[CLASS BUILD] Lactose Intolerant Armored Arcanist - Solo Upscaled POTD with Balance Polishing Mod

[Not So Clever Hound]

4 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

The challenge was meant to be near-impossible and with BPM may actually be impossible

I think you're right about that, maybe not using Greater Grimoire Imprints to steal every useful spell in the game but that would be so hard/tedious in a proper Ultimate run.

6 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Your Armored Arcanist may not be lore-friendly but he doesn't use and bugs or even exploits, and that's pretty impressive. 

Thanks! Well by the way, one thing I really like about your Soul Devourer is how lore-friendly it is. Watcher used to be a regular Cipher or Mage, learned some new tricks while chilling with his buddies in Caed Nua, then Eothas messed him up, came back as a blood mage & cipher hungry for souls and went around to feed his hunger and get more powerful and deadly with every kill, using a sweet necklace with (ahem) unique properties.

[Not So Clever Hound]

2 hours ago, Yellow-eye four said:

I have a question, how to get rikuhu blessing without removing all my other rest bonus?

You must use the Bleakrock shrine on Crookspur Island, not the one on Poko Kohara. You might need to save/reload a couple time but at some point while trying to pray there you will get interrupted, then you can pass a check and leave - getting the +2 RES without triggering a rest. It's in the wiki:

https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Bleakrock_Shrine

[Shai Hulud]

2 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I think you're right about that, maybe not using Greater Grimoire Imprints to steal every useful spell in the game but that would be so hard/tedious in a proper Ultimate run.

Thanks! Well by the way, one thing I really like about your Soul Devourer is how lore-friendly it is. Watcher used to be a regular Cipher or Mage, learned some new tricks while chilling with his buddies in Caed Nua, then Eothas messed him up, came back as a blood mage & cipher hungry for souls and went around to feed his hunger and get more powerful and deadly with every kill, using a sweet necklace with (ahem) unique properties.

Yeah I can get around all the Magran's Fire challenges even with the nerfs except for Vela. With the recovery time it makes directly attacking problematic.

Blood mage is a must because you need infinite withdraw casts. So there's pure blood mage and blood mage / X hybrids. The escape and Shadowing Beyond spells are both super useful because they have no recovery, so you can zip across the battlefield and cast withdraw. Shadowing Beyond is obviously better because we're also invisible...can also steal Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure but it has a 4.5 second recovery so Shadowing Beyond is much better.

Ah, pure blood mage could do it. Probably what you were thinking of... Pure blood mage, once you steal Shadowing Beyond we can cast from invisibility, yes? Defensive spells and summons, anyway, right? So you level up out of combat until Beina is upscaled to have Shadowing Beyond. You can lure her out one on one and steal a lot of fantastic spells from her and her priests who are a different subtype. Her priests have Withdraw and she has Escape and should have Shadowing Beyond upscaled. Anyway, after that you just cast summons while invisible and time the withdraw cycles so you're never recovering from anything when she comes out. Cast stolen Essential Phantom or Watery Double, Spiritual Ally etc., and you just hide, cast summons if not near the end of a withdraw cycle, and repop withdraw immediately every 20 + INT modifier seconds. 

You'd want to maximize INT for longer spell duration. Max PER so grimoire imprint hits. CON is good at first, then only slightly matters. RES good at first, then doesn't matter. High DEX is less tedious but not strictly necessary. MIG doesn't matter at all. Guess I'd do something like 3 / 13 / 19 / 19 / 19 / 5, or a more balanced 3 / 12 / 15 / 19 / 19 / 10, wood elf, old vailia. 

Hmm. I want to try this now. Would be pretty tedious and every bit as cheesy as anything in vanilla though. Kind of ironic BPM made blood mage even more dominant. Quite a few class combinations can do the ultimate in vanilla. I think in BPM it's just blood mage and maybe blood mage / X. Theoretically we could do basically the same thing casting out of Arkemyr's Grimoire as a bloodmage / x, and use blood sacrifice to get back Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure, but ABD has a 4.5 second recovery so not as good a spell. 

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Thanks, I didn't really think about the backstory in POE1 with the Soul Devourer, but we can assume the watcher was a little evil already having sacrificed a buddy to become more powerful and then came back in POE2 with a broken soul and insatiable bloodlust, needing to slaughter everything in sight to steal their soul energy and grow more powerful. It really is a great build for a neutral or chaotic evil type run. 

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Regarding Bleakrock Shrine you don't have to save scum, I actually "rested" there during my ultimate run. Just have religion 15 and high diplomacy (don't remember, probably 12+), do NOT look around with the survival check, and the slavers will always appear assuming you haven't been to Crookspur yet. Not sure what happens if you've already wiped out the slavers at Crookspurr.

