Faction's of DEATH, AKA: Why do pirates have the moral high ground?

[Taevyr]

 

PS: as for Aeldys' moral superiority, this is the same woman who hung defector skulls on the walls of her fortress to make a pun, no matter how great that pun may be. She's a loose cannon who happens to enjoy being aimed at slavers, and not being interested in ruling nor having a goal does help reduce your kill count. Which could probably use some reducing, her being a pirate and stuff.

You do realize that desertion IS punishable by death in modern militaries, right (Article 85 UCMJ)? Hell, in the US at the current moment falling asleep on guard duty is punishable by death (Article 113). It is very important in armed conflicts that people are where they're supposed to be and doing what they're supposed to be doing. Similar rationale can be applied to pirates.

Neither "modern" nor "military" are applicable to Aeldys' faction or even the principi in general. I get the idea of punishing desertion, but unless the US army has a new policy that includes beheading deserters and using their skulls as torchlights, or the US marines have started pillaging transport ships, I don't see the comparison.

 

Also, the pirates in question were a crew whose captain served under her, yet decided to jump ship (pun intended) when she got too brutal for them, so technically you could chalk it up to "morally objectionable orders" if we would continue comparing to a modern military.

[mishona]

You're right. They're not a standing army nor a modern society, so it should come as absolutely no surprise and be completely understandable and justified that they hold a human right, life, to be more easily surrendered than modern first-world countries. But they don't. Desertion isn't acceptable, never has been, and likely never will be in any solvent group. At least not armed paramilitary groups where the deserters took a ship on top of deserting. Out of curiosity, what do you think any other faction would have done in that scenario?

[Taevyr]

Desertion isn't acceptable, never has been, and likely never will be in any solvent group. At least not armed paramilitary groups where the deserters took a ship on top of deserting.

 

Where did you get the idea any principi crew could be considered a "paramilitary group", or that they stole a ship? They were an independent pirate crew who chose to sail under Aeldys' flag, and left when they grew distasteful of her methods, taking their ship with them since, you know, it's their ship . Since the principi are nothing but a loosely connected brotherhood led by infighting consuegla captains under whose flag you can freely choose to sail, there's no principi law stating they can't do so. Neither is there a principi law stating Aeldys can't use their skulls as nightlights, but I consider "leaving because your self-chosen captain is a bit too crazy for your tastes" to be more understandable, and moral, than "making nightlights out of your former subordinates because they wouldn't follow you anymore".

 

 

Out of curiosity, what do you think any other faction would have done in that scenario?

The rauataians would likely hunt down, sentence, and probably execute soldiers that went AWOL, as would any other military do in a contested area, no matter the age;  the cannoneer I picked up at the brass citadel could leave the RDF to join my crew without a hitch though, presumably since she didn't just pack up and leave without going through the proper processing.

 

The Huana military would probably do the same, or throw them into the old city which amounts to the same thing.

 

The vailians' action depends on whether they breached contract, and what terms there were in case of a breach, though they'd probably try and find a loophole to get rid of them anyway.

 

In each of these cases, however, it's either a member of a military group defecting or going AWOL, or a breach of contract, the terms of which would be defined by the contract in question; both cases are also supported by law, unlike piracy. I won't say that Aeldys killing defectors isn't understandable, given her faction and position, but it's also far from a lawful, quick execution as well as quite hypocritical considering her devotion to freedom.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Taevyr

[mishona]

The Principi very much are a paramilitary group. They have a clear chain of command and hierarchical structure and most certainly are arrayed in opposition to the ruling powers of the day. But it seems your basic stance is if the people saying what you can and can't do have land to call their own which then lends legitimacy of their dictates of what is and isn't acceptable behavior; is that the main thrust of it?

[Karkarov]

So after beating the game I still feel Aeldys is a morally mostly sound choice.  She does not want to run the deadfire (+1 moral high ground), she does not take Ukaizo for herself, maybe she loots it, but she seals it up and leaves after preventing anyone from abusing it (+1 more moral high ground), she does not try to oust the Principi old guard and let's each pirate basically be their own pirate (within standing Principi rules) (+1 more moral high ground).

She may be somewhat crazy, and violent, but she is not actually amoral.  Why does she hate Furrante?  Because he is a dirty scheming backbiter who lies and cheats his way to victory, when she is a direct "let's fight it out best pirate win" person.  Regardless of whatever her motivation might be, she is clearly anti slavery.  The Roparu in the Gullet were starving when you arrive, Mad Morenna is using this to make some profit but is helping the Roparu with supplies while every other faction turns a blind eye.  Who does Mad Morenna work for?  Oh yeah...

