get the +5 penetration from devoted and penetrating strikes. In any case, this change by itself has already made a huge difference, making the fights go quicker and the bow often morphing dead enemies into 2-skull allies to help me. I hadn't realised this bow summoned in such powerful allies, and with POTD upscale also upscaling my summons, it feels like a game changer. I've also now given my Mindstalker Tekanhu's rod (Watershaper's Focus), which I'm using to apply the rogue attacks. It's smashing and blinding packs of enemies, with the rod's AoE blast modal, and the rod's leaping arc, which is rather nice.

The thing about penetrating strikes is it is an active ability that gets you ONE shot, and in the tough fights, where you're going to get wiped, you will run out of fighter resources without a cipher spamming ancestor's memory, and he probably can't do that fast enough for you to use penetrating strikes most shots. It is much better to stack passive bonuses, like berserker's frenzy while not a true passive can buy you 10 or 15 shots with Essence Interrupter, while benefiting from the bonus might, action speed, and hit to crit in addition to the +2 PEN.

The main draw of a devoted is the +2 PEN and bonus crit damage IMO. 

I would also consider very high accuracy ranged builds versus high PEN builds. Seers can achieve even higher penetration because of how crits work. Your devoted with penetrating strikes, razor skewers, and a legendary essence interrupter has 17 PEN (when using the ability, otherwise 14), which is either enough to penetrate or in rare cases not. Compare a seer with 13 PEN who crits every shot, that is translated to 13*1.5 rounded up to 20 PEN which will get through basically everything. This is large reason why ascendant / arcane archer was suggested (in addition to cipher versatility and imbued attacks). 

Devoted/ghost heart does help with the accuracy, at least if you use the pet correctly, so it's not bad I just think you're overemphasizing penetration (particularly penetrating strike) in this case.

4 hours ago, Vasvary5050 said:

I'm not sure what to do with my final 2 characters. Looking at @Kaylon's 3 party suggestions, I can see that I've gone way over the top with support/healers  and I need to fix this. Looking at Kaylon's 3 party suggestions in turn, it looks like party #1 has the paladin/troubadour as healer, party #2 has the troubadour/priest, and party #3 doesn't really have a healer at all (though I presume the SG, troubadour or ascendant are meant to do a bit of healing?). Notably, no druid in any of the 3 setups, and a priest in only one of them. My problem is, while I am surviving fights on POTD upscaled - so far no one has died in any fights - in some fights I'm taking a lot of damage, surviving by the skin of my teeth, and it feels like the only thing keeping party members from dropping is the Druid/Paladin who is pumping out healing with the Druid's HoTs and the Paladin's Flames of Devotion (dual-wielding range). I haven't yet figured out how to keep my party alive at this difficulty without the crutch of a lot of healing. I think I could probably survive without the Druid's Hots, or without the Flames of Devotion, but not without at least one or the other. Maybe I could replace the Druid/Paladin with a Helwalker/Paladin and that would be more of a healer/damage-dealer hybrid. 

The best way not to die is to prevent damage in the first place. This is about killing the enemy quickly, and/or stacking so much armor that enemies underpenetrate (-75% damage) or don't penetrate (-25%) and stacking defenses so they miss or graze (-50%). A graze combined with underpenetration is basically nothing. Second best way not to die is passive healing, like ancient memory and steel garrote passive. Third best is active heals that take time to cast. In kaylon's third party, there is plenty of healing, it is just not of the form "cast a spell and heal everyone". FF/SG has so much armor, deflection, etc. that he takes very little damage and what damage he takes...

The FF attack itself also heals in addition to SG passive. As a paladin this character can also use lay on hands in an emergency but for himself it will never be necessary.

A skald/berserker meanwhile can use stalwart defiance, but more important can chant ancient memory + mercy and kindness or her courage thick as steel. Can also use "Rejoice My Comrades" in emergencies.

Assassin/tactician has unbending which can provide a ton of healing, though probably you'd prefer to keep this character out of the fray.

Blood mage / troubadour has a small amount of self-healing from blood mage passive, also can have high armor and defenses from wizard spells, and can also chant ancient memory, her courage thick as steel, or mercy and kindness, as needed. Wizards can also drink potions of final stand and use wall of draining to extend it indefinitely (as a blood mage). 

Ascendent/arcane archer can cast pain block as needed. Has no self-healing but this isn't a problem as this character stays out of the fray, and if he does need healing the paladin can deal with it, or he can just drink a potion. 

4 hours ago, Vasvary5050 said:

On the other hand, my priest feels like a third-wheel most of the fight, useful for Dire Blessing, Devotions of the Faithful, Shining Beacon, but not much else at the moment. I do really like Devotions of the Faithful and Shining Beacon, but I could probably dump the priest and put in a more dedicated damage dealer in their place, perhaps a ranged Berserker/Streetfighter like @Boeroersuggested, or a Devoted/Berserker, or a forbidden Fist (though if I go for another melee, I probably should ramp back on the summons).

