Is there any place in the game where noise mechanics matter ?

[Avaritica]

I entered the forgotten catacomb today and was disappointed to find out that when you fight the hallway enemies, the center throne room enemies also got pulled together because of noise.

In my opinion, the throne room itself is an interesting designed encounter. The deathguard fanatic sit on the throne like a king protected by guards. There is a sigil and traps in front to complicate things if you decide to charge into the room. Alternatively, if you choose to fight in front of the room to be outside of Sigil radius, the boss can punish you from afar with bow, the patrol from other side of the hallway can join the fight and the dragul will rise from the sand pile behind the room to ambush you, potentially sandwich your party. Well, none of it matter because a hand mortar shot from Serafen will pull all enemies inside the room to the hallway, plus weaken them with their own trap in the process.

So, I am tempted to mod the noise mechanics out but I am still in my first proper playthrough so I don't know the game well enough, thus afraid that there might be an encounter/dungeon designed with noise mechanics in mind and I might break it.

I do plan to keep sparkcracker and trap noise so aside from these 2, is there any place in the game where noise mechanics play a role(for example, encounter/dungeon designed with keeping quiet in mind) ?

Edited November 23, 2021 by Avaritica

[Boeroer]

You can use noise very effectively to lure enemies to spots. 

For example you can use any noisy spell that is usable outside combat (usually all offensive AoE spells that can target the ground) to lure enemies to the spot you cast it to. Explosives also work for this (obviously).

It can help with sneaking past enemies or just to get enemies to a spot where it's easier to fight them. 

You can also use it to split and pull single enemies.

When used properly it can make encounters a lot easier. 

It's especially fun for characters or parties that use a sneaky approach. 

Sparkcrackers are special: usually only enemies (red circles) can get lured. Sparkcrackers also work on neutral NPCs. 

In case of the Forgotten Catacombs: I seldomly have a problem with the Deathguard leaving the room prematurely. I lure the patrolling enemies to the entrance which prevents the whole dungeon from following. And then I can usually start the final fight right in front of the door (out of reach of the sigil). 

If you are far enough away and use a silent weapon (e.g. a bow) you can actually destroy the sigil without aggroing the enemies in the room (depends on how near they are to your char). 

[Avaritica]

Good points. Look like noise is incorporated into the game better than I thought. Have to reconsider my view.

I just don't want case like Forgotten Catacomb again. I felt like I cheesed and missed out on the experience because that deathguard is clearly meant to fight inside(or at least infront) the room. In fact, I didn't even realize that deathguard has a sitting animation as default or that draguls can spawn from the sand(?) pile till I used console to clear the fog and test. 

In your memories, are there more dungeons like that where enemies can leave their intended encounter position accidentally ?

Edited November 23, 2021 by Avaritica

[Not So Clever Hound]

A couple minor comments:

Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights work the same as Sparcrackers and is great for e.g. an Assassin / Blood Mage or Trickster to lure/group enemies and do nasty things to them from Stealth. Delayed Fireball is also interesting in that regard.

Not to be picky  but the Ancient Liche Battlemage is different from a Deathgard. They are separate entries in the bestiary with different stats, abilities, immunities etc.

27 minutes ago, Avaritica said:

In your memories, are there more dungeons like that where enemies can leave their intended encounter position accidentally ?

I don't recall every dungeon but I don't think so, this encounter is quite specific. Maybe Bipara and the Witches at Outcast Respite can be a bit the same.

[Boeroer]

39 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Not to be picky  but the Ancient Liche Battlemage is different from a Deathgard. They are separate entries in the bestiary with different stats, abilities, immunities etc.

I think you confused the Ancient Deathguard in the Forgotten Catacombs (the one who drops the Reckless Brigandine) with the Lich + Corpse Eaters in some other (flooded) cavern. For example there are no guls that emerge from sand in the flooded caverns.

39 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights work the same as Sparcrackers and is great for e.g. an Assassin / Blood Mage or Trickster to lure/group enemies and do nasty things to them from Stealth. Delayed Fireball is also interesting in that regard.

It does not (entirely) because you can't use Dazzling Lights to lure away non-hostile NPCs - for example to sneak to a chest. Several encounters (e.g. Concelhaut) start as non-hostile and a conversation leads to a fight. If you want to fight anyway and use some luring to get an advantage Dazzling Lights won't work. Explosives other than Sparkcrackers also won't. Only Sparkcrackers (and the ability of Rokowa's Fingers with the identical name) will have the desired effect. 

Besides that every noisy AoE spell that can be cast out of combat and targeted on the ground can work like Dazzling Lights. 

Dazzling Lights has the VFX of Sparkcrackers (not the sound fx iirc) and also not too big AoE - so that's why I prefer it as luring spell, too.

