How to make the most effective pure Paladin?

[Livegood118]

Well, it's v5.0 of the game and it's probably not going to be getting any more patches. With all of the knowledge min-maxers now have, I'd like to pose a challenge for character builders:

What's the most effective single class Paladin character you can build?

The conventional wisdom is that Paladins should generally be multi-classed. I'd like to read an outline for a single class Paladin build that makes me think: "Damn, I'd definitely pick that over a Herald, or an Arcane Knight".

Feel free to use equipment, party synergies, mass PL stacking, defence stacking, ability quirks etc ... but it shouldn't be game-breakingly cheesy (i.e. Salvation of time shenanigans) and it shouldn't require you to do anything on a regular basis that's annoying or extremely gamey (like making yourself confused, relying on a specific rest buff, that sorta thing).

Who will answer the call?

Edited April 16, 2020 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

The most impactful synergy is if you put a Beckoner into the party and let him summon Ancient Brittle Bones. Paladin's Divine Retribution gives you 2 Zeal if an ally dies. And those skeletons are allies...

Besides that the PL8/9 abilities of Paladins are indeed pretty lame. 

I was just wondering if Providence (auto-revive of the Paladin, costs 3 Zeal) will get partly refunded by Divine Retribution (2 Zeal when ally goes down - are you an ally to you?). One could put on gear that triggers on knockout (Woedica's Crown, Effort, Effigy's Husk etc.) and then stand up again for only 1 Zeal. If you kill somebody in the process you could get back 1 Zeal from Virtuous Triumph. Have to test that...

Edit: nope. You don't get 2 zeal for your own knockout.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Boeroer

[thelee]

On 4/16/2020 at 2:24 PM, Livegood118 said:

I'd like to read an outline for a single class Paladin build that makes me think: "Damn, I'd definitely pick that over a Herald, or an Arcane Knight".

Good luck with that

 

Outside of what Boeroer says, while Healing Chain and/or upgrading Sacred Immolation or Hastening Exhortation is not bad, it's not nearly as good as the extra synergies you can get from multiclassing a paladin. I mostly single-class paladin just to do something different (using pallegina), not because it's particularly powerful.

[Boeroer]

They really dropped the ball with Paladin's PL 8 and 9.

[Elric Galad]

On 4/16/2020 at 11:59 PM, Boeroer said:

The most impactful synergy is if you put a Beckoner into the party and let him summon Ancient Brittle Bones. Paladin's Divine Retribution gives you 2 Zeal if an ally dies. And those skeletons are allies...

I think that if you don't want to commit with a beckoner, any chanter with Many Lives... Phrase would be okay too. Since those skeletons don't scale with level, they should be easy enough to get killed. If you don't trust foes to do the job, a barbarian with Blood Thirst Can do the job without recovery. You may want to combine this with Grave Digger saber to get free Chillfog.

 

How Healing Chain isn't Bad ? For 3 Zeal, all you get is 50- (decrease with jumps, 15% if I remember well) Healing, and the Jumps can even be "stolen" by summons which means extremely Bad synergy with Divine Retribution. 

 

Finally Healing over Time effets scale very well with PL, so Lay on Hand is pretty good with SC Paladin.

[Boeroer]

Many Lives also works, but the Beckoner Skeletons have the advantage that 6 of them can split into 12 additional ones which makes for a instant zeal refill if for example a confused Berserker kills only one of them (because the Chillfogs will kill the rest until the Berserker removes his confusion). So you can get up to 36 zeal with one single Crave Calling strike. If you want to get zeal from Many Lives you have to attack those skeletons all the time and thus your Barbadian is occupied with that instead of doing other things. I think occupying a character just for refilling Zeal is a lot less efficient than doing it quickly. That's why I think Beckoner is the better solution when it comes to SC Paladin+Grave Calling shenanigans.

But I still wouldn't want to build a SC Paladin because of that. The whole stuff is gimmicky and is not much fun in my opinion. And all that for a bit more Zeal. Also multiple Chillfogs tend to slow down the game considerably, even on my rather high-endish PC. 

I tried the whole thing in a playthrough and dropped it pretty quickly. SC Paladin is just not good (overall experience is not good) in my opinion. 

