Cipher as offtank

[Stonebridge809]

I am using paladin/fighter as my tank, but I prefer having an off tank, well a melee that can survive quite well in melee anyway, I want a Cipher for the whisper of treason skill, playing on PoTD. Can't decide what subclass.

 

Initially thought cipher/enchanter (wizard) with dual blunderbusses. But read martial classes work best and can't decide between fighter,paladin and monk

 

Wizard/priest

Priest/chanter

Druid/monk are rest of party

 

Thanks

Edited August 25, 2018 by Stonebridge809

[1TTFFSSE]

cipher/berserker - would be stronger than with fighter paladin or monk in this situation

cipher ascendant or souldblade. soulblade if more pure melee, ascendant if spellcaster

 

That is good melee dps and you won't have duplicate classes

 

in berserker you take

-frenzy+spirit path upgrades

-barbaric smash +upgrade that refunds rage on killing blow

-blooded

-blood lust and blood thirst

-savage defiance

-one stands alone, bloody slaughter and possibly thick skinned

-lions's sprint is highly recomended if you can fit it in but not the end of the world if you can't

-two handed style if using Lord Darryn's Voulge, Oathbreakers End or Espirs Estoque+devil of caroc breastplate

-two weapon style if using modwyr+frostfall or Modwyr+Aldris (or any other good sword) and Bloody Links Chainmail

-combat focus if not using an item that grants immunity to interrups

 

in cipher:

-whispers of treason

-maybe penetrating visions if you go ascendant instead of soulblade

-draining whip

-mental binding or psychovampiric shield

-hammering thoughts

-secret horrors

-painblock and mind lance

-borrowed instinct and tactical meld

-amp wave and disintegrate if ascendant otherwise just disintegrate

-the empty soul

 

offensively in melee it is definately more potent than cipher/monk and same survivability. Paladin/Cipher probably more tanky but looses a lot of damage and cc compared to barbarian. same goes for fighter/cipher - more tanky but less overall cc effects and damage.

 

I would say the best in order from best dps cc and versatility is:

 

Ascendant/Berserker

Soulblade/ Berserker

Souldblade/Devoted

Ascendant/Monk

Souldblade/Bleakwalker tied with Soulblade/Monk

Edited August 25, 2018 by 1TTFFSSE

[Clerith]

Cipher? Offtank? You need to multiclass into something with defensive bonuses. That means either Fighter or Paladin. And for all Ciphers, a martial multiclass for Full Attacks (superior Focus generation) is recommended, yeah. Doing damage via spells doesn't get you Focus.

 

I'd personally choose Paladin. Your defensives are passive, you bring aoe buffs and heals to the party, and you get a cheap and early good full attack in Flames of Devotion.

 

Edit: though if you're playing on lower difficulty, slapping on some heavier armor or shield will make you tanky enough to hold your own in melee.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Clerith

[1TTFFSSE]

Cipher? Offtank? You need to multiclass into something with defensive bonuses. That means either Fighter or Paladin. And for all Ciphers, a martial multiclass for Full Attacks (superior Focus generation) is recommended, yeah. Doing damage via spells doesn't get you Focus.

 

I'd personally choose Paladin. Your defensives are passive, you bring aoe buffs and heals to the party, and you get a cheap and early good full attack in Flames of Devotion.

 

Edit: though if you're playing on lower difficulty, slapping on some heavier armor or shield will make you tanky enough to hold your own in melee.

Paladin/Cipher is tanky enough to solo the game by the way once they buff their defenses via borrowed instinct and the defensives from Paladin or Fighter - same with Fighter/Cipher

 

I think Barbarian/Cipher or monk/cipher provide enough defensives in an off tank role while being offensively better - it depends - I assume his Priest/Chanter will provide enough overall party healing to keep a melee Witch or Transcendent up and doing damage. 

[Clerith]

 

Cipher? Offtank? You need to multiclass into something with defensive bonuses. That means either Fighter or Paladin. And for all Ciphers, a martial multiclass for Full Attacks (superior Focus generation) is recommended, yeah. Doing damage via spells doesn't get you Focus.

 

I'd personally choose Paladin. Your defensives are passive, you bring aoe buffs and heals to the party, and you get a cheap and early good full attack in Flames of Devotion.

 

Edit: though if you're playing on lower difficulty, slapping on some heavier armor or shield will make you tanky enough to hold your own in melee.

Paladin/Cipher is tanky enough to solo the game by the way once they buff their defenses via borrowed instinct and the defensives from Paladin or Fighter - same with Fighter/Cipher

 

I think Barbarian/Cipher or monk/cipher provide enough defensives in an off tank role while being offensively better - it depends - I assume his Priest/Chanter will provide enough overall party healing to keep a melee Witch or Transcendent up and doing damage. 

