[MECHANICS] The Summoner's Tables

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Anyway: if you can have seperate progression tables, abilities and even separate items than all is fine. No need to alter the base stats.

Well, not so simple for a set creature.

We can have conditional passive that apply only for summons, that's for sure.

Conditional Progression Tables, not sure at all. It would require that the Boolean that test if the creature is summoned can be used from this file. That is not confirmed. Consider that they didn't do it like this for Beckoner. They coded a non-contionnal ability that is conditionally applied.

For Items, I don't know either. But Passive Ability can be used to "add a Mod" on a weapon.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Kaylon]

Another issue with the summons is the fact that not all of them are affected by the Animancer's Cat.

And talking about summoning in general, I don't know how hard it's to implement, but I would like to see the empower bonus or any PL bonus above your current one affecting the level of your summoned creatures/weapons.

[Elric Galad]

6 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Another issue with the summons is the fact that not all of them are affected by the Animancer's Cat.

Can you be more specific about the unaffected summons ? I quickly looked at the code, and my best bet would that it does not affect "non-activel-summoned summons" such as "many lives..." phrase, split skeleton from the skeleton Invocation or the Drake upgrade's second drake.

6 hours ago, Kaylon said:

And talking about summoning in general, I don't know how hard it's to implement, but I would like to see the empower bonus or any PL bonus above your current one affecting the level of your summoned creatures/weapons.

Well, given that summons scale with level and not PL, this one sounds indeed complicated.

[Kaylon]

11 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Can you be more specific about the unaffected summons ? I quickly looked at the code, and my best bet would that it does not affect "non-activel-summoned summons" such as "many lives..." phrase, split skeleton from the skeleton Invocation or the Drake upgrade's second drake.

Well, given that summons scale with level and not PL, this one sounds indeed complicated.

Chanter and monk summons are ok, but druid/priest summons aren't affected if I remember well.

For the summons/weapons scaling with level/PL the model should be Monastic Unarmed Training.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Kaylon

[Elric Galad]

 

Quote

a) whether or not a summon joins your party or your team

Added to the table (with a couple of details, such as Fire Stag's Carnage and Fire Shield)

 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

 

11 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Chanter and monk summons are ok, but druid/priest summons aren't affected if I remember well.

For the summons/weapons scaling with level/PL the model should be Monastic Unarmed Training.

OK, I check the code and I still didn't find anything weird. But this bug wouldn't surprise me.

For the summons themselves, I think it could be complicated because I'm not sure if and how the creature "carry" the PL of the spell.

For summoned weapon, scaling based on PL is feasible but I'm not sure it can follow the rule of Monastic Training. 
Monastic Training seems to be coded as a regular PL scaling, but it seems to use a "phantom PL" only because it is not a "class ability" but an "universal one". It may work like this because it is the only classless scaling ability.
So there's always the option to make summoned weapons scale based on PL, which will be very nice for Conjurers at least, but rather meh for multiclass. 

That's good ideas for sure, but I will probably not try them before I release version 1.0 of my mod.

[Kaylon]

10 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

So there's always the option to make summoned weapons scale based on PL, which will be very nice for Conjurers at least, but rather meh for multiclass. 
 

Firebrand could become a very nice option for many melee classes if, for scrolls, it would be possible to make count the Arcana lvls above yours.

[Boeroer]

It's not understandable why summoned weapons, summons (and animal companions, too) don't scale with Power Level but character level. For example: what good for is the Conjurer subclass if its PL bonus does nothing (besides prolonging duration) for most stuff it conjures?
And why make Transcendent Suffering/Monastic Unarmed Training scale with PL but not the other scaling weapons? 
I'm still puzzled: what's the rationale? I know I keep bringing this up... but I just... can't...

Edited April 14, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

25 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

It's not understandable why summoned weapons, summons (and animal companions, too) don't scale with Power Level but character level. For example: what good for is the Conjurer subclass if its PL bonus does nothing (besides prolonging duration) for most stuff it conjures?
And why make Transcendent Suffering/Monastic Unarmed Training scale with PL but not the other scaling weapons? 
I'm still puzzled: what's the rationale? I know I keep bringing this up... but I just... can't...

