15 level dungeon

[Archaven]

this are my thoughts. it makes more sense to have 15 level deep of dungeon in first poe as the area are not as big. for deadfire is more open world. i think 15 levels abit too much. maybe 5 would be great if each level are full of content.

 

the problem i see with so many dungeons, locations, quests, etc. it's really hard to balance the game that way. unless obsidian's goal in poe3 is that progression dont tie to level cap so they can focus on more content and balancing the XP reward wont be that difficult.

[Daggerknight]

Endless Paths was fun and epic, but this game is hardly suffering from a lack of content as it is. Some of the dungeons could, perhaps, been bigger, but I don't think the game felt lacking without an obligatory massive dungeon for the sake of having one. 

[PizzaSHARK]

If anyone is upset they did not add a 15 layer dungeon like me then please post here. I love the game to death but I always thought the 15 layer dungeon would be a staple of pillars of eternity, and omitting it from the game leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. I understand that the devs are human, and it takes a lot of work to do something like a 15 level dungeon, but I would pay money for a 15 layer dungeon in a heartbeat.

 

I know if there was a 15 layer dungeon in the game then there would be less content somewhere else. But I want to beg obsidain PLEASE make a huge dungeon like in pillars 1. That would be a very nice staple to have and something for the fans to expect in every game, giving people a greater sense of security when deciding if they want to buy the game. For example, if I was to consider buying call of duty 95 and it had zombies, then I would feel more safe about making the purchase because I know zombies will be in the game, and even if the game continues its insanely fast declining quality multiplayer then I would still be able to enjoy the purchase. 

 

Anyone else that would like to see a 15 level dungeon as an expansion?

 

Not really.  The game world is already crammed full of paint-by-numbers combat encounters, and Endless Paths in Pillars wasn't particularly great.

 

There's already not enough in the world of Deadfire to make exploring actually FUN - since it's all just mindless combat encounters and equipment to either vendor or use to fight more mindless combat encounters, for the most part - so the last thing they need is even MORE reason not to go explore.  Any expansions need to concentrate on making sailing around the Deadfire Archipelago exciting and engaging rather than just a mindless pursuit of map completion.

[PizzaSHARK]

Yes, the whole Kickstarter mechanic for generating the dungeon levels kind of backfired a bit in making Endless Paths longer than it needed to be. I prefer fewer, broader levels that emphasize the three dimensional nature of the dungeon.

 

Pillars suffered terribly from Endless Paths clearly taking development time away from frankly more important things.  It would've made more sense to have just the first few levels, enough to resolve Kana Rua's quest, and then have some kind of blockage or whatever that the player can't clear away until a post-release DLC adds in the project or something.

 

Deadfire ALSO suffers from "too much, too little time," in this case especially in regards to basically everything involving the ship.

 

Obsidian should probably not do stretch goals anymore.  They seem to have severe issues managing the additional workload they create.  Either do it, or don't do it - don't let people decide whether or not you should cram in a half-finished idea via funding amounts.  I would have greatly preferred a fully-developed and fleshed out ship combat DLC/expansion for a reasonable price than the half-finished, uninspired crap that's in the game now, even if it meant I had to wait some months before I could give it a whirl.  You can only make a first impression once.

[Tigranes]

I agree with you, but (1) not doing such stretch goals will probably reduce funding as well, reducing development hours total; (2) people just seem to constantly cry out for more and bigger things - like all the folks expecting Deadfire to be bigger than BG2 before release.

 

I liked the Endless Paths, and do miss a single proper dungeon in Deadfire, but I understand that Deadfire's actually a pretty big game and they needed to focus on the core content - which in this case meant the islands and such.

[PizzaSHARK]

I agree with you, but (1) not doing such stretch goals will probably reduce funding as well, reducing development hours total; (2) people just seem to constantly cry out for more and bigger things - like all the folks expecting Deadfire to be bigger than BG2 before release.

 

I liked the Endless Paths, and do miss a single proper dungeon in Deadfire, but I understand that Deadfire's actually a pretty big game and they needed to focus on the core content - which in this case meant the islands and such.

 

That's just because, quite honestly, people are dumb.  I backed Pillars and Deadfire because of what they had potential to be (potential that was never QUITE realized for Pillars although by 3.0 it got really damn close, I'm confident that Deadfire will EVENTUALLY get there given how much better Pillars got with patches and DLC), not because of stretch goals.

 

I think stretch goals also have a serious problem of setting unrealistic expectations for a game.  Deadfire advertised ship combat and pirate stuff and so I immediately thought of the numerous tabletop modules and campaigns that take place on whatever the setting's example of the high seas are (best ever was in a gargantuan desert and played like Pirates of the Caribbean was banging Mad Max over Dune), and of course it couldn't ever come close to that - but that's what the marketing set expectations for and it failed horribly on that front, just like Pillars failed miserably by trying to act like it was going to beat BG2 (it didn't come even remotely close at launch, and still doesn't even with 3.0; it at least met or beat BG1 at launch and kicks the tar out of it by 3.0).  Tyranny is my favorite Obsidian project, and I think that's both because I didn't have any expectations (I didn't even hear about it until barely a month from launch) and because it's a small project.  I feel like Pillars and now Deadfire have been an example of Obsidian biting off more than they could chew.