 

The idea of her being this scum bag murdering loony just doesn't jive, her reputation does not match her actual in game actions.  She is actually a less crazy, more violent, Jack Sparrow.

[Ildun]

She may be somewhat crazy, and violent, but she is not actually amoral.  Why does she hate Furrante?  Because he is a dirty scheming backbiter who lies and cheats his way to victory, when she is a direct "let's fight it out best pirate win" person.  Regardless of whatever her motivation might be, she is clearly anti slavery.  The Roparu in the Gullet were starving when you arrive, Mad Morenna is using this to make some profit but is helping the Roparu with supplies while every other faction turns a blind eye.  Who does Mad Morenna work for?  Oh yeah...

 

The idea of her being this scum bag murdering loony just doesn't jive, her reputation does not match her actual in game actions.  She is actually a less crazy, more violent, Jack Sparrow.

 

Aeldys is Aeldys, Mad Morenna is Mad Morenna, same go to Benweth.

I'm helping Furrante, but I'm anti-slaver and killed all slavers, after Furrante learnt that he just say he will let it go, does that make him looks good?

[mazeltov]

We don’t really know how disasterous The Wheel being destroyed (or even destroyed *and* inaccessible for repair/research) is yet, because the game doesn’t make it clear at all what the repercussions of The Wheel being destroyed are.

 

If Eora was immediately thrown into a worldwide Hollowborn crisis (which would be known within hours, or days at most) you’d think the ending slides would mention it. If it’s not and babies are still being born with souls just fine then the whole thing seems like a fuss over nothing.

 

A key, key point. Far more important than which faction achieves political/military supremacy and by what means. My Watcher ended up not throwing her weight behind any of the factions and sailing to Ukaizo alone to try and settle the Wheel crisis. From the perspective of not really knowing the ramifications of Gaun's actions at the Wheel before he takes them, the decision of which faction to back with regard to the Wheel crisis is an agonizing one. My feeling is that the VTC (and back of them, other scientists and researchers in the more liberal Vailian Republics) has the best chance of using Ukaizo/luminous adra as a springboard to not only figure out the Wheel, but potentially to rediscover all manner of Engwithan knowledge or technology that could lead to a Renaissance or even a golden age.

[jf8350143]

I'd like to side with VTC, but that makes Maia leave and I really like Maia.

 

RDC is awful but Rauatai doesn't seem that bad, considering they listen to Maia and change their ways.

[drchocapic]

Well you can't really expect anyone to be "good" when piracy, forced colonization, imperialism and a rigid caste system are involved.

Edited May 25, 2018 by drchocapic

[flamesium]

 

We don’t really know how disasterous The Wheel being destroyed (or even destroyed *and* inaccessible for repair/research) is yet, because the game doesn’t make it clear at all what the repercussions of The Wheel being destroyed are.

If Eora was immediately thrown into a worldwide Hollowborn crisis (which would be known within hours, or days at most) you’d think the ending slides would mention it. If it’s not and babies are still being born with souls just fine then the whole thing seems like a fuss over nothing.

 

 

A key, key point. Far more important than which faction achieves political/military supremacy and by what means. My Watcher ended up not throwing her weight behind any of the factions and sailing to Ukaizo alone to try and settle the Wheel crisis. From the perspective of not really knowing the ramifications of Gaun's actions at the Wheel before he takes them, the decision of which faction to back with regard to the Wheel crisis is an agonizing one. My feeling is that the VTC (and back of them, other scientists and researchers in the more liberal Vailian Republics) has the best chance of using Ukaizo/luminous adra as a springboard to not only figure out the Wheel, but potentially to rediscover all manner of Engwithan knowledge or technology that could lead to a Renaissance or even a golden age.

The problem with animancy for me is they’re using the mining of souls and the soul transportation infrastructure as fuel. That seems like a suicidal road to take. It’s also only one small step from cutting out the middle man and simply using the souls of the living, as the Engwithans did at multiple sites and as Beza thinks Alvari would consider- and I doubt she would be the only one given the ‘profit above everything’ nature of the VTC. Using luminous adra for study is probably inevitable now, but using it to fuel an industrial revolution of sorts seems risky.

 

It could be that the whole luminous adra thing is intended as allegory for our own use of non-renewable fuel sources, except that humanity won’t potentially give up the ability for babies to be born with souls if we run out of oil.

