Forbidden Fist and General Build Questions

[timidobserver]

*Notes: I am playing on console, so no community patch to change FF to a weapon skill.*

I am aiming for a high deflection single class forbidden fist that will also be able to put out good damage and use the forbidden fist ability fairly frequently. I am planning to play on veteran or POTD with a full group.

1. My character attributes look like the following at the end of character creation. Have I made any big mistakes? To me, it seems like MGT and RES could be too low?
Human Race
MGT - 14
CON - 10
DEX- 15
PER- 18
INT - 3
RES - 18

2. I am primarily going single class Forbidden Fist specifically for Whisper of the Wind. Is that skill worth it/viable using a Forbidden Fist build?

3. I saw a dated thread that recommended Beguiler + Forbidden Fist? Is that still viable in the current game version? How would that setup compare to a single class forbidden fist in terms of single target and aoe damage output?

4. This question is unrelated to Forbidden Fist, but I was also considering a multiclass Inquisitor( Paladin + Soul Blade.) Has anyone had any success with this setup? Any build suggestions like attribute setup or optimal subclass selections?
 

[thelee]

1. if it all possible i would push it to 20 res. deflection has increasing returns, so you really want as many points as you can, and humans are one of only two races capable of hitting 20. i would drop a couple of perception so that you can hit 20 res (if you equip a small shield--like tuolito's--you can get very good accuracy anyway via the shield modal). do be warned that even with max resolve and a shield, on early PotD you will still be getting hit a lot due to enemies getting +15 accuracy. Things get a little better once you can get weapon and shield style, enchanted shields, +resolve or +deflection gear, but it'll be rough at first. when i roll a forbidden fist for the early part of the game, i tend to favor constitution as well for this reason.

2. i'm not a monk expert, but afaict there's nothing particular about forbidden fist that makes it good for wotw, right? i mean, wotw is a decent skill regardless. but you would have to be careful - you would probably want a shield, and even with tuolito's palm equipping a shield will reduce the damage potential of wotw.

 

[timidobserver]

4 hours ago, thelee said:

1. if it all possible i would push it to 20 res. deflection has increasing returns, so you really want as many points as you can, and humans are one of only two races capable of hitting 20. i would drop a couple of perception so that you can hit 20 res (if you equip a small shield--like tuolito's--you can get very good accuracy anyway via the shield modal). do be warned that even with max resolve and a shield, on early PotD you will still be getting hit a lot due to enemies getting +15 accuracy. Things get a little better once you can get weapon and shield style, enchanted shields, +resolve or +deflection gear, but it'll be rough at first. when i roll a forbidden fist for the early part of the game, i tend to favor constitution as well for this reason.

2. i'm not a monk expert, but afaict there's nothing particular about forbidden fist that makes it good for wotw, right? i mean, wotw is a decent skill regardless. but you would have to be careful - you would probably want a shield, and even with tuolito's palm equipping a shield will reduce the damage potential of wotw.

 

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that small shields would increase my accuracy. What are you thoughts on 15 Might for a forbidden fist? 

[Boeroer]

@timidobserver: They don't increase your accuracy. What @thelee meant was that they are not lowering your ACC like medium and large shields do (-4/-8). 

High MIG on Forbidden Fist not only means +15% dmg for your attacks but also +15% dmg for the self damag of the Forbidden Fist curse. If you stack hich RES with some other items and food that redices hostile effect duration and maybe even Voidward then you can pump up MIG and you won't really feel it since the curse will last under 2 secs. If you use Clarity of Agony: even less significant. 

