Feigned Roleplaying

[Soleyu]

Just thought to put my two cents:

 

There is something you are all forgetting, the more complicated (or developed) the story, the less choices you can make, for Fallout, as great a game as it was, it had virtually no story, you were just a guy trying to get the water chip, as opposed to Kotor, in which you are Revan, in a path of self discovery. The main difference is in the scope of the story (more importantly characters), sure in morrowind and fallout you could go on quests that had their own storyline and all, but those really didnt had squat to do with you. And also sidekicks tend to be not very deep in traditional CRPGS.

 

There is NO open rpg, even in pen and paper rpgs there are limitations in what you can choose to do, as the game master can force you to do thngs in a campaing in order to advance the game. If a game were truly open, you could have just stayed in a cantina getting drunk with Ithorian beer, and told the galaxy to go to hell (the Twileks are more interesting )

 

Now onto specific things, from what I could gather the arguments about choices was that it dint affect the gameworld much, well it did, its just that you couldnt see an inmediate effect of them, I mean what did you expect, everything takes time, not because you kill the leader of the veks or the vulkars everything is going to change, it still takes time as there would be survivors and what not. (And besides there is absolutely nothing you can do, Taris gets destroyed that is out of your control, the only feasible thing would have been crashing the hawk in the leviathan, but then is game over), the same goes fo the wookies and most other things.

 

I agree that people reacted quite simaraly if you were a DS or a LS, i mean they should have feared you or something, but remember that we are going to different planets.

 

What I didnt like was the ending, i mean it was good and all but I expected more, it would have been better if besides beign a hero (yeah Pure LS) you could see the aftermath, like how Revan and Bastila continue with their romance, seeing how each of the crew part to go on with their lives (kinda like Chrono Trigger, for those console Rpgers).

 

Well to end my two (more like five) cents, FF and Console rpgs ARE RPGS, the just a are a different bred, more story driven ones, soy what you want but there is MORE story in console rpgs than there is in "traditional" Rpgs. Its not necessary for you to create a character to role play it, I mean you are ROLE PLAYING, you take on another role, you dont make so much choices but you are still taking its role (ever hear of immersion and emotional attachment, KOTOR excelled in this.)

 

Well that is all I have to say for now, see ya later.

[alanschu]

Thanks CastleBravo.

 

I suppose the thing about Fallout is that you can travel anywhere at anytime. But this aside, even the game tends to play itself out in a somewhat linear fashion, unless you already know the plot and simply skip entire parts of the game.

 

For example, Fallout 1 you start at the vault, go to Shady Sands, to Vault 15, back to Shady Sands, to the raiders (although the raiders area isn't very deep), to Junktown, to the Hub. From here it's a bit more varied, but it does nudge you towards Boneyard, where you have the options then to find the Brotherhood, Cathedral, Glow, and other stuff. But thinking about it....is this really that much different than say the 4 planet area of KOTOR or other similar game? I'm wondering if my love of Fallout is biasing my judgement to be in favour of it...when maybe it isn't actually as different as it may seem.

 

The only real straightforward differences I can see are the move anywhere and kill anything. A problem with the move anywhere though is that I think it takes away from the "roleplaying," as I cannot fathom what the motivation would be to just start randomly walking the land. I dunno.

 

 

I'm kinda playing devil's advocate here too....hoping to get an interesting debate started

[CastleBravo]

"in star wars universe, the heroes ARE restricted to only these two behaviors so it's not only kotor."

 

I'd disagree. Yes, Star Wars is about good vs. evil. But not everybody is unambiguously good. Lando Calrissian comes to mind here. Heck, Han Solo asking for cerdits and leaving the Rebel Alliance in the lurch at end of Star Wars comes to mind here.

 

In Fallout, you could do a range of not-perfectly-good/altruistic things. You could be just plain greedy and self-absorbed, or you could cheat people, or you could take on evil tasks for people, or you could massacre an entire village (like Annakin does in Attack of the Clones, so you can't say allowing massacre isn't Star Wars-compatable...). You can say Star Wars is black-and-white, but really the whole range of human behavior from mediocre to satanic to angelic is depicted at some point or another.