The rationale is simple : if a Summoned Weapon doesn't match the level of power of endgame Equipment, it would be useless.
So Summoned Weapons have to scale well for Multi-Class... and not "too well" for Single Class. They feared Summoned weapons to be too good for SC if they have to be good enough for MC. So... errr... they based it on character level so it's "balanced for eveyrone".

This is a bit the same for Summoned Creatures & Pets.

Summoned Creatures, pets, summoned weapon, monk fist and natural Attack from shapeshifters are a recurring balance problem in most games (from DnD to Skyrim) because they don't scale like the Player Character and, more importantly, the foes. Consider the PEN problem of summons : it doesn't scale as your foe AR, and that's the reason why I even started this analysis.
PoE1 pet and druid shifter scaling is another food example.

Using Character Level for this sort of scaling solves most issues that's why I'm reluctant to open this box, even if I totally get the point.
 

That's why Kaylon is suggesting to follow the same rule as Monastic Training : it takes the levels of the character into account (through a virtual PL) BUT also take into account PL modifiers.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

24 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

The rationale is simple : if a Summoned Weapon doesn't match the level of power of endgame Equipment, it would be useless.

Same argument could be made for Transcendent Suffering/Monastic Unarmed Training - but isn't made. Of course summoned weapons wouldn't be useless like fists aren't useless for multiclass characters. You compensate for a lack of weapon scaling with multiclass synergies. Sounds totally balanced. The current approach is what isn't balanced. Giving a Bloodmage/Assassin the same scaling for Cobra Strike as an SC Conjurer is just not right. SC Conjurer could be made a viable weapons user if his weapons scaled with PL. He would gt +3 PL just from being SC + Prestige and +2 from his subclass. If the weapons scaled like Monastic Unarmed Training that wouldn't even mean full two quality tiers. That's not too much compared to stuff like added lashes, damage bonuses, Driving Flight and what else you can combine with multiclassing.
 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Boeroer

[Powerotti]

So SC death godlike conjurer with prestige, potion of ascencion and stone of power could get 18 PL ( 3 race, 9 class, 2 subclass, 2 potion, 1 necklace, 1 talent) with spirit lance or black bow. It transers to +140%dmg, +38acc and +10pen, if equal to transcendent suffering. Citzal enchanted armory would be also decent and summoned breastplate should scale nice with 18 PL.

BUT think about transmuter with scaled draining touch

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Powerotti said:

So SC death godlike conjurer with prestige, potion of ascencion and stone of power could get 18 PL ( 3 race, 9 class, 2 subclass, 2 potion, 1 necklace, 1 talent) with spirit lance or black bow. It transers to +140%dmg, +38acc and +10pen, if equal to transcendent suffering. Citzal enchanted armory would be also decent and summoned breastplate should scale nice with 18 PL.

BUT think about transmuter with scaled draining touch

Do Stone of Power stacks with Potion of Ascension ?

Anyway, Conjurer's familiar provides a stacking +1PL, so there is still a way to get to 18PL.

If the whole build is focused for this objective, I guess it's not that bad if it provides good stats. But this example still shows why it is a bit tricky to balance.

 

5 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Same argument could be made for Transcendent Suffering/Monastic Unarmed Training - but isn't made. Of course summoned weapons wouldn't be useless like fists aren't useless for multiclass characters. You compensate for a lack of weapon scaling with multiclass synergies. Sounds totally balanced. The current approach is what isn't balanced. Giving a Bloodmage/Assassin the same scaling for Cobra Strike as an SC Conjurer is just not right. SC Conjurer could be made a viable weapons user if his weapons scaled with PL. He would gt +3 PL just from being SC + Prestige and +2 from his subclass. If the weapons scaled like Monastic Unarmed Training that wouldn't even mean full two quality tiers. That's not too much compared to stuff like added lashes, damage bonuses, Driving Flight and what else you can combine with multiclassing.
 

Yup and Monastic Unarmed Training is a rather meh talent. Unless want a bashing monk shield or play a Devoted whose weapon focus does not provide crushing damages, I don't see much point in this talent. 

