"Supressed" Story...

[theBalthazar]

- It would be completely pointless for a single attack to have bonus ACC, bonus PEN or bonus anything if it got supressed by buffs. The inherent values of an attack ability can not be considere4d as buffs and thus don't fall under the normal stacking rules.

 

 

Totally agree.

But I can say the exactly same thing for zealous focus. Pointless to invest in that !

 

 I can't remember that you complained that much about PoE's stacking rules. 

 

 

True. Because 2 reasons :

 

1) I like emphasis. So IN POE1 if zealous focus works with stack + 10 (radiance) and +20 accuracy (devotion) of priest. It is less problematic. Not for the haxx but for the freedom. I would have say the same thing with a nerf of 10 of accuracy for devotion : Because my problem is not the nerf : but the utility of an ability. But globally in POE1 the problem was already here like Kaylon say. It was bypass by few exceptions. Priest notably, and priest is the king of accuracy. I use the best in each role so yes, I complaint less in POE1.

I don't support the haxx of 6 priest with inspired radiance for example. But I support that each Ability give his true amount. Only this. In POE1, there was less associations (no multiclass), game is played differently. With the apparition of multiclass in POE2, it is an invitation to...  Exploration of possibilities ?

 

"supressed"

"supressed"

 

2) Fun. It is not fun to see all your test have always a limit. Pillars is perhaps the game with the most of stacking rules. Boring, frankly. One of the pleasure of team building is not to have 6 characters isolated, supressed each others. So I prefer less bonus but with a true impact. Like say above, a bonus of 3 or 4 is perfect. I prefer 3 than 0 with awful stacking rules. My choice of picking this or this must be rewarded. That's why I was happy of nerf of devotion for the faithful. 10 is the perfect number. Except it reach the limit of all others "little" passives bonuses. (5 ; 10).

Edited June 8, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

But in PoE Zealous Focus didn't stack with Disciplined Barrage. If you could have multiclassed in PoE1 you would have faced the exact same problem on one character. You also had the same "problem" with party synergy. Why take Zealoud Focus when I can cast Blessing? Why Zealous Endurance when I can cast Armor of Faith? There were just more exceptions (like Inspiring Radiance, Inspiring Exhortation and so on).

Being able to stack all buffs would have some (non-desireable) impacts: In order to balance the individual bonus would have to be lower. That would mean that parties with fewer members or solo chars would suffer. A party made of 6 single classes couldn't stack as much as a party of 6 multiclass chars and so on. This would lead to even more frustration and less balance. You need some stacking rules, especially when you allow multiclassing.

Now maybe some ACC bonuses get suppressed - but you'll still have a good ACC buff and can put your ability points elsewhere instead of dumping them all into lower ACC buffs that might stack.

However - I'm pretty sure I laid out some reasonable arguments. Feel free do disagree. I just think you're making a mountain out of a molehill since you won't stop to complain about this since beta1.

And again because it doesn't seem to sink in: The stacking rules of Deadfire are simpler and better than those of PoE. If you complain about the stacking rules of Deadfire you also should really do a hatchet job on the stacking rules of PoE - in form of a fat book.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[theBalthazar]

Being able to stack all buffs would have some (non-desireable) impacts: In order to balance the individual bonus would have to be lower. That would mean that parties with fewer members or solo chars would suffer. A party made of 6 single classes couldn't stack as much as a party of 6 multiclass chars and so on. THis would lead to even more furstration and less balance. You need some stacking rules, especially when you allow multiclassing.

 

 

Yes. A team building. Like I say above : With this system, except chanter or paladin and their shared value, you have 6 individual isolated warriors.

But Pillars is mainly a team building.

 

Solo players have others tools to use (consumables, more xp) So it is not a true reason for me. And after that, for intermediate team, it is the choice of players... 90 % of people play with 5 party members...

 

Fun

Logical = I invest 1, I received 1.

 

Fun and logical > bad balancing

 

And "Bad balancing" single is a story of obsidian. There was so much more different way to allow a GOOD and POWERFUL single class... Obsidian is guilty here.

Edited June 8, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

Without stacking rules and suppression a team of 5 multiclass chars could stack twice as much ACC bonuses as a team of single class chars. That's poor balance and also it gives buffs too much power over gear, stats and other game elements. So you would need to tune individual bonuses down. That would lead to a situation where you'd have to stack all ACC bonuses and spend all your ability points on that or drop the ball entirely and go for something else. You wouldn't like that as well. Not enough fun, not enough power, you name it. 