The shrine that requires save scumming is Teo Ramunga on Neketaka Island. I haven't figured it out but it has something to do with time of day. It isn't random. It either always works or it never works, so merely reloading won't help, you'd have to reload and then waste some time and come back. 

And the other resolve shrine always forces a rest, so don't do the one on Poko Kahara. 

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

do NOT look around with the survival check, and the slavers will always appear

Aaah that's why probably I didn't get the slavers sometimes. Thanks!

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

Hmm. I want to try this now. Would be pretty tedious and every bit as cheesy as anything in vanilla though. Kind of ironic BPM made blood mage even more dominant. Quite a few class combinations can do the ultimate in vanilla. I think in BPM it's just blood mage and maybe blood mage / X.

I think you're definitely onto something and yeah, I think SC Blood Mage would be solid, though tedious to get fully set-up.

If you managed to steal Concelhaut's Crushing Doom (besides Concie, I think some of the Librarians or Vithrak or some other enemies in Forgotten Sanctum have it in their spellbook, I got pummeled with it the other day ) then you could shut down and kill bosses and even some groups of enemies easily.

I had tried that a while back just for fun. You could just endlessly use Shadowing Beyond, Withdraw on Vela and Crushing Doom on enemies. And because of the stacking effects every time the hammer hits, your strength or the enemie's resolve etc would quickly become irrelevant re. damage and interrupt (though of course some enemies would be immune to interrupts).

I agree there is some irony there  about Blood Mage being the king of BPM. If I recall correctly, Elric had mentioned that trying to fix the spell stealing trick would be incredibly hard, if at all possible.

EDIT: not really relevant to the Ultimate idea, but SC Blood Mage can Enfeeble with Concelhaut's Corrosive Skin under BPM and that is really nice. Also re. you stat spread, if I had only one life and no ability to cast Power Word: Reload, I might shoot for 35 Resolve with all the buffs to make sure any odd attack that connects while I'm not invisible does not end my run. I have grown to be a huge fan of that tremendous % hostile effect reduction, it is such a lifesaver. It also of course has the benefit to boost your Will, AND your Deflection to huge levels.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Not So Clever Hound

[Shai Hulud]

  

14 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Aaah that's why probably I didn't get the slavers sometimes. Thanks!

I think you're definitely onto something and yeah, I think SC Blood Mage would be solid, though tedious to get fully set-up.

If you managed to steal Concelhaut's Crushing Doom (besides Concie, I think some of the Librarians or Vithrak or some other enemies in Forgotten Sanctum have it in their spellbook, I got pummeled with it the other day ) then you could shut down and kill bosses and even some groups of enemies easily.

I had tried that a while back just for fun. You could just endlessly use Shadowing Beyond, Withdraw on Vela and Crushing Doom on enemies. And because of the stacking effects every time the hammer hits, your strength or the enemie's resolve would quickly become irrelevant re. damage and interrupt (though of course some enemies would be immune to interrupts).

I agree there is some irony there  about Blood Mage being the king of BPM. If I recall correctly, Elric had mentioned that trying to fix the spell stealing trick would be incredibly hard, if at all possible.

EDIT: not really relevant to the Ultimate idea, but SC Blood Mage can Enfeeble with Concelhaut's Corrosive Skin under BPM and that is really nice. Also re. you stat spread, if I had only one life and no ability to cast Power Word: Reload, I might shoot for 35 Resolve with all the buffs to make sure any odd attack that connects while I'm not invisible does not end my run. I have grown to be a huge fan of that tremendous % hostile effect reduction, it is such a lifesaver. It also of course has the benefit to boost your Will, AND your Deflection to huge levels.

