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Concentration mechanics

concentration mechanics

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#1
Kjades

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Hi everyone,

 

not meant as a whining/rant post, just throwing around some questions/doubts.

 

First of all, and maybe needless to say, I do love PoE 2.

 

No matter how much I love it, I can't help thinking the Concentration system (for casters), despite being a really nice idea, is deeply flawed.

Bear with me, and please do let me know if I'm wrong, somewhere:

 

- No matter the level, no matter what kind of caster you are, no matter how high your stats are, you can get at best 1 level of concentration at the beginning of the combat (through the talent). You cannot actually stack concentration layers, you just need to get it up again through spells. And this is what I kind of find insane...you need to cast a spell (one that provides concentration) to cast another spell...you cast a spell to cast another spell...and if u get interrupted during that buff spell, well...you understand where this is going...

 

- Most times (not always) casters are targeted by spells (since they tend to cast from behind the first line). Knowing this, I always try to keep Arcane Reflection up. How ON EARTH can mobs interrupt me if the spell 1) does not deal damage 2) does not even hit me. I have experienced this several times. Is it a bug? Is it working as intended? Is it me who's slowly slipping into madness? Who knows...

 

- Spells/abilities can actually interrupt people while they WALK...I mean...seriously?!? Do I need to be focused to WALK?!? I could understand if the pg received a massive damage/crit, so that he needed some time to recover...that, I'd understand...but grazes/hits too seem to prevent characters from running...again, am I missing something?

 

- This is the best...the one and only level of Concentration protection can be taken off by an attack EVEN WHEN YOU ARE NOT CASTING...so, example: mage running from one side to another of the map, just RUNNING...one arrow hits him with a graze...Concentration goes off...he was NOT EVEN casting...I mean...this cannot be the way developers wanted this mechanics to work, right?

 

So...please, do correct me if you think I'm wrong or just share your view about this...I like the system, just think it could have been implemented in a much better way. Just a thought.

 

Ah, by the way...I'm obviously talking about PotD difficulty.

 

Thanks everyone.


Edited by Kjades, 15 April 2019 - 02:34 AM.


#2
Boeroer

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Hi!
 

- No matter the level, no matter what kind of caster you are, no matter how high your stats are, you can get at best 1 level of concentration at the beginning of the combat (through the talent). You cannot actually stack concentration layers, you just need to get it up again through spells.

That is not correct. You can stack Concentration layers. If you take Combat Focus, use the Upright Captain's Belt and cast Spirit Shield (for example) you'll have three layers of concentration. There's also the Courageous inspiration which gives you a layer every 6 seconds - and so on.
There are effects (e.g. a Chanter phrase) that remove Concentration entirely though.
You can observe layers of Concentration on several enemies. Neriscyrlas for example has a lot of them once encounter starts. It says something like Concentration: 5 or so. 
 

- Most times (not always) casters are targeted by spells (since they tend to cast from behind the first line). Knowing this, I always try to keep Arcane Reflection up. How ON EARTH can mobs interrupt me if the spell 1) does not deal damage 2) does not even hit me. I have experienced this several times. Is it a bug? Is it working as intended? Is it me who's slowly slipping into madness? Who knows...

I don't know which spells you are talking about, but in general: Arcane Reflection can only reflect targeted spells. THat means spells taht get cast directly onto you. Usually that means no AoE spells since those are cast on the ground and will not be reflected. Example: Slicken will always interrupt you or take away a layer of Concentration (if you have any) even if you have Arcane Reflection.
 

- Spells/abilities can actually interrupt people while they WALK...I mean...seriously?!? Do I need to be focused to WALK?!?

You walk up to the bouncer and ask him to punch you in the face while you are walking past him, trying to remember Goethe's Prometheus. ;)
 

- This is the best...the one and only level of Concentration protection can be taken off by an attack EVEN WHEN YOU ARE NOT CASTING...so, example: mage running from one side to another of the map, just RUNNING...one arrow hits him with a graze...Concentration goes off...he was NOT EVEN casting...I mean...this cannot be the way developers wanted this mechanics to work, right?