[Boeroer]

Monastic Unarmed Training is decent enough if you stack some Power Levels. See SC Barbrian. But that wasn't the point.

The point was that if Transcendent Suffering and Monastic Unarmed Training can both scale with Power Level and don't create big balancing issues - then I don't think scaling summoned weapons with Power Level will result in balancing issues. I know that wasn't your own argument but rather said from the perspective of the devs - but I still think it's not a convincing one. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

5 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Monastic Unarmed Training is decent enough if you stack some Power Levels. See SC Barbrian. But that wasn't the point.

Then if it is supposed to be similar, it would require any MC characters that want to build around summoned weapons to be more or less forced to stack PL.

5 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

The point was that if Transcendent Suffering and Monastic Unarmed Training can both scale with Power Level and don't create big balancing issues - then I don't think scaling summoned weapons with Power Level will result in balancing issues. I know that wasn't your own argument but rather said from the perspective of the devs - but I still think it's not a convincing one. 

My own opinion is simply that I'm not 100% confident it doesn't create balancing issue... And even if it was the case, it could even be fun enough to justify a bit of Imba.

It's simply that because of that, I don't want to try to make this change by myself for now.
 

[Elric Galad]

Okay, so here what I plan to do with druid (already coded and tested for Greater Blights and Call of the Primordials) :
 

General Principle (also appliable to other classes) :

Scaling may happen at levels 5, 9, 13, 17.
Each scaling add +4 Acc, +15% damages, +1 PEN for weapons (spell-like abilities are unaffected) and +1 AR in addition to +3Acc/All Defenses that every creatures get.
This is identical to already scaling creatures such as Pets or Animated Weapons (or summoned Weapons and Armors).

But since some summons start very strong, they may not get all the scaling levels. There would be 5 categories :
- Some summons will scale at levels 5, 9, 13, 17 (full scaling, for a total of +16 Acc, +60% damages, +4 PEN and +4 AR)
- Some summons will scale at levels     9, 13, 17
- Some summons will scale at levels         13, 17
- Some summons will scale at level                 17 (theoritical for the moment)
- Some summons will not scale at all (for example Ryrmgand Incarnate is strong enough and do not require any scale.

It might be interpreted as if the base stats of the creature already include Fine / Exceptional / Superb / Legendary weapons and armors.
However, the main goal is balancing the various abilities. So low level summons may also get fewer scaling levels.

In addition, I may change other stats of the Summon Spells or Summoned Creatures for various purposes.

Side note : the changes will not affect the Bestiary creature that the summoned is based on.


Ondra's Whip, Watery Double, Lashing Vine : no changes. I think these abilities are balanced as they are (and they all scale at levels 5, 9, 13, 17 ).


Summon Sporelings :
Will scale at levels 13, 17 only.
These summons are already very tanky for their spell Tier, with very good duration. They are subclass-specific so I feel it is legit if they are a bit stronger, but full scaling would probably be too much.


All Blights Summons :
Will scale at levels 5, 9, 13, 17.
I think these spells needed a bit of a buff, so full scaling felt suitable.
In addition, since each Tier of Blight summon basically gives +1PEN, AR and damages (as well as a new ability), their stats would be very similar if Minor Blights scaled more  than normal and greater ones. Higher Tier summons should be stronger than lower Tier counterparts, that's why I gave max scaling to all of them.


Call to the Primordials :
Scaling will depend on the Ooze :
Greater Black Ooze will scale at levels 9, 13, 17.
Adra Ooze will scale at levels                9, 13, 17.
Magma Ooze will scale at levels                13, 17.
Bog Ooze will not scale at all.
(The difference is based on the base level of the creature, but they all end up with 11 PEN)
Call to the Primordials nerfed to summon only 2 Oozes.
This spell already feels too strong so I want to seize the opportunity to make it more in line with other summons.