My party is only level 8/7 (8 for MC and Xoti, 7 for the hired characters) at the moment, so this may all smooth out at higher levels when more character abilities come online, but with POTD upscaling, there seems to be plenty of front-loaded difficulty to deal with first.

At your current level some characters may be underdeveloped or not have the gear they need. Like tanks really need sufficient armor they don't get damaged when hit. There is a huge, huge drop-off in damage from when you have 14 armor and enemy has 14 pen versus when you have 16 armor (-75% damage). 

4 hours ago, Vasvary5050 said:

My question is, if I bench my priest and druid/paladin, can you give me some suggestions for what to replace them with that will increase my party's damage output whilst still giving me some decent party healing?

Okay so your current party is unbroken/troubadour, devoted/ghostheart, and assassin/ascendant, plus Aloth and Xoti? And you want to remove the last two? So you still don't have a great tank, but war caller is okay I guess. Devoted/ghost heart does solid damage. Assassin/ascendant, not really sure what this character's role is? For damage...

Many high damage builds. Mine were with the caveat of including both a druid and priest. And BTW there is nothing wrong with having druids and priests! But you should not look at them as healers or just support. A SC druid can be a tremendous damage dealer. Helwalker/priest is also very good. With the druid his main role should be casting things like insect swarm, relentless storm, avenging storm, venombloom, etc., and throws out nature's balm or moonwell if needed. And helwalker/priest is versatile, you can use this character as a high DPS striker or pull back for support. Or both. Start fights with a couple buffs, then beat things with your fists, using withdraw in emergencies. 

So in general you want chars who if they're going to get hit have high defenses and armor, and preferably self-healing, and hopefully can still do damage. Forbidden fists are really overpowered as tanks because not only are they tremendous tanks, e.g. FF/SG iron wheel stacks with exalted endurance and eventually stoic steel, but they have good self-healing, and their attacks do a lot of single target damage and enfeeble. SC FF eventually gets WOTW which does multitarget damage. If you keep up Llengrath's Safeguard and other spells wizards can be very tanky too. There are tons of high damage builds, e.g. 

FF, helwalker / priest, blood mage / assassin, FF / soul blade, berserker / streetfighter, stalker / soul blade, berserker / devoted, helwalker / blood mage, troubadour / sharpshooter, troubadour / FF, barbarian / FF, barbarian / soul blade, FF / streetfighter, blood mage / soul blade, bellower / priest, SC druid

A simple solution is to make one a FF, they are pretty fire and forget once you make like a 3 block script to spam FF. For the other one, IDK, I'd just pick one you like, personally I'd probably go with a SC druid, they become really devastating when you get the sword Effort (Hemorhaging upgrade) combined with Avenging Storm and are decent before then. Furies do the most damage but can't heal so I'd probably go with a shifter or animist. 

You were originally going with a blood mage / soul blade, which is extremely high DPS by L13. Why did you change your mind? The build is a little complex but I've written on it extensively if interested

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/131992-advice-on-a-hierophant-build/

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/131345-build-guide-the-soul-devourer-multiclass-blood-mage-soul-blade-optimal-for-potd-solo/

Edited May 15, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Vasvary5050]

3 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Compare a seer with 13 PEN who crits every shot, that is translated to 13*1.5 rounded up to 20 PEN which will get through basically everything.

This is a good point, and yes, I guess it makes penetration really not so important for high accuracy build. 

Thanks again for the useful analysis. I think at this point, from what everyone has said, I should really start again for a faster smoother run. I'm not dying yet, but I can tell it's not quite working well. I made some questionable picks up front and I'm just tweaking now to try to make it better, when really I probably just need to do another reset. If I start again (again), how is the following composition:

1) Paladin/Troubadour

2) Bloodmage/Soulblade - never played a bloodmage or a soulblade so should be interesting. Not sure why I didn't go with this in the first place as I originally intended.

3) Seer (Ghostheart/ascendant)

4) Berserker/Rogue [I've never played a Berserker, let alone a Berserker Street-Fighter, so I'm a bit apprehensive about it]. Or I guess I could go for the easier to manage Berserker/Devoted

5) Something (not sure what, maybe a SC druid)

[Shai Hulud]

9 hours ago, Vasvary5050 said:

This is a good point, and yes, I guess it makes penetration really not so important for high accuracy build. 

Thanks again for the useful analysis. I think at this point, from what everyone has said, I should really start again for a faster smoother run. I'm not dying yet, but I can tell it's not quite working well. I made some questionable picks up front and I'm just tweaking now to try to make it better, when really I probably just need to do another reset. If I start again (again), how is the following composition:

1) Paladin/Troubadour

2) Bloodmage/Soulblade - never played a bloodmage or a soulblade so should be interesting. Not sure why I didn't go with this in the first place as I originally intended.