Not right. It's a very simple system: an interrupt will remove a layer of concentration. That's it. Why make it complicated? You will not be very concentrated after the bouncer hit you on the nose. Goethe's Prometheus will be the last thing you remember after that "interrupt". You should be happy that the enemy wasted a precious interrupt on you walking instead of on you casting (and losing the resource).
 

So...please, do correct me if you think I'm wrong or just share your view about this...I like the system, just think it could have been implemented in a much better way. Just a thought.

I think this part of the mechanics works pretty nicely. There are other things which I believe could be better, but Interrupt vs. Concentration is none of them.

 

Hope I didn't sound douchy - not my intention. :)


Edited by Boeroer, 15 April 2019 - 05:40 AM.

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#3
Arctur

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Goethes Prometheus. Yeah. Bedecke deinen Himmel, Zeus, mit Wolkendunst ... In this Ode Prometheus acts - better: reacts - a tiny bit like Pallegina. In a world of existing gods he is an agnostic o:).


Edited by Arctur, 16 April 2019 - 04:07 AM.


#4
thelee

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Hi!
 

- No matter the level, no matter what kind of caster you are, no matter how high your stats are, you can get at best 1 level of concentration at the beginning of the combat (through the talent). You cannot actually stack concentration layers, you just need to get it up again through spells.

That is not correct. You can stack Concentration layers. If you take Combat Focus, use the Upright Captain's Belt and cast Spirit Shield (for example) you'll have three layers of concentration. There's also the Courageous inspiration which gives you a layer every 6 seconds - and so on.
There are effects (e.g. a Chanter phrase) that remove Concentration entirely though.
You can observe layers of Concentration on several enemies. Neriscyrlas for example has a lot of them once encounter starts. It says something like Concentration: 5 or so. 
 

- Most times (not always) casters are targeted by spells (since they tend to cast from behind the first line). Knowing this, I always try to keep Arcane Reflection up. How ON EARTH can mobs interrupt me if the spell 1) does not deal damage 2) does not even hit me. I have experienced this several times. Is it a bug? Is it working as intended? Is it me who's slowly slipping into madness? Who knows...

I don't know which spells you are talking about, but in general: Arcane Reflection can only reflect targeted spells. THat means spells taht get cast directly onto you. Usually that means no AoE spells since those are cast on the ground and will not be reflected. Example: Slicken will always interrupt you or take away a layer of Concentration (if you have any) even if you have Arcane Reflection.


in addition, many aoe effects might have interrupt on hit or crit, so even if they aren't directly targeting you and aren't even directly related to an interrupt (like slicken), they can still cause an interrupt through indirect targeting.

Arcane Reflection's requirement that a spell be directly targeted at you is actually why it kinda sucks for most fights. Enemy spell casters tend to cast their direct spells on nearby foes, not on distant casters.

- Spells/abilities can actually interrupt people while they WALK...I mean...seriously?!? Do I need to be focused to WALK?!?

You walk up to the bouncer and ask him to punch you in the face while you are walking past him, trying to remember Goethe's Prometheus. ;)
 

- This is the best...the one and only level of Concentration protection can be taken off by an attack EVEN WHEN YOU ARE NOT CASTING...so, example: mage running from one side to another of the map, just RUNNING...one arrow hits him with a graze...Concentration goes off...he was NOT EVEN casting...I mean...this cannot be the way developers wanted this mechanics to work, right?

Not right. It's a very simple system: an interrupt will remove a layer of concentration. That's it. Why make it complicated? You will not be very concentrated after the bouncer hit you on the nose. Goethe's Prometheus will be the last thing you remember after that "interrupt". You should be happy that the enemy wasted a precious interrupt on you walking instead of on you casting (and losing the resource).