 

But that is kind of going over old ground... everyone knows that too much of the Dark Side in KOTOR was childish or trivial instead of menacing. Did Darth Vader have to ask for extra credits from Tarkin or help prepubescent children beat up an Ithorian to keep his Dark Side points up where they belonged?

 

Ahem.

 

"For example, Fallout 1 you start at the vault, go to Shady Sands, to Vault 15, back to Shady Sands, to the raiders (although the raiders area isn't very deep), to Junktown, to the Hub. From here it's a bit more varied, but it does nudge you towards Boneyard, where you have the options then to find the Brotherhood, Cathedral, Glow, and other stuff. But thinking about it....is this really that much different than say the 4 planet area of KOTOR or other similar game? I'm wondering if my love of Fallout is biasing my judgement to be in favour of it...when maybe it isn't actually as different as it may seem."

 

I just played the game, and followed a rather different trajectory than you did. In fact, I almost didn't save the vault by getting the water chip because I wound up taking what seemed like a logical path, but didn't lead me to the Boneyard until very late. As a result, all the ghouls had already been massacred by the super-mutants, so the whole storyline of helping either of the ghoul factions didn't play out at all...

 

I don't think there is anything in KOTOR like that. Spending more or less time in, say, Kashyyk, didn't really influence what happened on Manaan. There is some connection in what you do in one place and what you do in another, but it doesn't FEEL very profound.

 

Yes, all computer games are linear to some extent, simply because they have built-in limitations and boundaries, or else are vast but almost completely random. And yes, if you want to force the player into 1 story path that branches into 2 at some point, you have to impose more limitations to force them into that story path. But I don't know if that is a good strategy in the first place, at least not so blantantly as is done in KOTOR.

 

Probably the most egregious example is when you meet the Jedi Council. You can look like Satan, and proto-Yoda will still force you to save the galaxy from the Sith. Huh?

 

The point is, the key is that the ILLUSION of freedom and open-endedness is important. The ability to really do this is limited. For instance, Fallout was very wide-open with lots of interconnected consequences and alternate possibilities, but the game world was quite small. Fallout 2 was even bigger, but everthing felt almost too spread out and aimless as a result. The plot of both games was very simple, there was no story but what you made... which isn't a bad thing, just another approach.

 

It would add another level of complexity from the developer point of view, but I think the ILLUSION of freedom and open-endedness could be much improved from that of KOTOR without taking it away from its Star Wars basis.

[Soleyu]

CastleBravo, I agree wih most of what you said, the illusion of freedom is important, and I also realize that compared to Fallout, Kotor seems way too linear, but you also have to understand that Kotor is more of a "console" rpg (I dont particulary like that way of categorazing it, but it will have to do for now). I have played moistly console rpgs so I dont really have a problem with the linear feel, because I am more in favor of a complicated and well developed story, and characters, which console rpgs tend to do more. As long as I enjoy the situations and feel rewarded I couldnt care less for what I cant do, because I am enjoying what I am doing, (and usually I dont even realize I dont have freedom to choose because I am to sucked up in the game)

 

I feel its unfair to try to compare Kotor with Fallout or Morrowind, heck even the wizardry series, as they tackle the genre in many different ways, linearity is not a bad thing as many put it to be. For me at least, I usually get the feeling in traditional pc rpgs, that my char is not that grand as opposed to console rpgs. Of course this is not always the case. Usually a linear path makes for some very cinematic and out of this world situations, which I like.

 

Probably the most egregious example is when you meet the Jedi Council. You can look like Satan, and proto-Yoda will still force you to save the galaxy from the Sith. Huh?

 

Well that although it seems really ilogical is not too much, as they needed you, and they already knew that you could turn to the darkside and all, they knew you were Revan.

 

The point is that if you look too closely you will always see faults, in any game, especially if you compare it to another game (of course if you are biased you will never see its faults and will rationalize everything). Each game you play you have to look at it with no previous preconceptions, or else you will miss the point and not enjoy it because you are too tided up with the "faults". I mean just enjoy the goddamn game stop whining!!! You sound like Carth!!