Fire Stag : 
(already scales at levels 5, 9, 13, 17)
(minor) Change its fire shield so it procs on damages as other fire shields, and not on Hit/Crit.
Set Engagement limit to base 3, so it can be more focused on being a decoy.
Adjust base damages to 13 - 19 with PEN 8 (equivalent of a sword with +2 PEN and fast attack rate), so it feels potent for a summon of this Tier.
Remove the possibility to abuse Barring Death Door for multiple self-destructions.
Possibly adjust the self-destruction effect (maybe no friendly fire, also proc if the creature is killed ?)


Aspect of Galawain :
(already scales at levels 5, 9, 13, 17)
Adjust base damages to 13 - 19 with PEN 8 (equivalent of a sword with +2 PEN and fast attack rate), so it feels potent for a summon of this Tier. Wolf would get higher base damage.
Adjust armor base 5 AR -> base 8 AR, 25% recovery -> 0% recovery.  Bear would get +2 AR. (they would basically get the equivalent of Spiritshift armors)
Add a Prone on Hit effect to its base attack (EDIT : only Interrupt on Hit since the beast has very high attack rate) so it feels like a living Concelhaut Crushing Doom (or Animated Pike and its plentiful Knockdowns). This is meant to be similar to pet's takedowns since the ability is already based on Ranger's pet.


Please tell me what you think of these changes, especially if something feels too powerful. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

What I intend to do for Priests (sorry for the multiple posting but I write this when I have time) :

Spirtual Ally :
Will scale at levels 5, 9, 13, 17 (Mace, Armor & Shields)
Tune down duration to 25s because scaling weapons make him much better at high level and it was already a decent summon. In practice, Spiritual Ally seldom dies in battle so lower duration will makes it last less. It will poke much harder, but it will not change his non-weapon abilities (heal & corrode cone).


Incarnates :
First, I will lower the PL penalty to -2 PL because it makes the ability a bit too committing to use.
I will also lower the duration to 30s since it was affected by PL malus to compensate.

Now for specific Incarnates, they are mostly buffed (bar Rymrgand's), but I think they will not exceed the level of quality expected from a Tier IX Spell, especially considering you don't directly control them and get a PL malus :

- Eothas : Equipment set to Legendary Quality. Note that this is basically the same as Full scaling since Incarnate is a spell you get at level 19, after the last scaling.
Eothas trio is arguably the strongest incarnate, but since SC Eothas priest are also the ones that get the less non-priest bonus spells, I would say this is legit.

- Berath : Equipment set to Legendary Quality too (including Pallid Knight armor which was basic : she had no more armor than the Usher...). Pallid Knight & Usher would be indeed a strong duo.

- Magran : Weapon set to Legendary Quality, armor upgraded to Rathun Lord quality (+2AR).

- Skaen : get 2 scaling bonus (+2 PEN, + 8 Acc, +30% damages with weapons, +2 AR). Skaen felt a tad weak, especially PEN / AR, so I think this will fit.

- Wael : get 4 scaling bonus (+4 PEN, + 16 Acc, +60% damages with weapons, +4 AR). Wael's Incarnate is basically a greater blight with better stats but without greater blight ultimate ability (it is limited to normal blight's ones). I will also give him +10 CON so its health pool is more in line with other Single Incarnate. I will also add +5 DEX, +5 PER : since Wael is only auto-attacking it is good to make it at least good at that !

- Rymrgand : No changes to this monster.

[Noqn]

Awesome, just the right amount of buffs that incarnates needed.

On another note, tfw no Strangler summon

[Elric Galad]

Thank you for believing ! I'm not that confident myself, especially about the 2 multi summons, Berath and Eothas, which were already pretty good. For Magran, Skaen and Wael, I'm about sure it won't break the game.

[Elric Galad]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 11:23 PM, Noqn said:

Awesome, just the right amount of buffs that incarnates needed.

As I said yesterday, I wasn't fully convinced because of 2 issues :

- Inequal summons. Multiple summons just feels better. Just too much.

- Risk of making priest into top tier summon spammers, which they aren't meant to be. The PL malus was the limitating factor for Incarnate, so they could only spam Spiritual Ally without backfire.


So I'm going to address this the following way :


Change -5 PL malus for 30s into stacking -1 PL malus for 300s (instead of -2 PL for 30s) EDIT : mmm 180s will be enough.