3) Seer (Ghostheart/ascendant)

4) Berserker/Rogue [I've never played a Berserker, let alone a Berserker Street-Fighter, so I'm a bit apprehensive about it]. Or I guess I could go for the easier to manage Berserker/Devoted

5) Something (not sure what, maybe a SC druid)

For paladin/troubadour I would go goldpact knight for the "blessing of gold" they get from sworn enemy and sworn rival / brand enemy. This give them +4 armor for a decent number of hits, four or five, and it is a cheap cast. Will help you with tanking early since the other big paladin armor thing is stoic steel which you dont' get until L19. This is a solid choice for a tank though, and can also do summoning, support, and some CC as needed. 

Bloodmage / soulblade eventually plays like an offtank, but during early levels will be more of a second row striker with a staff or pike, or can be used as backrow caster. What really brings the build together is L13 when you get borrowed instinct, llengrath's safeguard, and citzal's spirit lance. The lance makes collecting focus trivial, and you can send it back out through the lance with soul annihilation, which will hit every single enemy in the lance's AOE radius, so if your focus is full and you hit five enemies you'd do about 1000 damage, and can refill it in one or two hits. Lance also has extended range and can be used behind your main tank if needed. Before then, you could use a high DPS bow to get focus, but you need a melee weapon for soul annihilation so I am a big fan of Concelhaut's Parasitic Quarterstaff. It isn't the fastest at collecting focus but does solid damage and you can use soul annihilation without having to be on the front row, plus it will heal you a decent amount. The staff remains a good alternative for highly pierce resistant enemies, though another option for pierce resistant enemies is target an adjacent enemy with the lance, and the AOE attack does crush damage, so as long as something isn't resistant to both pierce and crush (basically nothing) the lance typically works. Only real exceptions are 1 on 1 fights versus pierce-resistant things like Dorudugan, where you'd want the staff.

Ghostheart / ascendant is a solid choice for ranged damage dealer and offensive cipher spells. Generally what you do is keep up borrowed instinct, summon your companion to flank an enemy, then use a high DPS bow (like Essence Interrupter or Frostseeker) to attack that enemy. When you reach ascended, go nuts with disintegration, soul ignition, mental binding, ancestor's memory, pain block, echoing shield, secret horrors, phantom foes, whatever is needed. You can easily script your character to attack what your animal companion is attacking, just use these blocks, then when you reach ascended you can take manual control of your character, disable the AI, or add more blocks for cipher spells (unfortunately there's no conditional to check if you are ascended without an AI mod).  The top two blocks summon your companion if you don't have one or he falls unconscious, and they summon the companion near a marked prey if possible. The last block has your character attack whatever the animal is attacking. You can't script the animal himself so I find rangers are easiest to control if you script the human and control the animal. Though the animal should auto-attack the marked prey after being summoned near it (provided its AI isn't turned off), so you probably won't have to do anything besides maybe retarget him to priority targets now and then. It says "being attacked by my animal companion" in the priority block btw. 

Either berserker / streetfighter or berserker / devoted could work for the fourth. I'd pick whatever you're comfortable with. You could use either character for ranged or melee. One thing to note about berserker/devoted, you get the weapon proficiency you pick PLUS unarmed, so take monastic unarmed training and you can use the character as a very solid offtank early with either dual fists or fist + tuotilo's palm, then later when the blood mage / soul blade becomes the big offtank, have him switch to a bow (Essence Interrupter or Frostseeker again are fantastic, so probably pick hunting bows or war bows, whichever the ascendant won't be using). 

And for your fifth a single class druid is solid, they can do a lot of damage and support if necessary. Grab the sword Effort from Bekarna's Folly, enchant with Hemorrhaging and this character's DPS becomes nuts using avenging storm (it causes ANY crit to produce avenging storm bolts, like crits from pulsing spells like venombloom and insect plague). For subclass any of them could work (besides fury), though I'd probably pick shifter or ancient personally. Fury not being able to cast rejuvenation spells is too much of a downside in a party IMO, and lifegiver can't summon, which may or may not be a problem given you have a troubadour, but some of the druid summons are really good (like call to the primordials, bog ooze mainly, also the summon sporeling from ancient is very good for a L1 spell). Shifter has good default spell selections so even if you don't plan to shapeshift it is still slightly better than animist IMO.

So one possible party based on this list: goldpact knight / troubadour, bloodmage / soulblade, ghostheart / ascendant, berserker/devoted, SC Shifter

I think this looks very solid but you may want to wait for other veterans to chime in

 

[Vasvary5050]

Thanks @Shai Hulud and everyone else. I really appreciate your help. This is a nice helpful community :)