The very early game can be a bit more challenging with high MIG compared to 10 MIG though. But totally doable. You just can't spam Forbidden Fist then because a stack of 2 or more will kill you quickly. 1 is no problem.

good race and items/food for a Forbidden Fist (besides the items which are genereally good, bold are my favorite) : 

• Race: Wild Orlan --> you don't want to suffer -5 RES from Shaken.
• Gloves:
  • Hylea's Talons --> besides the awesome lashes they will also put a DoT on you. You won't get wounds from the damage but once the DoT effect espires you'll get one. With lots of RES, some -hostile effect items and Voidward you won't feel the damage but get wounds.
  • Bracers of Greater Deflection --> +7 Deflection
  • Mortification Bindings --> +2 Mortification
• Neck:
  • Strand of Favor --> -10% hostile effect duration
  • Token of Faith --> +2 RES
• Rings:
  • Ring of the Solitary Wanderer --> +1 to RES and -35% hostile effect duration (only when solo though)
  • Voidward --> -25% raw damage taken
  • Ring of (Greater) Regeneration --> +1/+3 health per 6 secs
• Back:
  • Cloak of Poverty --> up to +5 RES if the party's poor
  • Cloak of the Theocrat --> +1 INT/+1 RES
  • Cloak of Greater Deflection --> +7 deflection
• Head:
  • Death's Maw --> afaik its -15% dmg also works with self damage
  • Horns of the Bleak Mother --> resistence to Resolve Afflictions: you don't want to suffer -5 RES
  • Cap of the Laughingstock --> the -10 deflection hurts a bit, but so does it hurt your enemies and the immunity to RES afflictions is great if you want to prevent -5 RES altogether
  • White Witch Mask --> nice synergy with Parting Sorrow (monk passive, see below terrified enemies may break engagement and thus not only get a disengagement attack but also give the monk +1 wound
• Boots: 
  • Boots of the Stone --> +1 DEX/+1 RES and Resistance to MIG afflictions
  • Shorewalker Sandals --> +10% move speed, +1 RES
• Waist: Trollhide Belt --> +1 health every 6 secs
• Armor:
  • Fleshmender --> +5 health per 12 secs
  • Devil of Caroc Breastplate --> +2 health per 3 secs on crit, +2 Mortification
  • Cabalist's Gambeson --> Arcane Containment (-10% hostile effect duration)
  • Gipon Prudensco --> +5 RES via Steadfast at the start of the combat for 15 secs
• Weapon: dagger + modal --> +10 deflection; as long as you are only using FFability you won't suffer the dmg loss while benefiting from the increased deflection
• Shield:
  • Tuotilo's Palm --> Inward Spikes (10% chance of +1 wound on getting hit; works with Forbidden Fist), Balanced Shield (+1 defl. and reflex per wound), Pugilist or Precision Striker (+10% unarmed damage or +5 unarmed ACC) the last two also work with FFability
  • Cadhu Scalth --> Luminous Harmony (+5% dmg taken, afaik includes self damage; increases with Metaphysics)
  • The Best Defense --> the enchantment that terrifies enemies can be used in combo with Parting Sorrow (see below)
• Food:
  • Rice Wine --> +2 RES, -1 DEX
  • Khapa Leaf --> -15% hostile effect duration
  • Khapa Tea --> -25% hostile effect duration
  • Mohorā Wraps --> -30% hostile effect duration (!), -20% recovery(!), +4 MIG

 

The nice thing about Forbidden Fist is that you can combine tankyness (=not getting hit) with a Monk and still get wounds while you have a very potent attack ability right away (it's really good). The bad thing is that in the early game you can feel a bit starved for wounds (because you can't spam the FFability and other afflictions will not hit you often since the enemies don't really apply them) and you have to manage the use of FFability a bit more. The more levels the better it gets.

Note that Mortification of the Soul and also (Enduring) Dance of Death work normally. They can give you wounds like they do for every other monk.