This is supposed to make using Incarnate once not too bad, but using it several times in a row (especially thanks to Brilliant) more punishing. I could have made it last the whole battle, but I wanted to leave hope for Megaboss encounters, especially for a High Resolve build. 300s will not stop at the end of the fight, because I wanted to make the stacking malus relevant even if Brilliant is not used (at least for for vibe, the player can still way for the effect to wear off).

Incarnate really felt like a "last resort" ability, not something one should use everytime, and I wanted to keep this feeling.

Note that is also meant to mitigate the inequality between Subclasses' Incarnate.
 

Use Incarnate Tiers to compensate for Subclasses Tiers

There are 3 Priests subclasses Tiers for me (and Thelee's Gamefaqs is more or less aligned with it), leaving Woedica apart from the debate because no Incarnate and Gaun and Rymrgand too because their incarnate are good enough and pre-determined Companions can be a litte stronger :

- Tier A : Wael and Skaen because they bring completely new abilities the class.

- Tier B :  Berath and Magran, cause they bring many abilities, but not as "new" as the other (other damages spells aren't exactly new compare to Invisibility or Defense self-buffs)

- Tier C : Eothas, cause he only brings his symbol and Sunbeam. Eothas still okay for MC cause it saves a lots of ability points for "classic" priest abilities, which is relevant in this case, but is very meh for SC.

Incarnates are currently the following tier :

- Tier A : Eothas (3 almost always better than 1)

- Tier B : Berath (2 almost always better than 1 and worse than 3)

- Tier C : Magran, Wael and Skaen.

So I came to the conclusion that Magran's Incarnate can be buffed to match the power of Berath's pair. With Magran on Tier B, we will have a perfect mirror of Subclass Tiers.

Magran's Incarnate is going to be a Defensive Juggernaut, Impervious to Hostile effect with a level of attack comparable to Skaen (but without Sneak Attack, so Skaen would still be better at pure damage dealing).
I will set its CON to 25 (nearly as much HP as Skaen's), RES to 25 (-45% Hostile effect duration, feel free to add an Inspiration on top of that).
Armor would be changed to 14 AR without weakness apart Cold and its Recovery would be lowered from +67% to +34% (this value comes from a Fighter with Armored Grace wearing a heavy armor. This is suitable for Magran who is an Armored Garce, pardon my French)

Edited April 22, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

(once again, sorry for the multiple post, but I think this one should be the last of the analysis)

So now it's Chanter turn.

One thing to keep in mind with Chanters is that all their summons share the exact same pool of ressources. So if each one has not a clear role, it will be completely useless (meanwhile a Druid may sometimes cast Lesser Blight only because it's his last Spell Tier with a Summon).


Skeletons :
Will scale at levels 9, 13, 17. They start as poor so they have "fine" weapons at level 20.
Scaling will not apply to split skeletons (for some reasons, they benefit from difficulty level scaling, so not applying scaling is the best way to make sure they stay "lesser").
Role : Skeletons are here for their numbers. They're fine at it (and have much combo potential).

Note : Scaling will not apply to "Many Lives..." phrase skeletons (because they don't scale anyway).


Phantom :
Will scale at levels 5, 9, 13, 17.
Phantom upgrade duration : 25s -> 60s.
Role : with such a duration, Phantom will be design as "summon and forget" for those chanters that don't like summons but still want an extra body. He's cheap, he stays for long so I think it's a good niche for him.


Wurms :
Will scale at levels 13, 17.
Upgrade cost : 4 phrases -> 3 phrases (I have already aligned all chanter upgraded invocations with the cost of their original ability ; I want to keep this principle : an upgrade should be a strict upgrade, as for all other abilities / classes)
Role : Wurms are cheap ranged brute force. If you look at the table, they have pretty good attack strength for their cost, especially when upgraded. So I don't want to "overscale" them. I don't want cheaper Ancient Weapons... ! 2 scaling is just enough to bring them to 11 PEN, which is kind of "default PEN" for level 20 weapons.


Wisps :
Will scale at levels 5, 9, 13, 17.
Role : Wisps are utility-based summons and I think they are in a good spot for Interrupting / Distracting. Full scaling won't do much for their lowish attack but will at least bring them to 11 PEN.