[GhostofAnakin]

There is something you are all forgetting, the more complicated (or developed) the story, the less choices you can make, for Fallout, as great a game as it was, it had virtually no story, you were just a guy trying to get the water chip, as opposed to Kotor, in which you are Revan, in a path of self discovery. The main difference is in the scope of the story (more importantly characters), sure in morrowind and fallout  you could go on quests that had their own storyline and all, but those really didnt had squat to do with you. And also sidekicks tend to be not very deep in traditional CRPGS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with this 100%

 

I think the thing is KOTOR chose to go the "storyline" route, and I suppose a lot of its freedom suffered because of it. But at the same time, I personally "cared" more for the KOTOR story and its characters than I did for the Fallout 2 characters and story.

[CastleBravo]

I agree with this 100%

 

I think the thing is KOTOR chose to go the "storyline" route, and I suppose a lot of its freedom suffered because of it.  But at the same time, I personally "cared" more for the KOTOR story and its characters than I did for the Fallout 2 characters and story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is OK, but for that to work the story has to be really good. I don't think the KOTOR story was *that* good that it was worth the sacrifice in freedom. It was a cross between Star Wars (Star Forge in place of Death Star, Sith lord on artifical respiration, Milleinum Falcon look alike...) and NWN (snotty-accented good girl who goes bad sells you out then maybe goes good again is central to plot and on box cover, ancient evil powerful fish instead of ancient evil powerful lizards used to rule everything...). It wasn't bad, but it wasn't so great that it seemed worth making the game run on rails more.

 

As an aside, an advantage of having a game more open-ended is that you the player can figure out what is going on in terms of unraveling a mystery, instead of having it force-fed to you.

[Aegeri]

KotoRs story reminded me too much of Baldurs Gate and other, SURPRISE, YOU ARE SOME REINCARNATED x, stories.

 

It was well done however, if cliched and predictable.

As an aside, an advantage of having a game more open-ended is that you the player can figure out what is going on in terms of unraveling a mystery, instead of having it force-fed to you.

 

To an extent, but you lose a lot of detail in this area with the story and many players will not be able to get all of it and the like. Then again, it rewards replaying, where KotoR has zero replay value beyond a simple Light side, thug side choice.

[alanschu]

I will concede that Fallout does have the time issue...which is missing from virtually every RPG aside from it. I like it, because you had to remember you did have some sort of purpose.

 

 

What was your progress through the game? I cannot imagine a different one just based on the way towns are made available through dialogue. At the same time, I am probably biased because I probably used similar ways each time I played through the game to get the towns.

 

 

 

As for the slaughter, I remember Bioware/Lucasarts stating they didn't want mass massacres, because it does exist in a specific timeline, and Tatooine does not get wiped out, nor do the Wookies get eliminated.

 

Furthermore, because travel is limited based on a lot of the information you receive in dialogue, there was probably concerns of the massacres breaking the game and making it unbeatable.

 

 

I also never particularly liked the massacre approach, because I do not think the AI reacts to it appropriately. I do not think there is any way someone could annihilate the boneyard as just one (or two with an NPC) person. Eventually you should get overwhelmed. But the AI is not up to the task.

[CastleBravo]

What was your progress through the game?  I cannot imagine a different one just based on the way towns are made available through dialogue.  At the same time, I am probably biased because I probably used similar ways each time I played through the game to get the towns.

 

You get an idea of where places other than Junktown are very early. And if you ask the people the right questions, you can learn the general or specific location of alot of places very early. With that information, the order you do things can be very different.

[Doublehex]

I for one whould love the power of choice in future rpgs. I whould of loved to have killed Malak on the Levithan, or stop the duestruction of that planet. I love having choices in games. It might be too late now dor KOTOR 2, but maybe they'll implement it in KOTOR 3, or the rumored Knights of the New Republic.

[Nur Ab Sal]

At last another one who sees the light and wields real wisdom... :D

 

I think they should release official mod that will fix all linear-related bugs.

 

I hate leviathan bug too, but there are also people like Shin Ichiro who love simple and linear games and feel lost when game is too complicated and thus too intelligent.

[ShinIchiro]

At last another one who sees the light and wields real wisdom... :D

 

I think they should release official mod that will fix all linear-related bugs.