I usually dump resolve because it seems to do less than the other stats you want, and eventually it becomes relatively useless besides contributing to will. In general though relying on high stats so you can take a hit is riskier than ensuring you don't take any hits. It is better to just avoid combat until I have shadowing beyond. Obviously I have to survive that combat but it's one on one and I'd be level 16 by then. Still might be risky casting grimoire imprint and blood sacrifice over and over while Beina hits me. With bad luck it can take dozens of casts before you get the spell you need. It would be safer and easier to do that encounter at a lower level and just steal escape and withdraw. Escape has no recovery so you can zip away from enemies over and over while passive healing kicks in. It's easier to get escape than shadowing beyond because minor grimoire imprint demands less health for a level 4 spell, and it only searches spell slots 1 to 3, and she has 6 such spells, so 1 in 6 chance per cast. To get shadowing beyond is 1 in 14 per cast. Problem is I'm not sure who else I can grab Shadowing Beyond from if I kill her for Escape. The Fampyr Priests are Skaen but they're pretty rough if I don't already have Shadowing Beyond.  I think I just have to delay that encounter until I'm L16+. But reaching L16 in ultimate without combat is difficult... I'm usually L13 when I do that encounter, if I go straight from Neketaka to Hasongo to Beina. And I like that route because the shamans on Hasongo only have two spells, Nature's Balm and The Moon's Light IIRC. Both very handy in a pinch.  But I suppose I could stealth my way through Maje => Sandswept => Deadlight => Neketaka => Dunnage => Crookspur => Hasongo => Beina but I think that puts me around L15 not L16. Hmm. Really unfortunate Poko Kahara has a forced fight at the end, because I think that would do it. It's not a super hard fight normally but IDK in BPM. Eothas challenge keeps me from doing anything too circuitous. Ah well, maybe I'll start a thread asking about that. Don't mean to hijack yours. Need to be L16 for Beina or else find another Priest of Skaen I can fight with just withdraw + escape. Or maybe I can do some minor fights without stolen spells, but the stats are spread so I kinda suck at fighting. Some scrolls of Moonwell are probably enough for fights I can kite like Beina, but like the Poko Kahara fight IDK, this build would not be very tanky...

If you make Resolve 18 to tank some early fights, what are you dumping? High INT seems most important for less frequent withdraw casts and longer durations of shadowing beyond. I guess if you're tanky enough you don't really need high perception but it makes stealing spells take a lot longer. You do steal on grazes so don't really need it super high unless you want to steal from harder enemies but the spell targets fortitude so it does miss a lot. Can't dump CON too much or blood sacrifice will kill us. Don't need max DEX but we don't want recovery times super high. Might is the only really safe dump stat unfortunately...

I don't need resolve for hostile effect reduction. Outworn buckler can clear afflictions pretty fast, unless that was nerfed. Didn't see anything about it in BPM notes though. Also can heal with Lethandria so the loss of passive healing buffs from SOF is not that bad. It's mainly the recovery time. For some reason you have to wait several seconds after hitting someone with your stick before you can hit them again. 

In Infinity Engine games you started out like that but your attacks per round increased as you leveled up. Fighter / X chars could get 4 to 5 attacks per round unhasted. Mages could cast AND attack each round. In POE2 that doesn't really happen. You can get some minor temporary buffs that reduce recovery time, mainly by increasing dexterity, but it is pretty static unfortunately. I mean there's deleterious and relentless strikes but they're relatively minor buffs compared to their POE predecessors. For the most part you are attacking at the same speed at level 1 as level 20.

[Not So Clever Hound]

50 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

I don't need resolve for hostile effect reduction. Outworn buckler can clear afflictions pretty fast, unless that was nerfed.

Yes indeed I forgot about quick switch between Outworn Buckler and Lethandria. I don't usually use it but it also works in BPM.

50 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Ah well, maybe I'll start a thread asking about that. Don't mean to hijack yours. Need to be L16 for Beina or else find another Priest of Skaen I can fight with just withdraw + escape.

No worries, it's a good question. I seem to remember @dgray62 had found other Priests of Skaen to steal spells from, easier than Beina or the Fampyrs. Maybe in Fort Deadlight, or in Crookspur, or in a slaver ship maybe? Am I dreaming this dgray62?  

I also remembered in the meantime that my beloved Crushing Doom can be stolen from Iverra and from Katrenn, no need to go mess with FS.

EDIT: In the meantime I realized there should be a Skaenite Priest relatively easy in the Wāpau Jungle interaction! EDIT2... of course not, it only works if you have companions in tow..

Edited January 19, 2023 by Not So Clever Hound

[Shai Hulud]

2 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Yes indeed I forgot about quick switch between Outworn Buckler and Lethandria. I don't usually use it but it also works in BPM.

No worries, it's a good question. I seem to remember @dgray62 had found other Priests of Skaen to steal spells from, easier than Beina or the Fampyrs. Maybe in Fort Deadlight, or in Crookspur, or in a slaver ship maybe? Am I dreaming this dgray62?  

I also remembered in the meantime that my beloved Crushing Doom can be stolen from Iverra and from Katrenn, no need to go mess with FS.

EDIT: In the meantime I realized there should be a Skaenite Priest relatively easy in the Wāpau Jungle interaction! EDIT2... of course not, it only works if you have companions in tow..

I wrote a long reply to this like an hour ago and it looked like it posted but I can see now it's gone. This forum freaking hates me. I'm surprised I can even post today frankly, because for the past couple weeks every time but once I got an error saying the boards were down when they clearly weren't.