[rheingold]

Well you can't really expect anyone to be "good" when piracy, forced colonization, imperialism and a rigid caste system are invoved.

This.

[Ildun]

 

The problem with animancy for me is they’re using the mining of souls and the soul transportation infrastructure as fuel. 

 

Adra is just a material which can store or manipulate soul, it is not form by soul. If use correctly you can siphon part of soul essence without doing harm, like what you can do to the dragon in Watershaper guild. But yeah, it has high potential to be abuse. However kith will abuse any resource anyway.

[Aramintai]

The problem with animancy for me is they’re using the mining of souls and the soul transportation infrastructure as fuel. 

Just to clarify here - it's not souls they mine but soul essence. It's not somebody's grandma's ghost they're desecrating, but formless energy. But fuel allegory is not bad. Thing is, just like with oil and coal which we can only extract at the surface, adra runs much deeper and through whole of Eora to the core. So even if they chip at the head of a pin, it's not gonna ruin anything noticeably. And besides that, adra can regenerate itself in time. For example, in POE1 the big statue was disconnected from the rest of the vein because its legs were chewed on by adra bugs. But five years later they regenerated and that allowed Eothas to power it up.

[flamesium]

 

The problem with animancy for me is they’re using the mining of souls and the soul transportation infrastructure as fuel.

 

Adra is just a material which can store or manipulate soul, it is not form by soul. If use correctly you can siphon part of soul essence without doing harm, like what you can do to the dragon in Watershaper guild. But yeah, it has high potential to be abuse. However kith will abuse any resource anyway.

Adra is that. Luminous Adra is Adra full of souls. That’s why they are specifically mining and fighting over Luminous Adra and nobody particularly cares about regular Adra. It’s also why it’s suggested they could not bother mining Luminous Adra and simply take the ‘soul energy’ directly from living people instead via sacrifice, like the Engwithans did. Eothas (himself made of Luminous Adra) is also using the Luminous Adra pillars as refueling stations if you need further proof, sucking the souls out of them to power his march across the Deadfire. It’s the souls which are providing the energy; the adra is merely a conduit.

 

Presumably the Adra in the Deadfire is ‘Luminous’ because it’s where The Wheel is located. Souls are ‘pulled’ there and bunch up waiting their turn on The Wheel.

 

Kith will abuse any resource, true, but the abuse of most resources doesn’t have the potential to destroy the ability for future generations to have souls.

 

PoE 1 touches on the idea that as the population increases the available ‘soul energy’ has to be spread thinner, leading to weaker individual souls. Taking ‘soul energy’ out of the reincarnation system entirely for other uses (to power an industrial revolution say) will only worsen that effect, even assuming The Wheel were still operational.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

 

The problem with animancy for me is they’re using the mining of souls and the soul transportation infrastructure as fuel.

Adra is just a material which can store or manipulate soul, it is not form by soul. If use correctly you can siphon part of soul essence without doing harm, like what you can do to the dragon in Watershaper guild. But yeah, it has high potential to be abuse. However kith will abuse any resource anyway.

Adra is that. Luminous Adra is Adra full of souls. That’s why they are specifically mining and fighting over Luminous Adra and nobody particularly cares about regular Adra. It’s also why it’s suggested they could not bother mining Luminous Adra and simply take the ‘soul energy’ directly from living people instead via sacrifice, like the Engwithans did. Eothas (himself made of Luminous Adra) is also using the Luminous Adra pillars as refueling stations if you need further proof, sucking the souls out of them to power his march across the Deadfire. It’s the souls which are providing the energy; the adra is merely a conduit.

 

Presumably the Adra in the Deadfire is ‘Luminous’ because it’s where The Wheel is located. Souls are ‘pulled’ there and bunch up waiting their turn on The Wheel.

 

Kith will abuse any resource, true, but the abuse of most resources doesn’t have the potential to destroy the ability for future generations to have souls.

 

PoE 1 touches on the idea that as the population increases the available ‘soul energy’ has to be spread thinner, leading to weaker individual souls. Taking ‘soul energy’ out of the reincarnation system entirely for other uses (to power an industrial revolution say) will only worsen that effect, even assuming The Wheel were still operational.

 

I don't recall it ever mentioning the soul energy having to be spread over a larger population, where is it mentioned? I recall it being said that new souls are actually created and that there was no fear of running out soon, rather the issue was that individual souls degraded over time when inbetween bodies. 