[theBalthazar]

Not really.

 

You have what actually ?

 

In terms of shared ? 5 accuracy of aura...

 

You change at 3.

 

Devotion for the faithful = 10.

 

Total = 13.

 

Cipher have +20 accuracy self. Ranger +20 wounding shot +10 pray.

 

Accuracy = +50.

 

So yeah... 13 accuracy will not change the face of the world : p

Previously : 10 (hightest : fighter stance or devotion)

 

If I am a single player Priest+Paladin. I have 13.

 

If I am a single player cipher+Ranger. I have 50.

 

EDIT : You speak of "stack". But in fact Boeroer ? If you stack all the different stuff (accuracy + Defense + armor, differents bonuses of two classes for example, and non supressed). You have a variety of buff. FAR MORE than single class in solo. And what ? It is already far more effective.

 

So in fact it is the same situation. Why a player can't choose his bonuses, his price ? Choose the same kind of bonus ? It is a bias already here.

 

Obsidian tends to push the players to always make the same teams with this system. Optimal system is to reach all different bonuses. Not better than stacking the same bonus. If I have more... X  I have less Y. Deal.

Fighter 25 % hit to crit. Accuracy+10.

Paladin 5 % hit to crit. Accuracy+5. 

 

No! I can't take this ! supressed. So ok, I take the armor. I have now 25 % hit to crit + 1 armor and soon healing with upgrade. I have no choice...  I am now Far better than a single class in solo play in any way.

 

Situation 1 with 5 party members : Full variety of bonus : Check, OK. Power of the team : MAX.

Situation 2 with 5 party members : Attempt to full stack a same kind of bonus : NO. Power of the team : 0.

 

Final ascertainment : If all party members give the best bonus for a variety of bonuses :

 

 In order to balance the individual bonus would have to be lower. That would mean that parties with fewer members or solo chars would suffer. A party made of 6 single classes couldn't stack as much as a party of 6 multiclass chars and so on. This would lead to even more frustration and less balance. You need some stacking rules, especially when you allow multiclassing. 

 

 

Result of our investigation : No.

You only need to find the biggest number + Take a variety of bonuses. Solo player is sadly crushed.

Edited June 8, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Braven]

 

 

Monk’s turning wheel INT bonus stacks with smart inspiration.

Last time I checked it did not (beta3). Did they change that?

 

Helwalker's MIG bonus does stack because it's a passive.

 

I know of no example (after quite some testing) where two actives that directly address the same stat will stack.

Just checked in game: does not stack Duality of Mortal Presence (INT) does NOT stack with Elightened Agony (Smart, +5 INT). The lower one automatically gets suppressed as it should be.

 

Oh, really? I thought I tried it before and it worked. Maybe something else was adding it and I just assumed it was the smart inspiration from agony. Or maybe it was that shield which grants smart doing it since it is from an item.

 

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to mislead.

 

Update: The suspected shield inspiration is suppressed by duality, so that wasn’t it. Annoying, since some item powers do stack with active abilities while others don’t so you still don’t realky know what will be suppressed for certain.

 

Update 2:  Looks like I was not crazy.  I checked again today and they stack again.. not sure what causes the same inspiration to sometimes stack and sometimes get suppressed.  Now this is the Pillars of Eternity I love and remember... inconsistent stacking behavior.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Braven

[Braven]

Just checked in game: does not stack Duality of Mortal Presence (INT) does NOT stack with Elightened Agony (Smart, +5 INT). The lower one automatically gets suppressed as it should be.

 

 

 

 

Mine also got suppressed when I checked yesterday.  However, when I check again today they stacked again.  The smart inspiration came from the same source so it wasn't an abilitiy vs item difference or anything.  Apparently the stacking is just buggy.  I reloaded multiple times just now and they stacked every time.  I tried casting in different orders and such but it made no difference.  See screenshot below to see stacking.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Haha - my God, how messy. I have the same problems with triggering disengagement and also Offensive Parry from the WotEP. They sometimes trigger and sometimes not - in the same kind of situation. There is some basic flaw in the game mechanics that causes inconsistent behaviour. Would you like to file this one (suppressed/not suppressed) as a bug?

Edited June 9, 2018 by Boeroer