 

People's skill, experience, min/maxing and plain effort to play optimally differs wildly. Optimally? You're right. However, Paladin and Fighter are the easy and simple solutions. Something like a Barbarian, that offers great offensive melee bonuses, but suffers serious Deflection penalties, is a little harder to make work in a tanky role, especially early. The OP said he's playing on PotD. Barbarian, that gets constantly crit on PotD, is best paired with another martial class imo. It's fine with Cipher when Cipher gets all the good buffs, but definitely squishy at first. For a PotD off-tank, I'd take an actually tanky class.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Clerith

[Stonebridge809]

I wanted cipher for whisper of treason, but if that's not needed I'm open to any suggestion for an offtank that works well with my party and does good dps Aswell as holds Thier own in melee

[Stonebridge809]

How would enchanter wizard/helwalker monk fare?

Or enchanter /shapeshifter?

[Clerith]

If you have a theme build in mind, you should go for it. They're fun and rp-y.

 

A melee Cipher with a mix of damage and toughness that focuses on bending minds.

 

The charm type Cipher actually works quite well with melee builds, since charms are quite short ranged. Whispers of Treason is great, Ringleader is good, Puppetmaster is meh. Charming enemies is slower than just blowing them up, but it is a very safe way of playing. Honestly, aoe charming that enemy firing squad? Feels good man.

 

To build Focus, you need to do damage. For that, dual wield is best. And if you want to be tanky while dual wielding and one of your classes is a squishy caster, I'll still recommend Paladin or Fighter. Paladin is especially potent early in PotD, since your best things, Flames of Devotion and Faith and Conviction are lv1 skills. 

 

Since you want to use your Focus to charm things, the subclass is a little tricky. For Soulblade, you generally want to dump all Focus with your Soul Annihilation melee attack. For Ascended, you want to get to full focus ASAP, then spam Cipher spells for 20 seconds. For simply starting with a charm, them going to melee, them charming again... default Cipher might be best? I can't believe I'm saying that. Though arguably you could just play Ascendant like a normal Cipher, enjoy a MUCH higher Focus pool, much higher Focus gain on hit, higher Focus at battle start, at the cost of lower power level. For charms... power level is nice, but not super important. Actually, you know what? I'd play it like a regular Cipher, but still pick Ascendant.

[Clerith]

How would enchanter wizard/helwalker monk fare?

Or enchanter /shapeshifter?

Enchanter Wizard (Citzal's Spirit Lance?) makes your Soul Annihilation AoE, so I can recommend Wizard/Soulblade.

 

Helwalker makes you take more damage, which combined with Cipher, makes you squishy. I recommend a ranged playstyle for this, Helwalker/Ascendant is very strong.

 

Shapeshifter... you can't cast spells while Shifted, and you want melee steroids, which Cipher doesn't have that much. I can't really recommend this.

 

If you're asking those actual combinations, Wizard/Monk is super strong while Wizard/Druid is meh, you have a lot of good defensive buffs from Wiz but are kinda lacking in damage.

[Stonebridge809]

Yes was thinking dumping cipher and maybe going wizard/monk as off tank, citzels spirit lancer is build I've seen which looks good if it's still viable.

[Stonebridge809]

Not sure if enchanter wizard/shattered pillar monk with citzels Lance would work, gives me plenty defensive buffs and aoe melee, so good mix of dps and survivability it seems?

[Clerith]

Yes was thinking dumping cipher and maybe going wizard/monk as off tank, citzels spirit lancer is build I've seen which looks good if it's still viable.

I'm playing a Wizard/Fighter(Devoted) right now, and I've beaten the game with a Wizard/Monk(Shattered Pillar), both Spirit Lance builds. It's my favorite weapon in the game, and extremely strong if you build around it. Edit: No subclass Wizard, Enchanter sucks compared to base Wizard. The only Wizard subclass worth thinking about is Evoker, and that's for a blaster Wiz.

 

Monk is the stronger build, and has insane synergy Spirit Lance, aoe attacks proccing another aoe attack, aoe stun, all the usual Monk bonuses. Fighter version is still extremely solid and broken, just feels slightly less overpowered than the Monk. I personally like the flavor of Fighter more, blame Scathach for that one...

 

The only real flaws of the Spirit Lance is the annoying summoning time and the pierce only damage. Have a backup plan for undead. But the pros more than make up for it.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Clerith

[Stonebridge809]

Unarmed good back up? Thanks for all advice mate. Appreciate it. I'll go wizard/shattered pillar monk as my watcher I think.

[Clerith]

Unarmed good back up? Thanks for all advice mate. Appreciate it. I'll go wizard/shattered pillar monk as my watcher I think.

Yeah, Monk fists crush skeletons, it's one of the many, many reasons Wizard/Monk is so good - you don't get the Devoted penalty for switching to a non-pike, you just whip out the fists (or any weapons) to deal with pierce immune. I used fists, was no problem. In fact, I mained fists until I got Spirit Lance. You can even spec both two-handed style and two-weapon fighting if you want, or respec later.

 

Shattered Pillar was nerfed a lot, you don't get Wounds from skills now. You have to use a rhythm of skill - auto-attack - skill - auto-attack. It's still good enough to be broken, mind you. But for now, just pick your favorite Monk subclass. Nalpazca is amazing if you don't mind taking drugs every fight, though this build (Wiz buffs and Monk drugs) gets shut down HARD by Arcane Dampener, Shattered Pillar is less spammy but still good, and Helwalker is good extra damage, the extra damage taken isn't that bad with the amazing Wiz self-buffs.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Clerith

[Boeroer]

The Lance has pierce damage, but the Blast has crush. So if you encounter pierce immune or resistant foes you can just switch targets - if there are any of course.