I don't remember the contents as I started to ramble, but yeah there should be other skaenites out there though I'd be surprised if they're slavers since that is antithetical to lore (but maybe, because skaen is "evil" and slavers are evil). Fort Deadlight makes more sense...

And I recall seeing Crushing Doom several times, but not who had it besides Katrenn. That spell is both funny and annoying to see if you're using Arcane Reflection, because the enemy AI is stupid and they always cast the spell anyway and end up killing themselves before I can steal their spells. I had to make an altered version of my script for fights where I wanted to steal spells because they kept dying too fast.

Just installed community patch and BPM and all that. Realized after I can't actually do an Ultimate run because it disables mods. But I can individually select all the trials and whatnot. Do you use the buffs and the nerfs or just nerfs? Also this weird potion that seems pretty powerful. Like a mini-brilliant that can't be removed through afflictions.

------

Ah man, I just saw Withdraw was nerfed. Well, nerfed / buffed. Its duration isn't affected by intelligence in BPM? Why? That is so completely arbitrary. The base duration was extended from 20 to 30 but my INT is usually so high this is a nerf for me, and a rather pointless one. The key spells for my imaginary build are Shadowing Beyond and Withdraw. Having to cast them a ton is annoying. Shadowing Beyond has duration of 15s. One could make an argument for dumping INT for a modified duration of 10 now so Withdraw is easy to time as 2 shadowing beyonds. Or a modified INT of 30, so withdraw is exactly two shadowing beyonds. I can't script withdraw casts so having the timing easy to remember is actually important. Hmm. Either dump it or max it. Weird. I guess summons also benefit from maxed INT. Need to look at various summon durations... 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Not So Clever Hound]

46 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

I wrote a long reply to this like an hour ago and it looked like it posted but I can see now it's gone. This forum freaking hates me.

That sucks. I'm still having tons of trouble too, just liking a post isn't possible sometimes.

46 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Do you use the buffs and the nerfs or just nerfs?

Personally I use both, also potion of enlightenment although I've yet to use it.

46 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Ah man, I just saw Withdraw was nerfed.

Yes it's either a buff or a nerf (a burff?) depending on whether you're using the spell legitimately, stole the spell, or use the scroll version and what your INT or Arcana stat is. I can't remember why Elric made it fixed duration. Might have to do with the fact that when you are confused you can withdraw an enemy which can be very strong if you do so for like one minute at a time (e.g. Hauani when it splits). Other than for Magran Fires/Vela shenanigans, I'm not sad about this one because it's so annoying when enemies withdraw their buddies forever. Arguably, nothing is stopping you from going in the override folder and getting rid of that particular component.

46 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

should be other skaenites out there though I'd be surprised if they're slavers since that is antithetical to lore

So the priests on slaver ships are Eothas (which doesn't make much sense either ).

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Not So Clever Hound

[thelee]

4 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Other than for Magran Fires/Vela shenanigans, I'm not sad about this one because it's so annoying when enemies withdraw their buddies forever.

yeah, I can't peer into @Elric Galad's head, but I seem to recall this was a factor, just the quality-of-life aspect.

[dgray62]

7 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Yes indeed I forgot about quick switch between Outworn Buckler and Lethandria. I don't usually use it but it also works in BPM.

No worries, it's a good question. I seem to remember @dgray62 had found other Priests of Skaen to steal spells from, easier than Beina or the Fampyrs. Maybe in Fort Deadlight, or in Crookspur, or in a slaver ship maybe? Am I dreaming this dgray62?  

I also remembered in the meantime that my beloved Crushing Doom can be stolen from Iverra and from Katrenn, no need to go mess with FS.

EDIT: In the meantime I realized there should be a Skaenite Priest relatively easy in the Wāpau Jungle interaction! EDIT2... of course not, it only works if you have companions in tow..

In Fort Deadlight there are several skaenite celebrants. They can be found in the gang of thugs who appear on the roof close to where you emerge from Aenyls' headquarters. However, they only appear if you blow up the oil barrel at the top of the stairs, save and reload. There's no aggro or reputation hit if you kill them. Another group appears on the steps up to the fort's keep once you get the party started. However, if you kill them, you aggro everyone on the open area surrounding the keep.

There's also a skaenite priest among the cannibals in the abandoned temple of Tangeloa on the island south of Port Make that you need to explore for the first quest for the mapmaker in Neketaka. There's none on the slaver ships; the priest there is Eothasan, strangely. The priests on the Valian ships are Waelite, and the Huana ships have priests of Berath. If you get the Moonbow that I mentioned above and use it with a priest, you can steal a ton of great priest spells just from ship battles.