 

High seas campaigns ALWAYS have room to have more content added in later, it's one of the big draws of such a setting.  There will always be islands to discover, you can have tectonic or magical events CREATE new islands (which then clearly beg to be explored and looted), there will always be room for a cops-and-robbers pirate economy, you can fight ****ing krakens and sea dragons and all kinds of legendary seaborne gribblies, etc.  So I frankly don't think that Deadfire NEEDED to try and do everything all at once for launch.  I would've been quite happy with JUST the critical path content and a smattering of side quests - the nature of the setting means it's not terribly difficult to add in additional content post-launch... PLUS they could have emphasized and focused heavily on the critical path and really sold it as urgent, leaving the side content to quite literally be added in later, after the narrative is resolved (and that in itself gives you tons of avenues to pursue!)

 

Instead, the core narrative is almost like ****ing Fallout 4 where you exit the Vault screaming about finding your baby and then 30 in-universe minutes later you're discussing wallpaper options for your new settlement with your somehow-still-functional robotic butler, then at random points during the game you go back to screaming incoherently at people about your baby before returning to bashing desk fans against solid objects until they vomit screws at you.

[xzar_monty]

PizzaSHARK is really gaining reputation as a reasonable person, calling people dumb and swearing like a frustrated adolescent. Way to go, mate.

 

Dungeons are difficult. Endless Paths was a serious victim of "too much size, too little content", whereas Watcher's Keep in BG2 got it just about right.

[PizzaSHARK]

PizzaSHARK is really gaining reputation as a reasonable person, calling people dumb and swearing like a frustrated adolescent. Way to go, mate.

 

Dungeons are difficult. Endless Paths was a serious victim of "too much size, too little content", whereas Watcher's Keep in BG2 got it just about right.

 

Say stupid things, and you get called out on it.  Maybe being a pretentious **** makes the little girls swoon over you but I've long since lived past the point where people give a tin **** about choice of words versus what's being said.

[injurai]

 

If anyone is upset they did not add a 15 layer dungeon like me then please post here. I love the game to death but I always thought the 15 layer dungeon would be a staple of pillars of eternity, and omitting it from the game leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. I understand that the devs are human, and it takes a lot of work to do something like a 15 level dungeon, but I would pay money for a 15 layer dungeon in a heartbeat.

 

I know if there was a 15 layer dungeon in the game then there would be less content somewhere else. But I want to beg obsidain PLEASE make a huge dungeon like in pillars 1. That would be a very nice staple to have and something for the fans to expect in every game, giving people a greater sense of security when deciding if they want to buy the game. For example, if I was to consider buying call of duty 95 and it had zombies, then I would feel more safe about making the purchase because I know zombies will be in the game, and even if the game continues its insanely fast declining quality multiplayer then I would still be able to enjoy the purchase. 

 

Anyone else that would like to see a 15 level dungeon as an expansion?

Although the mega-dungeon  was a nice stretch goal idea for PoE1, it clearly got away from them when it reached 15 levels and I never though it was a particularly engaging piece of content. Each to his own I guess, but I vastly prefer "dungeon content" similar to Raedric's Hold -- which we got in Deadfire in the shape of Fort Deadlight and Hasongo, which were both awesome. I also really enjoyed The Hanging Sepulchers and The Old City, both in Neketaka, though the latter admittedly could've been a bit bigger.

 

But yeah, I'm always for more dungeon content, though I don't think they need to be 15 levels. In fact, I think I'd prefer them not to be that big. Some of my favorite dungeons ever -- Durlag's Keep, Dragon's Eye, The Severed Hand, Upper and Lower Dorn's Deep, Durgan's Battery -- are between 5 and 10 levels, which IMO is the sweet spot.

 

 

Laborious descents into subterranean despair are content unto themselves. Some people just lack a classical sense of adventure.

[PizzaSHARK]

 

 

If anyone is upset they did not add a 15 layer dungeon like me then please post here. I love the game to death but I always thought the 15 layer dungeon would be a staple of pillars of eternity, and omitting it from the game leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. I understand that the devs are human, and it takes a lot of work to do something like a 15 level dungeon, but I would pay money for a 15 layer dungeon in a heartbeat.

 

I know if there was a 15 layer dungeon in the game then there would be less content somewhere else. But I want to beg obsidain PLEASE make a huge dungeon like in pillars 1. That would be a very nice staple to have and something for the fans to expect in every game, giving people a greater sense of security when deciding if they want to buy the game. For example, if I was to consider buying call of duty 95 and it had zombies, then I would feel more safe about making the purchase because I know zombies will be in the game, and even if the game continues its insanely fast declining quality multiplayer then I would still be able to enjoy the purchase. 

 

Anyone else that would like to see a 15 level dungeon as an expansion?