Ogres :
Will scale at levels 9, 13, 17.
Role : Tanks with damage dealing potential. With a bit of armor scaling, they will become tougher than Animated Weapons. Oh, and they have this wonderful 3 base Engagements. I want to make sure they don't reach Animated Weapon DPS potential. They have a slow attack rate (due to their recovery), so it's ok. However they will still do okay damages in melee with a bit of scaling (they needed PEN scaling to stay relevant).


Drake :
Will scale at levels 5, 9, 13, 17.
Duration 25s -> 35s.
To add : Ground Immunity, Fear Aura and Dex Resistance that all other drakes have (Dragon Summon gets an improved version of Fear Aura).
2 Knockdowns -> 3
1 Fire Breath -> 2
Role : Drake is on a weird spot : it is basically a lesser version of Dragon Summon, but is not that much cheaper. It comes alone (well till its death), but its barely OK stats don't really give him an edge over multiple summons (Ogres or Weapons for example). Its upgrade require it to die to be useful, which may not happen reliably.
That's why I think it deserved a good buff. Stat-wise, first, with full scaling. I also added the classic resistances and fear aura of other Drakes. Even with this, I doubt that it matches the raw power of Ogres and Weapons, that's why I want to increase the number of uses of its AoE abilities, to give him an edge over them (especially Ogres who have a bit of AoE themselves).
Even with all this, Drake remains a weaker dragon. That's why I wanted to emphasize its longer duration side since its the only logical edge he can get over a grown-up. 
The result, I hope, is a well-rounded summon who can tank a bit, attack a bit, have some AoE and utility, has an average summoning cost and last for a decent duration (but less than hey phantom).


Dank Spore :
Will scale at levels 5, 9, 13, 17.
Duration 25s -> 35s.
Role : Dank Spore is an utility summon, but still a bit weak since its charm ability has a long casting/recovery and its upgrade's stinky cloud can be tricky to use.
Some scaling will help it a bit (the current version already scale in a weird way for some reason), as well as a slightly longer duration (which also help getting sure he stays long enough to be killed).

Spoiler

(Note that for tricky programming reason, changing this spore may cause Dank Spore foes to scale a bit better, get a better auto-attack and sometimes +1AR. However, I think the effect will be negligible compared to having clean summoning rules)

Animated Weapons :
Are currently already fully scaled.
No change.
Role :  Summons so good I had to analyse all other summons to make sure they could be relevant in front of them. Great brute force with a bit of Prone attacks from Animated Pike.


Dragon :
Will scale at levels 5, 9, 13, 17 (well, it will be fully scaled at level 19 when you get it)
In addition to scaling, I'm going to change Dragon stats because they currently don't make sense, with a bottomless pit of health but lower AR and attack than the drake !
- Armor 7->10(+4 from scaling) with resistance to Fire and Slash and vulnerability to pierce. (Based on the (scaled) version of the Drake, +1 AR)
- Health 200 + 50/level -> 100 + 30/level
- Attack : 16-22 CRU/PIER, 7 PEN, normal attack speed -> 20-26 CRU/PIER, 9 PEN, fast attack (+scaling) (this is based on the drake attack, but slightly improved)
Role : the ultimate summon, but not the best at everything. Its defense will be good, and HP the best, but multiple summons could still have more total HP and AR is not significant vs everything in PotD upscaled. The Dragon is mostly about AoE. It is also good at tanking but it has a rather low duration (less benefit from PL). I don't think improving its auto-attack is that significant because the dragon should mostly use its special attacks. But a 7 PEN attack was not noble enough for this creature. Its fear Aura also brings a bit of utility.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Kaylon]

I don't feel the other summons will become suddenly comparable to summoned weapons if all of them scale normally. For me the reason to choose a summon should be based on their different roles - melee/ranged, crush/slash/pierce/fire/shock damage, CC/DPS/tanking. Wurms/Skeletons will never be comparable to summoned weapons because they're not as tanky and you'll have to summon them twice as much, which justifies the cheaper cost.