Edited January 19, 2023 by dgray62
Correcting autocorrect

[Not So Clever Hound]

Thanks mate! Impressive, I knew I was reaching out to the expert . I was wondering about the Tangaloa Ruins cannibals - awesome that you already have the answer. That is likely the best shot for an Ultimate Run I guess per @Shai Hulud's question, as I'm assuming the save/reload in Fort Deadlight wouldn't work (?). Never tried The Ultimate and seldom use Magran's Fires.

This got me all worked up to do a SC Blood Mage run to go steal all the spells... dammit.

[Shai Hulud]

52 minutes ago, dgray62 said:

In Fort Deadlight there are several skaenite celebrants. They can be found in the gang of thugs who appear on the roof close to where you emerge from Aenyls' headquarters. However, they only appear if you blow up the oil barrel at the top of the stairs, save and reload. There's no aggro or reputation hit if you kill them. Another group appears on the steps up to the fort's keep once you get the party started. However, if you kill them, you aggro everyone on the open area surrounding the keep.

There's also a skaenite priest among the cannibals in the abandoned temple of Tangeloa on the island south of Port Make that you need to explore for the first quest for the mapmaker in Neketaka. There's none on the slaver ships; the priest there is Eothasan, strangely. The priests on the Valian ships are Waelite, and the Huana ships have priests of Berath. If you get the Moonbow that I mentioned above and use it with a priest, you can steal a ton of great priest spells just from ship battles.

Moonbow? What is that? (edit-nvm found it on previous page)

So they're on the roof outside Aeldys' quarters? Is this just during Blow the Man Down or are they still there later? I usually go to Deadlight right away for Bow the Man Down from Maje and don't have Minor Grimoire Imprint yet. Tangaloa Island is pretty far out of the way also unless I go there right after Maje but again no Minor Grimoire Imprint yet unfortunately. Could go there between Dorudugan and Beast of Winter but that is pretty late in game. Hmm.

Good to know about the Berathian priests on Huana ships. I thought the only source of those spells was Ysyr and that encounter is kinda rough. Thanks!

17 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Thanks mate! Impressive, I knew I was reaching out to the expert . I was wondering about the Tangaloa Ruins cannibals - awesome that you already have the answer. That is likely the best shot for an Ultimate Run I guess per @Shai Hulud's question, as I'm assuming the save/reload in Fort Deadlight wouldn't work (?). Never tried The Ultimate and seldom use Magran's Fires.

This got me all worked up to do a SC Blood Mage run to go steal all the spells... dammit.

Well you can save and it quits the game, then you can load. It would look kinda save-scummy though and that's a weird spot to end a session if I were to record them. You can't *reload* but yes can save/load or else you'd have to do the whole thing in one sitting. Might be against the spirit of the challenge, IDK. 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[dgray62]

Sorry, I forgot that this was an ultimate run. The hostile group with the skaenite celebrant only reliably appears if I blow up the oil barrel then save and reload. I have no idea under what conditions they are supposed to appear. If I don't do that, the area where they appear, right below the stairs leading down to the lower part of the roof where the god killer rum can be looted, is empty. On the other hand, the group on the steps going up to the keep are always there after I finish the Blow the Man Down quest, but they're non hostile, and if you attack them you anger every on that screen.

[Shai Hulud]

7 hours ago, dgray62 said:

Sorry, I forgot that this was an ultimate run. The hostile group with the skaenite celebrant only reliably appears if I blow up the oil barrel then save and reload. I have no idea under what conditions they are supposed to appear. If I don't do that, the area where they appear, right below the stairs leading down to the lower part of the roof where the god killer rum can be looted, is empty. On the other hand, the group on the steps going up to the keep are always there after I finish the Blow the Man Down quest, but they're non hostile, and if you attack them you anger every on that screen.

I'm heading to Deadlight now. L6 but should be L7 by the time I finish Blow the Man Down. Can murder Aloth and use his grimoire to steal escape. The celebrants are multiclass but should get escape at L7 also. Then I can save Beina for L16 and steal Shadowing Beyond. Or I can figure out how to get to L16 without combat and without going way out of my way, then go to Beina. The pathing is kinda tricky. Usually I'd be around 13 when I go to Beina after Hasongo, if I went from Hasongo to Dunnage to Crookspur to Beina I think I'd be L15. I could go north and do Nemnok's quest but pretty out of the way since I have to come back and kill him. Hmmmmm..if the boots of cheese still worked like they used to I could do Bekarna's Folly, but they don't. Could throw in Poko Kahara but that requires a battle at the end. Maybe doable if I stock up on scrolls especially if I already have escape and withdraw.

First I'll try to find those celebrants. I can technically save and load, I just need to time it at the end of a session if I'm recording or it looks sketch. That is really weird they only spawn if you blow up an oil barrel though...