[flamesium]

 

The problem with animancy for me is they’re using the mining of souls and the soul transportation infrastructure as fuel.

 

Just to clarify here - it's not souls they mine but soul essence. It's not somebody's grandma's ghost they're desecrating, but formless energy.

It’s somewhere in between but much closer the latter than the former. As a Watcher we know first hand that souls remain largely intact throughout the cycle (with some alterations made here and there while on The Wheel), hence why you are able to read a soul’s former lives. The souls marching alongside you in the adra vein during the intro are discrete individual souls, not a river of jumbled up ‘essence’.

 

‘Essence’ seems like a euphemism to make the practice of grinding soul infused adra into fuel more palatable.

[Aramintai]

I think there is one unanswered question about using soul essence - does it dissipate entirely or just gets scattered where once it was concentrated? In one of the streams devs explained how wizards cast spells - it was something about chipping off a bit of their soul to cast a spell and what's chipped later regenerates through essence floating around. Also, there  was a lore tidbit about people who used refined luminous adra products (balms, potions, pipe smoking, etc.) - they are invigorated by it (sort of like Galawain's ending in POE1) and even start experiencing some Watcher like abilities. Doesn't say whether it's permanent though, only that it's considered dangerous for mental health when not used in moderation.

So I'm not sure this fantastical fuel follows the same rules of conservation of energy as in the real world.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Aramintai

[Ildun]

 

 

The problem with animancy for me is they’re using the mining of souls and the soul transportation infrastructure as fuel.

Adra is just a material which can store or manipulate soul, it is not form by soul. If use correctly you can siphon part of soul essence without doing harm, like what you can do to the dragon in Watershaper guild. But yeah, it has high potential to be abuse. However kith will abuse any resource anyway.

Adra is that. Luminous Adra is Adra full of souls. 

 

 

No, luminous adra is just a stronger version. The adra which full of soul is corrupted adra.

[flamesium]

I don't recall it ever mentioning the soul energy having to be spread over a larger population, where is it mentioned? I recall it being said that new souls are actually created and that there was no fear of running out soon, rather the issue was that individual souls degraded over time when inbetween bodies.

 

Unless I imagined it -which would not be unheard of btw- I believe it’s mentioned when discussing Galawain’s plan to use the Hollowborn souls to strengthen the souls of the people in the Dyrwood. If not then during discussion of the Autumn Stelgaer’s role of culling weak souls.

 

New souls can be created, but I believe it is by a process of ‘thinning out’ existing souls as they go through The Wheel, rather than getting something for nothing.

[Aramintai]

New souls can be created, but I believe it is by a process of ‘thinning out’ existing souls as they go through The Wheel, rather than getting something for nothing.

Yea, I recall something like that and even in Deadfire main plot it is said by the gods that if the Wheel is not fixed, all souls sooner or later will trickle into and get stuck in the Beyond, like in reservoir and people will die out. So soul essence seems like a finite resource, but malleable - it can accommodate increased population by splintering souls.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Aramintai

[flamesium]

No, luminous adra is just a stronger version. The adra which full of soul is corrupted adra.

Corrupted Adra is ‘blocked’ Adra which prevents a soul flowing through it. You can see this at the Poko Kahara waystation where the machinery has made an ‘off switch’ in the base of the pillar by corrupting the adra, so that the ‘soul energy’ from their sacrificial victim pods on the upper floors will become ‘trapped’ in the top of the pillar - effectively making a battery of the healthy top part of the pillar.

 

Eothas explains that he’s sucking souls out of the luminous adra pillars for fuel, as well as out of people he passes by. He himself is made of luminous adra, being an adra statue rammed full of souls.

 

If you convince Eothas to help kith after he’s done breaking the wheel, the ‘light of thousands of souls’ leaves his body. If you don’t tell him to do anything the souls stay trapped within him and the statue continues to glow.

[Ildun]

 

No, luminous adra is just a stronger version. The adra which full of soul is corrupted adra.

Corrupted Adra is ‘blocked’ Adra which prevents a soul flowing through it. You can see this at the Poko Kahara waystation where the machinery has made an ‘off switch’ in the base of the pillar by corrupting the adra, so that the ‘soul energy’ from their sacrificial victim pods on the upper floors will become ‘trapped’ in the top of the pillar - effectively making a battery of the healthy top part of the pillar.

 

Eothas explains that he’s sucking souls out of the luminous adra pillars for fuel, as well as out of people he passes by. He himself is made of luminous adra, being an adra statue rammed full of souls.