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, Kaylon said:

I don't feel the other summons will become suddenly comparable to summoned weapons if all of them scale normally. For me the reason to choose a summon should be based on their different roles - melee/ranged, crush/slash/pierce/fire/shock damage, CC/DPS/tanking. Wurms/Skeletons will never be comparable to summoned weapons because they're not as tanky and you'll have to summon them twice as much, which justifies the cheaper cost.

When I initially started my analysis, I thought there would be much more creatures that require a lower scaling because of balance. Now when I look again at my list, it seems that there is not that many non-fully scaling summons.

Full scaling seems to be possible without too much impact on balance, with only a handful of changes, as listed below :

Chanter :

Skeletons are a non-issue. No one would summon skeletons more often just because they get Exceptionnal Weapons instead of Fine. They are short duration anyway so it's not too much a problem.

Ogres could be fully scaled too. I have redone their DPS calculation, and they will be Under Animated Weapons anyway.

I still believe (upgraded) Wurms could be a problem. Their AR / DPS ratio is basically like if an Animated Warbow was wearing a Medium Armor (weapon is slightly better but recover slightly slower). Their base HP pool is far from being bad, they are Barbarian level, and they have +4 base AR compared to AW. So even if AW are overall a bit tankier, and their MIG/DEX adds up to their DPS,I think that the gap isn't big enough to justify x2 Phrase cost. Also Wurms have a better duration due to more benefit from PL.
But a simple solution could be to reduce a bit their Duration, to Something like base 15s (so they will last less, even taking into account their lower PL), and let them have a Full Scaling.

Priest :

Incarnates come "already scaled" because they can be summoned only from level 19.
I think it's not that  confusing if some come with Legendary Equipment and some others such as Ryrmgand with just a very high base attack.
Incarnate of Skaen stats should be tweaked a bit so that its base Attack match Legendary equipement. 

Druid :

Sporelings aren't a big issue. Even Fully Scaled, they won't hit that hard. They could be slightly OP for a Tier I spell, but since it's a Subclass Feature and still inferior to higher Tier Summon, I think it's alright.

Most of Call to the Primordials Ooze (Black, Magma and Adra) won't be OP with full scaling.
However, Bog Ooze would be brutal, very high damages, 13 AR and 15 PR is better than any druid summon. This would also make the spell random, with 50% of summoning such a monster.
So the easiest solution would be to cut Bog Ooze from the list of Summoned Oozes (EDIT : Or maybe replace it with a Lesser Bog Ooze ? Yes, this is technically feasible since the creature exists). Even scaling a bit more the other oozes would be OK in this case.


I think this solution would be clearer than what I previously stated (and much more than how it is currently in-game).

Edited April 22, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Ok, so I've started developping all the above and I found some Strange issues with the Priest Summon : they don't seem to get all the Equipment in the Gamedata Files, especially weapons (note that it is possible to change Pallid Knight's armor through the same Gamedata Objects, so it is the most likely the right objets : it just doesn't apply completely).
This problem is limited to priest summons, that's why I didn't see it untill now. This means it is impossible to change them directly (but Legendary quality equivalent can be added through passive) but also means there are some discrepancies in the initial table :


Spiritual Ally :
Weapon is a simple Mace (not Fine)

Magran Incarnate :
She has a Superb Rathun Sword and Shield instead of Superb Morningstar.

Berath Incarnate :
Pallid Knight has a simple Greatsword (not Superb). (Her mail has not quality as described in the GameData files)
Usher has a simple Scepter (no superb Quality) and a simple Robe (no Superb Quality). His medium shield is superb though.

Eothas Incarnate :
Male Dawnstar is identical to what I previously described (though he cannot be modified either). Also its base stats are fighter ones (my table shows Priest base stats, but it is impossible to edit now).
I've not been able to check Female Dawnstar 1 (see issue below). Her Leather armor is superb though.
Female Dawnstar 2 has a no quality sickle (no superb weapon) that she uses one-handed. Her Leather armor is superb though.

More important, Female Dawnstar 1 seems to have an infinite recovery. Therefore, I couldn't check her weapon.
I've checked with an unmodded version of this ability.
Would someone be kind enough to confirm the issue ?
I might consider replacing her by another Female Dawnstar 2.