If PL8/9 had an upgrade of Sacred Immolation that would take away the self damage or turned it into even higher burn damage instead of raw: that would be a reason to pick one. Magran's Favor, Sun & Moon, Sacred Immolation, Eternal Devotion, Inspired Beacon: nice.

[Elric Galad]

52 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

They really dropped the ball with Paladin's PL 8 and 9.

They really dropped the ball with Paladin PL 2 to 9 for active abilities. Apart the rez Command which can situationnally save your day, all are meh to bad (overcosted is their main pb).

 

That said Divine Retribution is good enough to justify Single Class. It can even lead to pretty hilarious party build with several SC Paladins involved because Knock Out would result in a net Zeal gain.

[Boeroer]

Inspired Beacon can be nice with some caster multiclasses or with Offensive Parry. So that's not too bad. Bit short maybe. 

But yes, the exhortations are all pretty lame. Abjuration too circumstancial, as is the vessel destroyer Light of Pure Zeal at PL 9 (although the healing is nice but not needed most of times).

Edited April 19, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

27 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I tried the whole thing in a playthrough and dropped it pretty quickly. SC Paladin is just not good (overall experience is not good) in my opinion. 

I could imagine having a whole party under the effect of Nimble through Hastening Exhortation branding all foes or spamming White Flames could be efficient or fun.
 

25 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Inspired Beacon can be nice with some caster multiclasses or with Offensive Parry. So that's not too bad. Bit short maybe. 

I like the idea behind this ability, but it is too short, too small AoE and too long casting time (OR too expensive).

Last time I picked it I seldom used it.

On contrary, all 3 Tier I abilities are excellent and cheap, so...

For I mod, I felt that I had to tweak all Paladin active abilities except these 3 and Rez Command .

Edited April 19, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

I agree that I mostly use it in combination with Offensive Parry (not only does it increase dmg but it also unlocks Deathblows - if Paladin/Rogue - and lowers enemies' ACC). It has indeed long casting time and also longish recovery for such a short effect.

Maybe that should have been addressed in the Community Patch (make it cast faster or give it longer duration). Exhortations as well.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

5 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Maybe that should have been addressed in the Community Patch (make it cast faster or give it longer duration). Exhortations as well.

Well, you did.

Quote

 

Paladin:

• Beacons now have an increased base duration from 8s to 10s

 

Not enough IMHO, but you did 

I think I pretty much know the content of CP as well as the base rule.

TBH it's pretty hard to draw the line between legit modding and ruthless powercreeping <getting back to add weapon/armor scaling to all summons>.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Oops! I didn't even notice.

[thelee]

9 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

How Healing Chain isn't Bad ? For 3 Zeal, all you get is 50- (decrease with jumps, 15% if I remember well) Healing, and the Jumps can even be "stolen" by summons which means extremely Bad synergy with Divine Retribution. 

yeah if you use it with summons it's bad. i wasn't thinking of that.

 

50 instant healing to start, with huge effective area is pretty good. I'm not sure there's anything comparable from any other class, even just for the raw healing number, ignoring the range. Druids and lay on hands can heal more health over time, but if you need the health really fast (and on more than one party member), I don't think there's anything better.

Edited April 19, 2020 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, thelee said:

yeah if you use it with summons it's bad. i wasn't thinking of that.

 

50 instant healing to start, with huge effective area is pretty good. I'm not sure there's anything comparable from any other class, even just for the raw healing number, ignoring the range. Druids and lay on hands can heal more health over time, but if you need the health really fast (and on more than one party member), I don't think there's anything better.

You're pretty much pointing the reason why I dislike this ability that much. OTHER classes don't have anything comparable except Light of Eothas which is a Tier IX Priest spell.

 

BUT Paladins get another Party Heal on Tier IX : Light of Pure Zeal. It's expensive but still more cost effective. 100 Heal base is enormous, and doesn't decrease on secondary targets. 

 

So only jump range could justify Healing Chain, but overall I find it quite redundant and a bit... Uninspired (I mean, in addition to be overcosted). That's why it's one of the few abilities that I completely reworked for my mod.

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Elric Galad