Int and weapon AOE + advice on a build

[EbonKnight]

Hey guys,

So I've been thinking of starting a new game and was mulling around the idea of a devoted/shattered pillar build (I use the community fix, so shattered pillar is actually pretty damn strong as they don't get gimped on the max wounds). Anyways, I'm looking for a bit of advice on equipment and stuff, but also one mechanic. I was thinking of using blunderbusses (hand cannons) and melee, since devoted can get nice bonuses for both and you can in theory do some sick crit chains with the bb while having fists as a backup for tougher single fights. The real question here is this: does INT affect the AOE of weapons that have AOE such as whispers gs, blunderbusses and that weird poleaxe? The reason is, if not, I think with monk's bonus to Int I'm totally fine going 10 int and just boosting dex and per, otherwise probably a 16/16/16 mix is best. The reason I say 16/16/16 or 18/18 and perhaps 12 in might (otherwise 10) is because I -absolutely hate- dumping abilities. My thinking is, either 10/10/16/16/16/10 or 12/10/18/18/10/10. Also, any other tips for specific equipment to look out for (other than hand cannons ofc) and things not to miss adding to the build?

Cheers

 

[Boeroer]

INT influences all AoE sizes, including the AoE of hand mortars, Whispers of the Endless Paths and Lord Darry's Voulge - all AoEs really.

But did you know that ranged weapons don't generate wounds for a Shattered Pillar? It has to be melee weapon auto-attacks. Cleaving Stance doesn't generate wounds either. Also Cleaving Stance doesn't proc off of ranged weapons only (one weapon - I think it has to be the right hand weapon - has to be melee in order to proc Cleaving Stance). Ranged weapons also don't work with Swift Flurry - so no crit chains. Swift Flurry procs also don't generate wounds (even if you are using a melee weapon).

Mortars are great with Monks  (especially with Stunning Surge), but Shattered Pillar is the one Monk subclass they are not great with I'm afraid. Helwalker or Nalpasca is what I would recommend when going for a Monk/Devoted with hand mortars. Use Dance of Death to gain wounds and use Stunning Surge and Penetrating Strikes. Lightning Strikes instead of Swift Flurry. Turning Wheel doesn't work with ranged weapons - the INT bonus does but not the burning lash - as long as you don't install the Community Patch (see my signature). If you don't use that you can skip Turning Wheel, spare the ability point and just use Duality of Mortal Presence (INT). Flagellant's Path is very good because it works with mortars, has its own recovery and therefore skips the whole reloading cycle of the guns. 

Whispers of the Endless Paths has an AOE which does geerate wouds for the Shattered Pillar. I also has a nice enchantment called "Offensive Parry" - those "Riposte" attacks from Offensive Parry do generate wounds for the Shattered Pillar(!) which makes that weapon a good pick - especially in combination with high deflection and with the armor "Nomad's Bringandine" which has an enchantment that makes you immune to disengagment attacks - meaning all disengagement attacks against you get turned into misses 100%(!). It allows you to break engagment and instantly do an Offensive Parry with the great sword, getting wounds in the process without wasting any time.

  

Edited January 7, 2021 by Boeroer

[EbonKnight]

Oh, wow, thanks for the detailed info! Damn, I totally got most of my build wrong, didn't I Seems like the Whispers sword is just unavoidable for doing some kickass aoe damage, now I'm thinking riposte seems to be the way to go, in which case I guess wizard, paladin and cipher would be great, to get that better deflection rating. Alternatively, rogue trickster/shattered pillar with this setup for even more riposting action, huh? And damn, it does seem like INT is almost unavoidable for any good build in Deadfire, isn't it?

Edited January 7, 2021 by EbonKnight

[Boeroer]

Trickster/Shattered Pillar with Whispers otEP is indeed a pretty fun build. It's not tanky enough for the role of a main tank - but as sturdy secondary frontliner with good damage output it can be pretty exciting to play. Riposte from Rogue even procs a cone attack (doesn't generate wounds though) while the Offfensive Parry is a single target "riposte" that does generate wounds. They stack and that's cool. 