 

I hate leviathan bug too, but there are also people like Shin Ichiro who love simple and linear games and feel lost when game is too complicated and thus too intelligent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whoa...maybe I'm tired, but someone has managed to state a non-existant opinion of mine...

 

I said my experiences have been based on the linear game so far. Therefore I can use many console RPGs as basis for comparison and the like. I was simply contradicting the statement that KOTOR has no real choice, not saying I can't stand open non-linear RPGs...

 

I have to admit I didn't like BG that much though... Though I did feel lost because I tried playing it as my first CRPG ever and had little clue what was going on...

 

 

 

 

BTW, I'm a GM. I think I can understand basic stuff... And I can't quite tell if you're insulting my inteligence or not, as complexity is not neccessarily associated

quality and intelligence.

 

 

 

P.S. ShinIchiro is all one word.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Whoa no offense I just had to give some example and decided that it will be you.

[Judge Hades]

When it comes to linear and non-linear gameplay there must be a viel shadow that hides them. KotOR was a pretty linear game, but its cinematics and planetary order choice chnges some aspects of the game to give it an illusion of non-linear gameplay. Baldur's Gate was also pretty linear, but the fact it had side areas to explore for a while gave it that illusion as well. I have only came across one truly non-linear game and that was Morrowind, which has the illusion of linear gameplay if you only follow the main quest step by step.

 

Anyway, that is all I have to say on this.

[alanschu]

I suppose you are right CastleBravo. I guess the thing I was thinking was that it didn't really make much sense to me to run past Junktown (or any other town) to get to the town just after it (Hub). As a result, I almost always progressed through the game in the same way.

 

 

And Nur Ab Sal......why do you hate the Leviathan so much? Is it that unreasonable to think that Malak has tracked you down? After all, you are flying around in the Ebon Hawk, and by this time have even killed Darth Bandon I believe.

 

There's one thing about restricted linearity, but this linearity makes perfect sense within the confines of the story. To have it be random would, quite frankly, be silly.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Silly to silly minds. In pen&paper RPG such situation would be random. And I can't understand how I can loose with Malak if Revan is stronger and more powerful? Malak didn't even scratch me and yet devs forced his victory. This is cheating.

 

This is clear fault of those who were responsible for the script. I would change the storyline into something else, more complicated than just starmap run filled with

subquests.

 

I'm not saying that video games can have randomized storyline comparable to

classic paper RPG but KOTOR could be a little more complicated and many things could be added. I just feel that something is missing in the storyline.

 

Besides Leviathan is really painfully linear. Many outcomes could be set instead of one.

[ShinIchiro]

Silly to silly minds. In pen&paper RPG such situation would be random. And I can't understand how I can loose with Malak if Revan is stronger and more powerful? Malak didn't even scratch me and yet devs forced his victory. This is cheating.

 

This is clear fault of those who were responsible for the script. I would change the storyline into something else, more complicated than just starmap run filled with

subquests.

 

I'm not saying that video games can have randomized storyline comparable to

classic paper RPG but KOTOR could be a little more complicated and many things could be added. I just feel that something is missing in the storyline.

 

Besides Leviathan is really painfully linear. Many outcomes could be set instead of one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow Sal and I agree...what doom can this spell...

I also hated how Malak just annoyingly beat you when you probably were strong enough to beat him on the forge by now. If I were GM there, I would have either put it into narrative mode (sorta like a pnp cutscene) so it would have been more fair, rigged the situation against the PCs more (so they would have had an illusion of choice but no matter what the same thing would have happened, which at least would make sense from a stat perspective view), or just let them get away with killing Malak then and there and hope i can make it work.