Iirc most dungeouns aren't as small and "condensed" as the Forgotten Catacombs so there's less problems with enemies all swarming to one place. But it happens occasionally. Especially if there are many enemies (and especially some guarding/patrolling ones) they will alert other nearby enemies. Some even have means of alerting the whole dungeoun that you are there (with blowing horns or just yelling). But the whole dungeon won't rush you - but just turn hostile (if not already).

Edited November 23, 2021 by Boeroer

[Not So Clever Hound]

3 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I think you confused the Ancient Deathguard in the Forgotten Catacombs (the one who drops the Reckless Brigandine) with the Lich + Corpse Eaters in some other (flooded) dungeon. 

Ah my bad! Yes I was referring to the Flooded Cave encounter in the Ofecchia Channel. But then that's relevant because it is another encounter with a particular layout that can behave very differently depending on how you start it.

7 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

It does not (entirely) because you can't use Dazzling Lights to lure away non-hostile NPCs - for example to sneak to a chest.

Argh you're right - for some reason I keep convincing myself of the opposite and rediscovering in-game that indeed Sparcrackers behave differently. I don't know where this unconscious bias is coming from .

[Avaritica]

10 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Iirc most dungeouns aren't as small and "condensed" as the Forgotten Catacombs so there's less problems with enemies all swarming to one place. But it happens occasionally. Especially if there are many enemies (and especially some guarding/patrolling ones) they will alert other nearby enemies. Some even have means of alerting the whole dungeoun that you are there (with blowing horns or just yelling). But the whole dungeon won't rush you - but just turn hostile (if not already).

Nice to know. To be clear, I am fine with enemy swarming and noise pulling, as long as they don't feel like abusing game mechanics.(I consider forgotten catacomb to be such case as deathguard leaving his arena makes sigil placement, dragul ambush and traps all meaningless). 

But yeah, you guys talked me out of removing noise. Seem like it has its uses.

[Avaritica]

16 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Ah my bad! Yes I was referring to the Flooded Cave encounter in the Ofecchia Channel. But then that's relevant because it is another encounter with a particular layout that can behave very differently depending on how you start it.

Ok, this got my interest. Any advice in advance so that I don't pull "boss" away from its arena again(in case that can happen) ?

Edited November 23, 2021 by Avaritica

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, Avaritica said:

Ok, this got my interest. Any advice in advance so that I don't pull "boss" away from its arena again(in case that can happen) ?

I think with this one it's simpler. To get the full challenge/experience, you can simply advance openly in the main cavern to get the full "intended" opposition vs. trying to stealth around and take out the patrolling enemies covertly.

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, Avaritica said:

Ok, this got my interest. Any advice in advance so that I don't pull "boss" away from its arena again(in case that can happen) ?

The area is small but more open - and there are more ranged enemies (casters etc.) that won't run towards you (but still attack you). You can pull the melee enemies away from the sigils (there are some, too) but it won't feel cheesy. If you start combat from the entrance of the cave it's just the way it goes. The sigils are in the back and mainly there to make it harder to sneak up on the enemies. It's normal that all enemies in that cave join combat once you trigger it. It's just like one big cave - so no surprise they all come. The ranged ones usually stay in place if they can reach you while the melee ones totally swarm you with leaps and disrupt your whole tactics by landing in the midst of your party etc. It will most likely be a mess.  

Beware - that Lich is a tough nut.  

[Not So Clever Hound]

28 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Beware - that Lich is a tough nut.  

Yeah, between its innate abilities and the spells in the Brawler's Grimoire, it can come up with painful combos (no wonder they're the same go-to combos for many Battlemage builds out there!) while being quite durable, plus its minions can be a pain.

Well after all, it's called an "Ancient Lich Battlemage" not a "Juvenile Lesser Wizard Slayer Xaurip"  so I suppose it should offer a reasonable challenge!

edit: one of few fights where Arcane Dampener can actually be useful if you can land vs. its high Will.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[thelee]

it's worth highlighting that at some point in one of the patches, enemies got more easily pulled by noise. i think it came around with the arrival of the "berath's challenge" (combat doesn't end until all enemies in an encounter are dead). i don't know if it was an unintentional side effect or a deliberate choice to make it harder to pull enemies away from each other. so it is definitely easier to accidentally pull e.g. the deathguard than it was before.

 

as for noise, i think noise is one of those things that are very subtle but can yield extremely emergent gameplay; i think it's like 95% of the way to being a really great game mechanic. this is me rehearsing a particularly hard stealth section in my ultimate run (because fighting the enemies would've wasted too much time and been very dangerous), using things that make noise in different ways to lure enemies around:

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by thelee

[NotDumbEnough]

For me it's usually only a factor with chanters. Pretty much all chanter invocations are extremely loud so they tend to draw in enemies from adjacent rooms.

Ironically Thunderous Report on Kitchen Stove is quiet.

[Haplok]

When playing my Spellblade, I had to be careful with Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar, since its extremely loud and would always break Stealth. Still a great spell, though.

[Avaritica]

20 hours ago, thelee said:

Wow ~ this is awesome.