Abiliites that are especially nice (besides the ones that are always nice anyway) or expecially bad with Forbidden Fist:

• Lesser Wounds doesn't work (can you even pick it nowadays?)
• Clarity of Agony-->Enlightened Agony: obviously
• Lightning Strikes --> Swift Flurry doesn't work with FFability, Lightning Strikes does
• Enervating Blows can't stack with FFability#s enfeebled and therefore isn't worth it.
• Duality of Mortal Presence-->Iron Wheel: the higher CON is nice for raising fortitude and the AR is good for a tanky char anyways. And raising INT by 10 points would prolong the curse's damage a lot. Iirc Turning Wheel didn't work with FFability but I'm not 100% sure anymore.
• Crucible of Suffering --> obviously
• Parting Sorrow --> in combo with any terrify effect this is nice
• Rooting Pain --> generating wounds via FFability, Enduring Dance, Parting Sorrow, Inward Spikes etc. leads to a lot of interrupts 
• Imagined Pain --> get +1 wounds when missed in melee: superb with Forbidden Fist, just superb - also in combo with Rooting Pain

Very nice combo with a Forbidden Fist: a Wizard with Pull of Eora and giving the Monk an item that makes him immune to push/pull effects like Upright Captain's Belt. He can then roam in the Pull's AoE, getting lots of wounds from the short-lived pulls - but they don't really mess him up like they mess up the enemies.

Also works with an Elf or an items with resistance to Dexterity afflictions and Binding Web: Monk will only get hobbled for a very short amount of time, enemies will be stuck. Whenever the short hobble expires you get a wound.

Those can give you lots of wounds - but honestly with enough RES and items you can sam FFability all the time and get wounds nonstop anyway.

What someone else reported and what's pretty nice: a confused Berserker/Forbidden Fist can use the Footsteps of the Beast to give himself very short-lived hobbles which when they expire give you wounds.  

Edit: by the way: all the hostile reffect duration and RES stuff and Voidward etc. work perfectly well for Sacred Immolation, too if I remember a post of some forum colleague correctly. So a Forbidden Fist/Paladin with Sacred Immolation should work well. Very little self damage from SI - but also no massive extra wounds like with normal monks of course.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Boeroer
oops, forgot the food

[Powerotti]

20 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

They don't increase your accuracy.

They do with modal on

Binding Block - +25% Recovery Time with weapons, +15 Accuracy with weapons after being missed by Melee Weapon attack. But it won't work with Forbidden Fist, because it is not a weapon attack. This is best with non-bashing shield and weapon, which modal also increase recovery (like axe or rapier). This effects don't stack, so it's two-for-one deal, and only highest effect counts. Similarly to Barbarian rage and sword modal. Rage effect of -10 deflection is overwritten by half-swording - 15, so basicaly +2 penetration for -5 deflection

41 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Armor:

• Fleshmender --> +5 health per 12 secs
• Devil of Caroc Breastplate --> +2 health per 3 secs on crit, +2 Mortification
• Cabalist's Gambeson --> Arcane Containment (-10% hostile effect duration)
• Gipon Prudensco --> +5 RES via Steadfast at the start of the combat for 15 secs

 

Why not Kahako Nihi?  Doesn't it work for FF without community patch?

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Powerotti said:

They do with modal on

Binding Block - +25% Recovery Time with weapons, +15 Accuracy with weapons after being missed by Melee Weapon attack. But it won't work with Forbidden Fist, because it is not a weapon attack. 

Exactly. At least if you don't use the Community Patch.

1 hour ago, Powerotti said:

Why not Kahako Nihi?

Basically because I said "besides the items which are generally good" - because then I'd have to list way too much stuff that are equally good for all monks, not just Forbidden Fist.
I wanted to concentrate on the stuff that is good for Forbidden Fist but maybe not so much for other monks. Same with the abilites.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Boeroer

[timidobserver]

@Boeroer Thanks that is some great information. I've started the play through and I see what you mean with the 15 MGT in early game, but so far I am managing. Once I get enough levels to use level 7 spells, I think I may buy a mercenary and try the Paladin/Monk idea that you recommended. Which Paladin subclass do you think would be best? 