Although the mega-dungeon  was a nice stretch goal idea for PoE1, it clearly got away from them when it reached 15 levels and I never though it was a particularly engaging piece of content. Each to his own I guess, but I vastly prefer "dungeon content" similar to Raedric's Hold -- which we got in Deadfire in the shape of Fort Deadlight and Hasongo, which were both awesome. I also really enjoyed The Hanging Sepulchers and The Old City, both in Neketaka, though the latter admittedly could've been a bit bigger.

 

But yeah, I'm always for more dungeon content, though I don't think they need to be 15 levels. In fact, I think I'd prefer them not to be that big. Some of my favorite dungeons ever -- Durlag's Keep, Dragon's Eye, The Severed Hand, Upper and Lower Dorn's Deep, Durgan's Battery -- are between 5 and 10 levels, which IMO is the sweet spot.

 

 

Laborious descents into subterranean despair are content unto themselves. Some people just lack a classical sense of adventure.

 

 

Alternatively, some people have seen laborious descents into subterranean despair so many times across so many games that they're no longer capable of being an adventure in and of themselves.  It's worth noting that, in many cases, the dedicated CRPG players that really love the subgenre have also played a LOT of tabletop.

[xzar_monty]

I'm not sure if laborious descent into subterranean despair is the main factor, although I agree that as a device it's getting pretty cliched (in this genre), so it really takes some doing to make it work.

 

The main factor is the story element: what's the reason for that descent, what happens during that descent and whether the rewards for and/or results of that descent are such that it makes it feel worthwhile. I think that as a concept, the Endless Paths was really good: you've got your stronghold, but there's something evil lurking underneath, and you have a pretty strong motive for checking it out. Too bad that at least half of the dungeon was rubbish. (I think it remains reasonably interesting until you resolve Kana's quest, after which it's utter rubbish until the final guardian before you get to the dragon.)

 

Incidentally, I believe Obsidian made a huge, huge error on the dragon level, when it comes to visuals vs. content. I mean, there are piles and piles of coins in there, you can plainly see it. But when you actually loot it, you get like 1,000 cp or whatever. One of the biggest WTF moments in the game.

[PizzaSHARK]

I'm not sure if laborious descent into subterranean despair is the main factor, although I agree that as a device it's getting pretty cliched (in this genre), so it really takes some doing to make it work.

 

The main factor is the story element: what's the reason for that descent, what happens during that descent and whether the rewards for and/or results of that descent are such that it makes it feel worthwhile. I think that as a concept, the Endless Paths was really good: you've got your stronghold, but there's something evil lurking underneath, and you have a pretty strong motive for checking it out. Too bad that at least half of the dungeon was rubbish. (I think it remains reasonably interesting until you resolve Kana's quest, after which it's utter rubbish until the final guardian before you get to the dragon.)

 

Incidentally, I believe Obsidian made a huge, huge error on the dragon level, when it comes to visuals vs. content. I mean, there are piles and piles of coins in there, you can plainly see it. But when you actually loot it, you get like 1,000 cp or whatever. One of the biggest WTF moments in the game.

 

I agree.  I think Endless Paths simply had too many levels - maybe because "15 floor dungeon!!!" looks really, really good on Kickstarter advertising blurbs as a stretch goal.  It might have made more sense to condense it severely, to like five or six floors that are much larger.  You could easily have each floor or two having their own miniature narrative, keeping things fresh and interesting both from a narrative and gameplay standpoint.

 

I feel like a broken record here, but Durlag's Tower in Tales of the Sword Coast is still one of the finest dungeons Obsidian ever had a hand in making (as Black Isle Studios, I don't know how much input Bioware had on the creation of the dungeon, if any.)  It never overstays its welcome, it contains a wide variety of gameplay styles and types and has its own interesting little narrative.

 

In more recent terms, I think the Temple of Eothas in Gilded Vale (hell, everything involving Act 1 in Pillars) was also really good.  The dungeon was short, so it didn't feel like the encounters got to the point of being boring and most encounters were different from one another - you had spiders, wisps, and skuldrs on the first floor, and various types of spirits, oozes, and one big fight with a king skuldr and its buddies on the second floor.  There was a clear narrative throughout the area, some simple puzzle-solving, and at the end you're rewarded with some loot and a choice on how to resolve the quest (such as by having your 3 foot tall orlan pick up a nearly 6 foot tall human by the throat and throw him around like a rag doll!)  There's also a dungeon on a random island in Deadfire rang the same bells as the Temple of Eothas did, involving some of those always-fun Woedicans, and I ****ing loved it - too bad that sort of thing seemed to be the exception and not the norm, at least from what I played before getting bored and stopping.

 

Maybe it's tabletop experience talking here, but I REALLY go for a "less is more" philosophy when it comes to dungeons/adventuring areas.  Fewer combat encounters (so that each encounter can be unique and challenging in different ways), more exploration, and ideally some means of tying non-combat skills into the adventure.  Sadly, neither Pillars nor Deadfire  have much in the way of meaningful non-combat skills although Deadfire made great strides towards improving that compared to Pillars.

Edited June 30, 2018 by PizzaSHARK