As Boeroer mentioned, you *can* have multiple layers of concentration, so being able to strip concentration even when you're not actively doing anything is fundamental to combat mechanics. Tough enemies (or appropriately setup characters) can have many layers of concentration, and requiring them to actively be doing something before using an interrupt would effectively make them un-interruptible.

On top of this, interrupt does stuff even when it doesn't actively "interrupt" an ability - it adds instant recovery (+2s) or prones (knock down for 3s with +2s recovery). So even if you're not doing anything, interrupt can still be punishing and hence why concentration is important even when you're not doing anything. Enemies generating concentration is the main way they can avoid some of my parties perma-interrupt-locking them.

So...please, do correct me if you think I'm wrong or just share your view about this...I like the system, just think it could have been implemented in a much better way. Just a thought.

I think this part of the mechanics works pretty nicely. There are other things which I believe could be better, but Interrupt vs. Concentration is none of them.
 
Hope I didn't sound douchy - not my intention. :)


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#5
Kjades

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That is not correct. You can stack Concentration layers. If you take Combat Focus, use the Upright Captain's Belt and cast Spirit Shield (for example) you'll have three layers of concentration. There's also the Courageous inspiration which gives you a layer every 6 seconds - and so on.

Thanks, I was definitely missing something there...good to know.

 

 

I don't know which spells you are talking about, but in general: Arcane Reflection can only reflect targeted spells. THat means spells taht get cast directly onto you. Usually that means no AoE spells since those are cast on the ground and will not be reflected. Example: Slicken will always interrupt you or take away a layer of Concentration (if you have any) even if you have Arcane Reflection.

 

 

in addition, many aoe effects might have interrupt on hit or crit, so even if they aren't directly targeting you and aren't even directly related to an interrupt (like slicken), they can still cause an interrupt through indirect targeting.

Arcane Reflection's requirement that a spell be directly targeted at you is actually why it kinda sucks for most fights. Enemy spell casters tend to cast their direct spells on nearby foes, not on distant casters

 

I know AOE spells cannot be reflected by AR, I meant targeting spells. I have experienced this issue several times...maybe it was a spell's side effect and I didn't notice...I'll try and look closer when I think I have this situation.

 

 

You walk up to the bouncer and ask him to punch you in the face while you are walking past him, trying to remember Goethe's Prometheus.

 

Hehe I get your point...still, I am not entirely convinced...maybe I'm too used to the old Baldur's Gate's mechanics...it just doesn't really make sense to me.

 

 

As Boeroer mentioned, you *can* have multiple layers of concentration, so being able to strip concentration even when you're not actively doing anything is fundamental to combat mechanics. Tough enemies (or appropriately setup characters) can have many layers of concentration, and requiring them to actively be doing something before using an interrupt would effectively make them un-interruptible.

On top of this, interrupt does stuff even when it doesn't actively "interrupt" an ability - it adds instant recovery (+2s) or prones (knock down for 3s with +2s recovery). So even if you're not doing anything, interrupt can still be punishing and hence why concentration is important even when you're not doing anything. Enemies generating concentration is the main way they can avoid some of my parties perma-interrupt-locking them.

 

I see your point...still...not entirely convinced :geek:

 

 

I think this part of the mechanics works pretty nicely. There are other things which I believe could be better, but Interrupt vs. Concentration is none of them.

 

Hope I didn't sound douchy - not my intention. :)

 

Not at all, on the contrary...thank for brining in your pov, I definitely learnt a couple of things there... :yes:

Thanks both, btw


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#6
Kjades

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Goethes Prometheus. Yeah. Bedecke meinen Himmel, Zeus, mit Wolkendunst ... In this Ode Prometheus acts - better: reacts - a tiny bit like Pallegina. In a world of existing gods he is an agnostic o:).

Pallegina has got guts, I'll give her that...still, living  gods doesn't mean perfect gods...they look a bit more like a Demiurgo, supernatural, overpowered, ****ty, selfish beings :biggrin:


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#7
Arctur

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And they are, indeed! Giving that background the banter between Paladina Pallegina & Xoti is just ... great. Real life dialogue!







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