This is just a practice run though, I'm not used to BPM changes yet, probably be a while before I can do an actual "ultimate" run. Not technically ultimate since that turns off mods, but I already did a real ultimate so whatever. This should be harder anyway. 

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I got to Deadlight and I haven't looked for the celebrant that spawns by the barrel yet, was completing Blow the Man Down and saw quite a few celebrant guards around, but most of them aggro everyone. But there is one in the secret dock you can kill without repercussions. However the fight is pretty tough because the enemies start out neutral so you can't kite them and have to take on several at once. Exploding the gunpowder barrel in the middle takes out most of the group but leaves 2 to 5 guys depending how lucky you are. The spellblade is also a source of spell theft but doesn't have anything particularly great (though free casts are free casts). I'm trying to figure out how to group the enemies so I take out as many as possible but not the spellblade or celebrant. The celebrant usually is out of the explosion. I remember on a normal POTD solo run I could take the whole group out by throwing a sparkcracker first, then blowing up the barrels, but Vela is really, really stupid and she runs towards sparkcrackers and gets blown up, so...hmm. 

I don't have enough good equipment yet, scrolls etc. to make it feasible taking on several at once. If I could reload I'd just cast grimoire imprint on the celebrant and steal escape, then the fight is doable, but that is 1/6 chance so I have to be able to take some hits and use the nerfed blood sacrifice that destroys healing in case it takes me a dozen casts. Kinda tricky... Just have two withdraw scrolls also. Don't have any fangs yet so can't make more. This would be much easier if I had already stolen withdraw, but I haven't run into any eothas priests yet I don't think.

Might need to rethink the stat spread. I dumped might and resolve and maxed INT DEX and PER because once I get Escape resolve doesn't much matter and after Shadowing Beyond might doesn't matter either. But...I am really bad at combat right now. 

The celebrant is definitely skaen because he just used escape to zip past me and murder vela when I thought I had them engaged...

Edited January 20, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Not So Clever Hound]

5 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

The celebrant is definitely skaen because he just used escape to zip past me and murder vela when I thought I had them engaged...

Good to know there's a few options to find Skaenites! I'm betting Principi ships, Dunnage and the Mad Morena area should give additional options.

[Elric Galad]

21 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Hmm. I want to try this now. Would be pretty tedious and every bit as cheesy as anything in vanilla though. Kind of ironic BPM made blood mage even more dominant. Quite a few class combinations can do the ultimate in vanilla. I think in BPM it's just blood mage and maybe blood mage / X. Theoretically we could do basically the same thing casting out of Arkemyr's Grimoire as a bloodmage / x, and use blood sacrifice to get back Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure, but ABD has a 4.5 second recovery so not as good a spell. 

Yeah, but BPM isn't really made for such extreme gameplay. For standard gameplay, I think I'm pretty satisfied with Blood Mage having more significant drawback but being still enjoyable. And also...

21 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I agree there is some irony there  about Blood Mage being the king of BPM. If I recall correctly, Elric had mentioned that trying to fix the spell stealing trick would be incredibly hard, if at all possible.

Indeed, it is fully hardcoded. So can't be fixed at my level. The only thing I can do would be to remove these spell from the game or giving them a completely different effect. Not fun at all.

16 hours ago, thelee said:

yeah, I can't peer into @Elric Galad's head, but I seem to recall this was a factor, just the quality-of-life aspect.

Basically yes. For withdraw and similar effects, one can't say whether high INT is a buff or an issue. That's why fixed duration was a better way to balance the spell. I get that in Vela's case it's a nerf.

19 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

  

I don't need resolve for hostile effect reduction. Outworn buckler can clear afflictions pretty fast, unless that was nerfed. Didn't see anything about it in BPM notes though. 

I had this on my radar once, but somehow I discarded. The reason why I discarded is that it is pretty simple to avoid by simply not doing this (given that it is significantly tedious to do it evey time one gets an affliction). The reason for some other nerfs was to make the nerfed ability usable without braking the game or running into an easy auto-win combo. Outworn buckler really has to be used in purpose to get the "problem"*.

*Granted that Strand of Favor & Friends are in the same case, but you have to do it only once per run, making it way more tempting...

Edited January 20, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Not So Clever Hound]

26 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Indeed, it is fully hardcoded.

If it's fully hardcoded, then it's totally legitimate and intended.  Seriously though, while having unlimited spells across virtually any vancian caster (whatever the UI can handle) is cheesy as hell, you have to really get out of your way to use it and I think it's fun that it creates a game in the game with its own power curve progression, where you try and figure out which enemies have which spells, how you can steal those etc. Plus, I think it's fun if it leads to the first Ultimate-like run on BPM!