What I forgot: both Riposte AND Offensive Parry will be able to trigger Swift Flurry/Hearbeat Drumming which can lead to crit-chains quite often without you havinng to actually execute a "normal" attack. 

Ciphers do generate focus from Offensive Parry and the cone oE, too. I once played a Soulblade/Shattered Pillar (gaining both wounds and focus at the same time with Offensive Parries) with WotEP and that's viable, too. Especially because Soul Annihilation works with the cone AoE - giving every enemy in the AoE raw damage.  

Yes, INT is quite good for a lot of builds. There are some which don't need it but as soon as there's damage over time, debuffs, CC, buffs, healing over time, AoEs etc. involved you want more INT. One reason why Monks with their potential +10 INT are such good multiclass material. 

[EbonKnight]

It's just hilarious to me how insane monks are. As a single class you can't really beat them (wizard, maybe?) but then everyone who mclasses with them gets huge benefits, too. Yeah, as for tankiness, I was thinking maybe Trickster's Mirror Images can help out a bit, but realistically it's still not the best tank ever, but more than good enough considering the dmg output.

Also, am I correct here in assuming that since a build like this needs pretty much every stat except con (and maybe might) maybe we can also shave some points off of dex since a dedicated riposting build like that will not be doing all that many attacks using the standard mechanics? Does dex help with the speed of executing all those ripostes too, how exactly does that part of the equation work?

Edited January 7, 2021 by EbonKnight

[Boeroer]

DEX does nothing for Ripostes - those attacks will get executed "invisibly" without an animation or recovery.

But DEX is still an impactful stat for all offensive actions so I wouldn't drop it too low. You'll get +5 from Swift Flurry which is good. 
As Trickster you'll get enoug dmg bonuses so you don't really need high MIG. High PER is useful for an MC if you are going with official companions becaus non of them has very high PER - but you need high PER for some hidden secrets etc. CON doesn't need to be high. INT shouldn't be too low (but since you get some with Turning Wheel you can get away with good but not maxed INT) and RES should be high. It's indeed a bit tricky because you can't really dump an attribute. 

Something like
MIG: 10
CON: 08
DEX: 10
PER: 16
INT: 16
RES: 18
could work I think.

[EbonKnight]

Sounds good, yeah. I hate dropping to even 8 tbh, but eh, if anything has to be dropped, con is the most manageable one I think. Thanks for all the help man, the mechanics of these game really are very deep sometimes and not necessarily intuitively explained   This whole discussion also made me realize why a riposte-focused trickster/soulblade could be a monster, too, and ofc a steel garrote mix with rogue would also get you a bunch of (arguably weak, but hey) self healing. So many damn options, this is why I keep going back, I have major build paralysis in this game

Edited January 7, 2021 by EbonKnight

[Boeroer]

Steel Garrote/Trickster is a great combo as well because Offensive Parry dazes on hit which not only unlocks Sneak Attack but also lets Riposte and Offensive Parry heal you. Deflection is top notch, too.

Unbroken/Trickster is also nice. Especially because you can engage a whole lot of enemies and once they cause too much damage cast Repulsive Visage which forces them to break engagement and *wham* Disengagement Attacks with big dmg bonus. Mirrored Images stacks with Refreshing Defense by the way.

Lots of options with Whispers of the Endless Paths... ;

[EbonKnight]

Heck, maybe even a tactician could work with this setup, esp if you also had another persistent distraction guy  (like Eder) in your team? Honestly, Trickster just seems to be downright phenomenal for just about anything, as does WotEP

[Haplok]

12 minutes ago, EbonKnight said:

Heck, maybe even a tactician could work with this setup, esp if you also had another persistent distraction guy  (like Eder) in your team? Honestly, Trickster just seems to be downright phenomenal for just about anything, as does WotEP

Well, Trickster IS pretty great. That is unless you're willing to exploit broken Streetfighter speed and damage, that's even more broken. Or a monk... oh, wait.