 

That Leviathan is linear isn't a problem. That it's irrational and doesn't follow the game rules is a pain in the arse. They could have at least worked in some ambush by Malak's followers who stun you or Bastila stays back against them... Even easier would be to put a cutscene there.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Exactly! A cutscene would just be fine! In Jedi Academy during your first encounter with Tavion there is no fight, there is a cutscene in which Tavion stun you and Katarn. Devs from Raven Software knew very well that there was no sense to put a real fight into this part of JA cause Kyle and Jaden would quickly dispatch Tavion. And this seems more reasonable than manipulated Malak duel. This is another example of how some things work better in JA than in KOTOR (just look at ghost of Marka Ragnos he really looks ANCIENT while bioware-made Ajunta Pall who lived 15000 years before Bastila looks painfully modern)

[ShinIchiro]

Exactly! A cutscene would just be fine! In Jedi Academy during your first encounter with Tavion there is no fight, there is a cutscene in which Tavion stun you and Katarn. Devs from Raven Software knew very well that there was no sense to put a real fight into this part of JA cause Kyle and Jaden would quickly dispatch Tavion. And this seems more reasonable than manipulated Malak duel. This is another example of how some things work better in JA than in KOTOR (just look at ghost of Marka Ragnos he really looks ANCIENT while bioware-made Ajunta Pall who lived 15000 years before Bastila looks painfully modern)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While I agree with you, I have to concede the makers of JA had an easier job as it's a short action/adventure while KOTOR was an RPG with many more elements to consider.

 

 

I wasn't that bothered by Ajunta Pall, as I considered the sith hadn't changed much...but in hindsight I see the problem.

 

I remember another very good cutscene example...FFVIII fight with edea (1st). Both console rpgs and CRPGs have handled this piont better. For those of you who don't know, the edea fight had her and Squall (main character) and the other big characters fighting. When you finally hurt her enough, it triggers a cutscene where she says how pathetic you are and in some awesome animation sends a spear of ice right through you, making you go out cold (no pun intended) and almost die.

 

 

 

I think a big thing that could have fixed the situation and would have been overall good would have been the lack of a health bar in KOTOR. I don't always tell my players the health of their opponents. If one didn't know how much health Malak had, he could have seemed like you were just doing insignificant attacks and you weren't hurting him much. However, we know that we were hurting him alot because of that health bar. Even during minor fights, it made the game much easier knowing who to attack and when.

 

I'd reccomend that one could see the health bar while using that force power (was it force sight?) where you see alignment. This would be something that the devs could implement relatively easily I think.

[Nur Ab Sal]

While I agree with you, I have to concede the makers of JA had an easier job as it's a short action/adventure while KOTOR was an RPG with many more elements to consider.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True but making KOTOR looking more ancient isn't a big problem: you just have to inspire your concept art by TOTJ comics, ancient empires like Mesopotamy or Mayans etc instead of copying yoda and tie fighters and movies in general. Till KOTOR star wars ancient era had its own climate similar and yet different to the movies, now we have just another clone of Lucas Trilogy. If Gossett and Carrrasco made such superb work in showing really ancient climate and later JA devs showed Korriban in an excellent way (Korriban level in JA is as big as Korriban in KOTOR by the way) - it is the same as in the comics and books. All those marvelous tombs and halls. I was stunned by the look of Korriban in JA and by the preciseness of all details.

 

I think that bioware devs just didn't get the climate of star wars ancient era. They

had to make a game for Lucasarts and they did it but without any subtleties. I hope that KOTOR 3 will be made by Lucasarts only.

 

 

I'd reccomend that one could see the health bar while using that force power (was it force sight?) where you see alignment.  This would be something that the devs could implement relatively easily I think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm currently making a private list of all KOTOR flaws. I'll add your observation

to it

[ShinIchiro]

While I agree with you, I have to concede the makers of JA had an easier job as it's a short action/adventure while KOTOR was an RPG with many more elements to consider.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True but making KOTOR looking more ancient isn't a big problem: you just have to inspire your concept art by TOTJ comics, ancient empires like Mesopotamy or Mayans etc instead of copying yoda and tie fighters and movies in general. Till KOTOR star wars ancient era had its own climate similar and yet different to the movies, now we have just another clone of Lucas Trilogy. If Gossett and Carrrasco made such superb work in showing really ancient climate and later JA devs showed Korriban in an excellent way (Korriban level in JA is as big as Korriban in KOTOR by the way) - it is the same as in the comics and books. All those marvelous tombs and halls. I was stunned by the look of Korriban in JA and by the preciseness of all details.

 

I think that bioware devs just didn't get the climate of star wars ancient era. They

had to make a game for Lucasarts and they did it but without any subtleties. I hope that KOTOR 3 will be made by Lucasarts only.