[Shai Hulud]

34 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Yeah, but BPM isn't really made for such extreme gameplay. For standard gameplay, I think I'm pretty satisfied with Blood Mage having more significant drawback but being still enjoyable. And also...

Indeed, it is fully hardcoded. So can't be fixed at my level. The only thing I can do would be to remove these spell from the game or giving them a completely different effect. Not fun at all.

Basically yes. For withdraw and similar effects, one can't say whether high INT is a buff or an issue. That's why fixed duration was a better way to balance the spell. I get that in Vela's case it's a nerf.

I had this on my radar once, but somehow I discarded. The reason why I discarded is that it is pretty simple to avoid by simply not doing this (given that it is significantly tedious to do it evey time one gets an affliction). The reason for some other nerfs was to make the nerfed ability usable without braking the game or running into an easy auto-win combo. Outworn buckler really has to be used in purpose to get the "problem"*.

*Granted that Strand of Favor & Friends are in the same case, but you have to do it only once per run, making it way more tempting...

Actually Outworn Buckler and Lethandria's Devotion procs on switch are easily scriptable...not that I think you should remove them. In my ultimate run that script only triggered once. But if it saves me from a wipe it's worth scripting from my point of view. 

[Not So Clever Hound]

I can't remember if it had been mentioned somewhere already, but even running 100% solo, one can steal the unique spell Ninagauth's Shadowflame from the Rimebound Rathuns in the Enclosures in Forgotten Sanctum. Unlimited Shadowflames with big freeze damage and permanent paralysis is pretty cool.

[Shai Hulud]

9 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I can't remember if it had been mentioned somewhere already, but even running 100% solo, one can steal the unique spell Ninagauth's Shadowflame from the Rimebound Rathuns in the Enclosures in Forgotten Sanctum. Unlimited Shadowflames with big freeze damage and permanent paralysis is pretty cool.

Wow. But how do you know all this? Just grimoire imprinting everything or is there some database of enemy spells I don't know about? I just go by experience and the wiki, which is incomplete regarding a lot of spells...

That said I don't use the Shadowflame that much because of the long casting time. It's great as an opener though. Still pretty badass, definitely one of the better nuke spells. If its cast time were more like fireball it would be god tier. 

[Not So Clever Hound]

9 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Wow. But how do you know all this? Just grimoire imprinting everything or is there some database of enemy spells I don't know about?

Ha no, I just put 2 and 2 together yesterday: I remembered Constentin had posted a thread about stealing unique spells from Rathun Flamecallers, and I remembered that Rathun Rimebound could cast Shadowflame... nothing crazy. I'm sure there's a number of other excellent unique stuff to spellsteal we haven't discovered yet. (I'm thinking probably in Forgotten Sanctum and maybe in some of the SSS encounters).

Shadowflame has a 6s cast/2s recovery yeah, while Fireball is 3s/3s. On the other hand, less recovery is good if you're using Shadowing Beyond to zap around and be invisible.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

10 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Wow. But how do you know all this? Just grimoire imprinting everything or is there some database of enemy spells I don't know about? I just go by experience and the wiki, which is incomplete regarding a lot of spells...

That said I don't use the Shadowflame that much because of the long casting time. It's great as an opener though. Still pretty badass, definitely one of the better nuke spells. If its cast time were more like fireball it would be god tier. 

Short casting time, it was the case in PoE1. 

And yeah, it was broken! 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Shai Hulud]

On 1/19/2023 at 5:06 PM, dgray62 said:

Sorry, I forgot that this was an ultimate run. The hostile group with the skaenite celebrant only reliably appears if I blow up the oil barrel then save and reload. I have no idea under what conditions they are supposed to appear. If I don't do that, the area where they appear, right below the stairs leading down to the lower part of the roof where the god killer rum can be looted, is empty. On the other hand, the group on the steps going up to the keep are always there after I finish the Blow the Man Down quest, but they're non hostile, and if you attack them you anger every on that screen.

So I found a group with a celebrant in the secret dock, but it is a pretty hard encounter so I was trying to spawn this group you're talking about. I went to the northern ramparts from aeldys' quarters, blew up the lamp oil barrel at the top of the stairs on the left (one pirate guard nearby but I could do it just out of her steal detect range), then I saved and reloaded, nothing happened. So then I tried blowing up the lamp oil barrel to the left of the container with the god killer rum. Save, reload. Nothing happened. Am I targeting the wrong container or is there some special trick to this? 