WotEP has its uses and gimmicks, where its very nice indeed. But for me it fails as a primary damage weapon. Its base damage is just too low. So I wouldn't exactly call it phenomenal. Just very interesting.

[Boeroer]

Well a lot of people miss that it not only has an AoE attack (which warrants the lower base dmg) but also has a 15% crushing lash (multiplicative dmg bonus) AND +1 PEN which can make a huge difference even against single targets. Even without Offensive Parry it can be insteresting because its recovery bonus enchantment is good as well. It's not the best 1:1 weapon of course - but it's not too bad at that either. Anyway: as soon as the mob is thinned out and you want to deal better single target damage you can easily switch to another weapon.

Streetfighter with blunderbusses is lame imo (just too much power gained too easily which takes away all the fun) - but there are some weird concepts with Streetfighters that are really fun for me.
For example a shock-themed Chanter/Streetfighter with Deltro's Cage Helm and Sasha's Singing Scimitar who summons two Whisps that shoot disorienting shock bolts at him which causes him to speed up like crazy and give him a lash (that stacks with Mith Fyr and Scimitar lashes). It's like two floating essence batteries that "load" you up with energy and it's not only powerful but also thematically very cool.   Also works very well as ranged build with reloading weapons like Red Hand if you use Sure Handed Ila - or  a Hunting Bow with modal (Essence Interrupter) which leads to unbelievable attack speed.

But yes: in general Trickster is the coolest rogue subclass, I agree. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Boeroer

[Haplok]

It is the most universal rogue subclass. A no-brainer for nearly all builds. But for certain builds not only the already mentioned Streefighter, but also Assassin (particularly for offensive casters) and even Debonaire (maybe with a cipher?) can offer a lot as well.

The vanilla class is the least interesting here, by far.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

Yes, I think there's no reason to pick vanilla Rogue at all. Trickster will always be the better alternative. The little less Sneak Attack dmg is such a minor drawback compared to the great abilities you get. 

Debonaire is great with Wizard if you have a Cipher with Ring Leader or a Chanter with the charming invocation in the party. The Debonaire/Wizard can then get 100% crit conversion on all charmed enemies because a lot of his AoE spells cause friendly fire. That removes most issues with PEN.

Debonaire/Cipher is more limited - but pretty cool for Disintegrate-crits (or Soul Ingnition). And the good thing about Disintegrate/Soul Ignition is that they don't even flip the charmed enemy back to hostile. 

[EbonKnight]

Deboinaire is such an anticlimactic hero character though isn't he? I may be overthinking these things but I hate dumping stats especially the likes of resolve as you'd think a character like that would realistically just lie down and die faced with all his trails, heh. Con is thematical in Deadfire (what with missing your soul and all) so that works tbh. But yeah, Debonaire..great guy and all but COWARDICE? Can't freaking even concentrate properly unless someone else is taking the heat? Yeah reeeeeeeeeeeeeal hero material

What annoys me with Assassin is that you'll never be able to do better than ranged alpha striking, which truly is a lame way to play the game. I guess maybe a single class Assassin that finally unlocks vanishing blows can do well but other builds I've tried had real troubles doing well to stay almost perma-invis in combat, and often got womped while trying to dance around in melee. I mean, it's doable but on PoTD for maximum efficiency you have to go all out dumping stuff like Con and Res which is just .. well.. see above

[dgray62]

On 1/8/2021 at 3:57 AM, Haplok said:

WotEP has its uses and gimmicks, where its very nice indeed. But for me it fails as a primary damage weapon. Its base damage is just too low. So I wouldn't exactly call it phenomenal. Just very interesting.

There's a mod that un-gimps WotEP and boosts its base damage. Might be worth using if you want to play a WotEP oriented build and are into modding.