 

 

I'd reccomend that one could see the health bar while using that force power (was it force sight?) where you see alignment.  This would be something that the devs could implement relatively easily I think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm currently making a private list of all KOTOR flaws. I'll add your observation

to it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, having LA make it solo might not be the best option. Their track record of making good games isn't...well...good at all... Also, I feel bioware did a good job overall. We care about perfecting the game because they made it good enough for it to matter to us.

 

I'd say that for simpler things LA is fine, but once you get into RPG realm... On the other hand, I'd say LA should definately be more involved in this field at least (how the game looks and feels), as that is not about the game engine or plot.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Let's say that overall storyline and EU subtleties should be handled by Lucasarts.

 

Cutscenes by Industrial Light and Magic cause battles in KOTOR look poor.

 

Rest by Bioware or Obsidian

 

Anyway LA is most responsible for lack of ancient climate in KOTOR. They weren't interested in controlling Bioware and advising them. And it wasn't a problem to hire previous TOTJ team - Gossett and Carrrasco to make concept art and graphic

issues.

 

Kevin Anderson could also be hired. This guy writes ALL the time for hire and

he for sure could find time to work over KOTOR if asked.

 

I can blame Bioware only for mindless copying of Neverwinter Nights. But of course I don't forget how groundbreaking is their graphics, animation, NPC development etc these things make KOTOR great.

[CastleBravo]

I can blame Bioware only for mindless copying of Neverwinter Nights.

 

Yeah, that was pretty blantant, eh? Ancient fish instead of ancient lizards, and the required cover-babe-with-snotty-accent-who-acts-good-then-goes-bad-then-mabye-goes-good-again (CBWSAWAGTGBTMGGA).

 

And the evil-background-without-knowing-it is just BG all over again.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Yeah terrible. I was expecting something similar to Sith War. After KOTOR my opinion about Bioware's creativity was shattered forever.

[alanschu]

Silly to silly minds. In pen&paper RPG such situation would be random. And I can't understand how I can loose with Malak if Revan is stronger and more powerful? Malak didn't even scratch me and yet devs forced his victory. This is cheating.

 

This is clear fault of those who were responsible for the script. I would change the storyline into something else, more complicated than just starmap run filled with

subquests.

 

I'm not saying that video games can have randomized storyline comparable to

classic paper RPG but KOTOR could be a little more complicated and many things could be added. I just feel that something is missing in the storyline.

 

Besides Leviathan is really painfully linear. Many outcomes could be set instead of one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Except that you fail to understand that much much MUCH more resources are required to make a computer game than a pnp experience.

 

The more you branch out the development, the more development time rises exponentially. What you are asking is unreasonable. You CANNOT account for everything in a computer game. There are finite resources in terms of capital, in addition to hardware limitations. But I guess only my "silly mind" can understand that.

 

As for the leviathan being "random" in pnp....think about it. If you created a module to DM and you put in all this time and effort into creating your leviathan adventure, can you honestly say that you would make it "random" for the players playing your mod? If you can say yes to this, then why did you spend all that time designing it? Wouldn't that be an extensive waste of time? Also....why would it be random when by that time they are probably looking for you. You think that the Sith leader would sit by while some punk Jedi goes around disrupting everything the Sith does....especially considering who knows what information was gleaned off of people on Dantooine, which could lead clues to your whereabouts. The more I think about it, the more I think that the Leviathan NOT finding you would have been less plausible

 

 

As for Malak, situations like his are not new. Many villians in many RPGs have toyed with the protagonist at points earlier in the game. Malak was toying with you.....

 

 

As for Shin thinking it would be possible to beat Malak's implementation on the Forge by that time....try it. Do not level up once you reach Malak the first time, and see how well you do against him on the forge. (or if you have the PC version, get to him and find a way to hack your character to that level, since you wouldn't have to do the rest of the game at that level.

 

 

As for the health bar, I just considered that to be the amount of damage that Malak felt would be enough before he was done toying with you. I knew I probably wasn't going to kill him.

 

I find it odd that you guys would have preferred a fight that you actually were not even involved in (i.e. watching a cutscene). I generally prefer NOT to be taken out of character as much as possible.