1 hour ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Ha no, I just put 2 and 2 together yesterday: I remembered Constentin had posted a thread about stealing unique spells from Rathun Flamecallers, and I remembered that Rathun Rimebound could cast Shadowflame... nothing crazy. I'm sure there's a number of other excellent unique stuff to spellsteal we haven't discovered yet. (I'm thinking probably in Forgotten Sanctum and maybe in some of the SSS encounters).

Shadowflame has a 6s cast/2s recovery yeah, while Fireball is 3s/3s. On the other hand, less recovery is good if you're using Shadowing Beyond to zap around and be invisible.

That's true, could cast shadowflame from invisibility then shadowing beyond ~1.5s later with dex bonus, maybe less with deleterious. May be useful, though you encounter these guys late game. Any idea if Concelhaut's Draining Missiles is stealable from anyone besides Concelhaut? I've found some "unique" spells on random characters like Eamund the Fox has way more spells than he should including "Ninagauth's Death Ray" but haven't seen the missiles.

I think I should go maje => tangaloa ruins temple => deadlight, I'm only L6 then so I can't steal anything but the crazed warlock has concelhaut's draining touch in his grimoire, and it's only in a couple others IIRC (concelhaut's, menzaggo's, and the mercenary wizard grimoire which the wiki says lady eparo encounter has). This spell would make early encounters more bearable. 

[Not So Clever Hound]

46 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

Any idea if Concelhaut's Draining Missiles is stealable from anyone besides Concelhaut?

I was wondering the same thing, but I don't know. I don't remember seeing this spell cast by anyone else, but as you say some enemies have more spells than what they should have and some that are not listed on the wiki or anywhere. 

52 minutes ago, Shai Hulud said:

the crazed warlock has concelhaut's draining touch in his grimoire, and it's only in a couple others IIRC

Indeed, as far as I know that's the only grimoire accessible early that has it. Dumb question bu have you tried using Corrosive Siphon? e.g. in Deadlight some of those enemies don't have insanely high fortitude and when you can graze/hit a lot of enemies, Siphon heals you by a lot (provided also you don't underpen but few kith enemies have high corrode AR).

[Shai Hulud]

2 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I was wondering the same thing, but I don't know. I don't remember seeing this spell cast by anyone else, but as you say some enemies have more spells than what they should have and some that are not listed on the wiki or anywhere. 

Indeed, as far as I know that's the only grimoire accessible early that has it. Dumb question bu have you tried using Corrosive Siphon? e.g. in Deadlight some of those enemies don't have insanely high fortitude and when you can graze/hit a lot of enemies, Siphon heals you by a lot (provided also you don't underpen but few kith enemies have high corrode AR).

Yeah most enemies have 2 spells per level but a few have 3 or even 4, like the spellblade has 3 I think and eamund the fox might have 4. Pretty sure I stole 10 spells from him from 1 to 3, so probably 4 per level unless he just has more of a certain level for some reason. 

I don't have a grimoire with corrosive siphon yet. It is a pretty rare spell. I know the warlock on tangaloa island has it, which is one reason I'm heading there when I finish deadlight, even though it is a bit out of the way. Other reason is his grimoire has draining touch. And hopefully I can steal some stuff from the zealot. They are both easy to lure one on one. The priest of skaen is a bit harder, but he could prove easier than the celebrant in secret dock.

I did successfully isolate the spellblade in secret dock, though. It is quite tedious but you can lure him and three of his cohorts to one spot using a trap, then lure them to another spot, spellblade arrives last, then you time the third trap correctly and you lure just him. One on one he is still kind of a pain given I'm trying to steal spells without killing myself with blood sacrifice, but with a lot of practice I managed to steal concelhaut's parasitic quarterstaff, infuse with vital essence, fetid caress, minoletta's minor missiles, and mirror image. Only big one I was hoping for that I missed was spirit shield, but that is a pretty common spell. Don't really care about his fireball or tattered veils or concussive missiles. Parasitic quarterstaff, mirror image, and infuse are fairly hard to find early. In this kind of fight you eventually run out of healing potions and I don't have significant passive healing at this point (just the blood mage passive), so I can't steal every spell he has like I normally would, so 5 is pretty good, though I think I'd only do this well maybe one time in three. Also used up both my withdraw scrolls. I'm hoping the zealot at tangaloa island has withdraw, otherwise I'll murder a dawnstar for it I guess. 

At the moment I'm trying to figure out how to lure out the celebrant, who unfortunately is way in the back of the docks. Spellblade was way to the left but possible to lure out. Don't think I can lure out the celebrant, will likely have to kill everyone else. Barrels can do that easily but they get the celebrant a lot (and vela). Gotta reposition them with traps and sparkcrackers. Very tedious but I think it is doable, just gotta get the timing down.