 

If you convince Eothas to help kith after he’s done breaking the wheel, the ‘light of thousands of souls’ leaves his body. If you don’t tell him to do anything the souls stay trapped within him and the statue continues to glow.

 

 

Yes, because it is blocked so the soul will trap, if not the soul will flow through adra. Without manipulation, adra is just a conduit with essence, so people are not mining soul .

[Sarakash]

What still eludes me how was the flow of souls was handled before the creation of the wheel ?  How I understand it, the Engwithans created the gods and most likely the wheel. This process took centuries to achieve. In turn that means there had to be some form of natural order which the Engwithans manipulated in their creation act, thus creating the cycle as we (and the gods) know it today. Apparently they had to be incapsulated in it. Eothas even refers to the wheel as a machine, a machine that now controls the supossedly natural flow and distribution of souls which also nurtures the gods themselves and therefore sustaines their existence. That much Berath has admited and I am inclined to take her at face value on this. 

 

The question is, do the gods even know what happens after the dismanteling of the Enghithan´s wheel other then that they might perish? The cycle could just snap back into it´s natural order as in how it was before they were created. The gods aren´t all knowing, they are constructs build on a concept. For instance, Wael does not keep secrets out of self interest, but to induce a sense of wonder in kith and thus inspire curiosity. It´s his nature. I wonder if it has any benefit to imprint the information how the cycle worked before in a beeing like Wael. I figured it would be more of a detriment as it might influence the concept in which Wael - or any of the other gods for that matter - was created in a negative way. In other words: In order for the original plan to work, the gods must not doubt their purpose.

 

So, what is the consequence of Eothas act really? Was there a natural order of distribution before the Engwithans and how did it work ? Was it like the wheel and the Engwithans just build the machine on top if it in order to sustain the gods ? If so, is it irreversible?

 

When I reached the point of commiting to one of the factions, I rather asked myself which one will do the least damage if there was such a thing as a natural order before the gods inception. This is why I ruled out VTC and to an extend RDC. The Huana were to religious for my taste in context of the questions I had, which left the pirates or doing it myself.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Sarakash

[flamesium]

 

 

No, luminous adra is just a stronger version. The adra which full of soul is corrupted adra.

 

Corrupted Adra is ‘blocked’ Adra which prevents a soul flowing through it. You can see this at the Poko Kahara waystation where the machinery has made an ‘off switch’ in the base of the pillar by corrupting the adra, so that the ‘soul energy’ from their sacrificial victim pods on the upper floors will become ‘trapped’ in the top of the pillar - effectively making a battery of the healthy top part of the pillar.

Eothas explains that he’s sucking souls out of the luminous adra pillars for fuel, as well as out of people he passes by. He himself is made of luminous adra, being an adra statue rammed full of souls.

If you convince Eothas to help kith after he’s done breaking the wheel, the ‘light of thousands of souls’ leaves his body. If you don’t tell him to do anything the souls stay trapped within him and the statue continues to glow.

 

Yes, because it is blocked so the soul will trap, if not the soul will flow through adra. Without manipulation, adra is just a conduit with essence, so people are not mining soul .

I think you have fundamentally misunderstood the story of the game if you haven’t realised luminous adra is luminous because it has souls in it.

 

In Poko Kahara the souls are trapped *by* the layer of corrupted adra, not *inside* the corrupted layer. They have been deliberately bottled up in the healthy top part of the pillar and prevented from making their way past the corrupted layer into the rest of the adra network and toward The Wheel.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

I don't recall it ever mentioning the soul energy having to be spread over a larger population, where is it mentioned? I recall it being said that new souls are actually created and that there was no fear of running out soon, rather the issue was that individual souls degraded over time when inbetween bodies.

Unless I imagined it -which would not be unheard of btw- I believe it’s mentioned when discussing Galawain’s plan to use the Hollowborn souls to strengthen the souls of the people in the Dyrwood. If not then during discussion of the Autumn Stelgaer’s role of culling weak souls.

 

New souls can be created, but I believe it is by a process of ‘thinning out’ existing souls as they go through The Wheel, rather than getting something for nothing.

 

Well the first souls must have come from somewhere. Souls seem to regenerate as well, recovering their power without having to consume other souls so souls increasing in number via mitosis that results in two souls equally as strong as the original soul seems valid with 'twinned' souls being the result of the process not going quite right and leaving a connection between the two (otherwise most people in Eora would have to be twinned souls at the very least to account for the increase in population).