Also, I can confirm that lesser wounds is not an option for Forbidden Fist on the Xbox version. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by timidobserver

[Boeroer]

I think Stell Garrote would be fun. The health drain from enemies will synergize very well with enfeebling/weakening or stunning from the Monk's attacks and it would counter the health loss from FFcurse or just health loss in general. I also like the thematical combo of a "Forbidden Fist" using a "Steel Garrotte".

Also Goldpact. Gilded Enmity is a great tool to prevent damage and with Sworn Rival it's nearly for free.

Note that Eternal Devotion puts an additional 10% burning lash on everything for quite some time - even on spell-like damaging stuff such as Rooting Pain, Torment's Reach and Sacred Immolation. 

[timidobserver]

@Boeroer How sure are you that lightning strikes works with Forbidden Fist without the community patch? I am reading the description and it says +15% Action Speed, +15% Damage dealt as Shock with weapons for 10.0, Quick for 10. sec.

So, wouldn't the shock damage only apply to weapon attacks?

Edited January 31, 2020 by timidobserver

[Boeroer]

@timidobserver: It doesn't. I was under the impression it did because I'm using the Community Patch (where it works). But I turned off mods after your question to be sure and tried again and it doesn't work.  I misrembered. Maybe because Lightning Strikes works with ranged weapons (and Turning Wheel doesn't) and I mixed tha up in my brain somehow. 

So, if you are not using Community Patch (I don't judge ;)) and use FFability as primary attack then I would pass Lightning Strikes and Swift Flurry and only use Swift Strikes (which works universally and just fine with or without weapon use).

Edited January 31, 2020 by Boeroer

[timidobserver]

@Boeroer

Sadly Community Patch isn't an option on the new Xbox version. 

New question. So I've used int as a dump stat. Is that going to kill the usability of skills like Torment's Reach and Rooting Pain? Will the Int from Duality of Mortal Presence be enough to mitigate it, or should I rebuild with higher int?

Edited January 31, 2020 by timidobserver

[Boeroer]

Yes I know.  Sorry... I mean Forbidden FIst is still nice though - even without mods. You just need to know it's "special needs".

It can be just frustrating that the ability doesn't work as you would expect in some cases and get no hint from the game. Most players won't even notice maybe - but the ones that do will be a bit disappointed. 

So better to know that stuff before you start a Forbidden Fist. It's still awesome if you get it right.

11 hours ago, timidobserver said:

New question. So I've used int as a dump stat. Is that going to kill the usability of skills like Torment's Reach and Rooting Pain? Will the Int from Duality of Mortal Presence be enough to mitigate it, or should I rebuild with higher int?

It could work if you use Duality of Mortal Presence (INT) and tend to always have a high wound count (+10 INT) or use Enlightened Agony (+5 INT - I like it in combination with Iron Wheel on a FFist).

But honestly I would never minimize INT on a monk - not even on a Forbidden Fist. Except if I plan to use Ring of Mule's Wit which can be an efficient move if you are planning to drop INT anyway - because you would gain massive resistances for only losing 2 INT, dropping  from 3 to 1. But then stuff like Duality (INT) and Enlightened Agony wouldn't do much for you because the -8 from RING would also take away INT points from those buffs. So you would be truly dump as a mule.  But also very, very resistant of course...

But normally I wouldn't drop it - also because of Swift Strikes' and Thunderous Blows' duration. It's annoying for me if those run out too quickly (this might be no problem on Turn Based mode though - no idia).
Also later the AoE of Resonant Touch (if you go single class that ability is a must-have in my opinion) would be too small I reckon.

The high RES and items shorten the curse's duration and damage sufficiently - and higher or lower INT doesn't matter that much in that regard (I mean as soon as your RES and items come together - in the early game it does matter more obviously). As I said I would not max MIG because it multiplies with Power Level and Power Leves scales the curse's self damage up. But INT... I would keep it at 10 at least. Just my personal taste with INT in general though. I find it important for most of my chars.