 

Lance + Stunning Surge + Swift Flurry + Heartbeat Drumming ist just bonkers, I agree. Add some Merciless Gaze and at some point Martial Power for the additional ACC and mobs are just gone.

 

For Nalpascas there is the Soul Void amulet. It gives you a White Leaf trip after each rest and is perfect to reduce "real" drug consumption. I never ran out of drugs with this one because a good part after rest is covered by the amulet. You can get it quite early. Nalpasca gets +1 wound per 6 seconds from drugs, 2 wounds per 6 seconds from Dance of Death and the usual wounds when getting damaged. So using Alacrity is a great way to inflict wounds on yourself with a Sage (doesn't end Dance of Death). The self damage of Alacrity scales with PL and MIG -> more wounds per cast the higher you level.

 

I'm using a similar setup with a Nalpasca/Berserker (same abilites except Alacrity is Berseker Frenzy here) and I get wounds faster than I can spam them with Torment's Reach. It's quite hilarious. Unless you face wizards with Arcane Dampener Nalpasca is the no.1 monk for me right now. Helwalker is also nice, but the increased damage, paired with self damage leads to so many knockouts on my part that it's only good for chars that attack from afar (for me). Shattered Pillar comes last in my opinion - but with the Lance he's quite great as well because mortification is not altered for him and getting 5 wounds is a matter of one auto-attack if there are enough enemies.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Boeroer

[Stonebridge809]

You've certainly convinced me to look into nalpazca, was the subclass I thought I'd never play. Do drugs become a burden on your money? Or are they not to bad popping one every fight or so

[Boeroer]

You can buy them in a lot of places, they are quite cheap and you find enough of them. You can even craft them by yourself (wasn't possible in PoE).

 

In the beginning you might want to budget with drugs and only use them when you must, but after Port Maje you can use them at the beginning of every fight. I don't use them for the easy fights though - because why bother.

 

Nalpascas get +10 Power Level with drugs - that means they last a lot longer and are better. Alchemy does the same. So you want high Alchemy as well.

 

How did we get from "cipher as offtank" to Nalpasca though?

Edited August 26, 2018 by Boeroer

[Stonebridge809]

Haha cipher was for whisper of treason. And played cipher in PoE1. But decided against it lol since not been to impressed with them so far . Wizard /nalpazca it is. Thanks for advice. Top notch as always

[Haplok]

Eh, it would work as an OFF tank, with a lot of versality provided by Wizard spells, but at least on PotD it doesn't work that great for regular gameplay IMO. A lot of buffs are short lived and expire all too fast. The number of casts is very limited. When you finish buffing, you barely have any spells left. And despite the coolness factor of throwing enemies around, monk just lacks the punch to be a serious damage dealer (at least prior to Heartbeat Drumming and stacked with very high accuracy bonuses).

My test sample at level 13 against the tough kobolds encounter on the Neketaka island showed that, while decently durable, such a build just couldn't push enough damage to eliminate foes fast before the buffs expire. Many attacks ended as Grazes. Also they usually resisted most of his Stunning Blows, Raised Torments and often even Force of Anguish. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Haplok

[Haplok]

A Cipher / Paladin would be a pretty cool off-tank, with lots of nice support abilities. Not much casting synergy (like Int+Might bonus and speed from Helwalker monk, Accuracy bonuses from Ranger or Recovery reductions from Streetfighter or Barbarian), but should have no trouble filling Focus and staying in melee.

 

Or maybe a Trickster rogue for more damage focus with the pretty great defensive buffs, which should allow him to stay in melee.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Haplok

[Verde]

Cipher has Borrowed Instinct and can disable/debuff enemies easily. For an offtank with damage and debuff try a Trickster/Beguiler or Soulblade.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Verde

[Boeroer]

Wizard/Soulblade with Citzal's Spirit Lance and Draining Whip is also very good. Soul Annihilation dumps raw damage onto every enemy you hit with the Lance's AoE. And you're at full focus after one attack (if you can hit several enemies).

Good offtank as well because of the self buffs.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Boeroer

[Stonebridge809]

Wizard/Soulblade with Citzal's Spirit Lance and Draining Whip is also very good. Soul Annihilation dumps raw damage onto every enemy you hit with the Lance's AoE. And you're at full focus after one attack (if you can hit several enemies).

Good offtank as well because of the self buffs.

In terms of playstyle and overall effectiveness of the builds which works better or would work better with the rest of my party?

[Boeroer]

You mean Nalpasca/Wizard or Soulblade/Wizard? I think the monk wins because Swift Flurry + Heartbeat with an AoE weapon alone is pretty crazy. If you paralyze some foes with Ninagauth's Shadowflame and then poke them with that combo flurry/drumming/surge/lance... Ouch!