The devs really didn't check the summons very well : now I've confirmed that "Many Lives..." phrase Skeletons scale with the "scaling difficulty option" : if you toggle on the upscaling for foes, they will be better. This is similar to Brittle Bones scaling with difficulty mode... but different.

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Avaritica]

First of all, sorry for the necro.

I figured out more details about summon mechanics which I believe is not covered here so I figured I might post it for future modders to reference.

1. Summon creatures intrinsic level is actually "creature base level+level scaling".

For example, Priest's spiritual ally has base level of 9. If you summon spiritual ally in an area where +4 level scaling is active, it will scale to level 13 REGARDLESS of caster's level.

1. If level 11 caster summon spiritual ally in an area with +4 scaling, summoned ally will be level 13. Scaling pushed it higher caster's level.
2. If level 15 caster summon spiritual ally in an area with +4 scaling, summoned ally will be level 15.(spiritual ally obtain level 13 due to scaling then +2 level scaling to match caster's level)

 

2. "Summoned" vs "NotSummoned"

It is known that summon creatures tagged as "NotSummoned' doesn't count towards summon limit. However, there is a disadvantage to use "NotSummoned" type.

- "NotSummoned" creature doesn't scale to caster's level.

In unmodded game, I believe the only ability related summon tagged as "NotSummoned" is Chanter's phrase "Many lives...". The summoned skeleton doesn't scale to match caster's level.

BPM modded conjure familiars to " "NotSummoned" which unfortunately also cause them to stay at level 1.

- However, if you play with level scaling on, they do get max +4 scaling which I explained above.

 

Btw, the above apply to all summons including figurines.

I did do testing on the above data however my game is heavily and messily modded by myself so if I happen to get it wrong, please forgive me.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Avaritica

[Elric Galad]

10 hours ago, Avaritica said:

First of all, sorry for the necro.

I figured out more details about summon mechanics which I believe is not covered here so I figured I might post it for future modders to reference.

1. Summon creatures intrinsic level is actually "creature base level+level scaling".

For example, Priest's spiritual ally has base level of 9. If you summon spiritual ally in an area where +4 level scaling is active, it will scale to level 13 REGARDLESS of caster's level.

1. If level 11 caster summon spiritual ally in an area with +4 scaling, summoned ally will be level 13. Scaling pushed it higher caster's level.
2. If level 15 caster summon spiritual ally in an area with +4 scaling, summoned ally will be level 15.(spiritual ally obtain level 13 due to scaling then +2 level scaling to match caster's level)

Great information.

I had spotted something similar when addressing a bug about Minor Bog Ooze sometimes getting an ability and sometimes not depending on area (independantly from caster level).

Your explaination is more general, but I confirm it is supported by facts spotted on my side.

10 hours ago, Avaritica said:

2. "Summoned" vs "NotSummoned"

It is known that summon creatures tagged as "NotSummoned' doesn't count towards summon limit. However, there is a disadvantage to use "NotSummoned" type.

- "NotSummoned" creature doesn't scale to caster's level.

In unmodded game, I believe the only ability related summon tagged as "NotSummoned" is Chanter's phrase "Many lives...". The summoned skeleton doesn't scale to match caster's level.

BPM modded conjure familiars to " "NotSummoned" which unfortunately also cause them to stay at level 1.

- However, if you play with level scaling on, they do get max +4 scaling which I explained above.

Ach ach that's a bit sad for poor BPM familiar, but given that it is more of a living self-buff (and possibly some fuel for Divine Retribution) than a combat summon, I don't think it is too bad.

Still better than Conjurer being limited to 1 Summon, and sort of address the problem of flooding with familiars (with Brilliant or something similar).

However, I might consider 2 mitigations :

- Increasing a bit familiar base HP (arnound 50-75-100ish), so it doesn't die to a breeze (can't get too high because of low level, but would hardly be more broken than Ancient Sporelings),

- reducing casting/recovery since the familiar has 0 raw power in actual combat. Maybe to 3s/0s.