Faction's of DEATH, AKA: Why do pirates have the moral high ground?

[Casper]

the point i was making was that: while the wheel is broken the souls trapped in the in-between as well as the souls of everyone who dies after this point will be stuck there, now, no matter what transpires (or rather transpires in regards to safe-harbor vs inspiration) it will still take a lot of time to find a solution. now, if inspiration speeds up the process rapidly meaning years instead of decades, or months instead of years, then i might see it as a more viable (instead of equally viable) option.

but, having seen both outcomes play out i'd say letting eothas build this safe heaven for souls is perhaps slightly more acceptable, though that requires metagame knowledge, so on the surface, in my mind they are equally viable options.

[Aramintai]

but, having seen both outcomes play out i'd say letting eothas build this safe heaven for souls is perhaps slightly more acceptable, though that requires metagame knowledge, so on the surface, in my mind they are equally viable options.

Yea, no meta knowledge, no certainty. But I figure it's better to take any help at actually fixing the problem asap, instead of helping already dead souls to feel better while they're waiting. Them feeling better won't help fixing the very thing that keeps them stuck.

[Yonjuro]

 

 Do you agree that the Roparu are better off under the Rauitai than the Huana?

I'd rather leave them alone and let them reform themselves, it seems inevitable anyway. And, btw, that bad situation in the Gullet can be perfectly solved by Huana themselves, if you convince the prince. Leaving the situation to be resolved by Rauataians only leads to them razing the whole district without solving any actual underlying problems.

 

 

Fair enough, but we also see a Huana leader attempting to torture a confession out of an innocent Roparu. The Roparu are screwed in several ways in the Huana culture, not just the problems in the Gullet.

 

 On the other hand, you have the 'long house' where all of the Huana classes are treated equally. That was reason for my question. It is still consistent to believe that the Huana need to sort out their own problems, but let's not ignore that a large segment of their population is oppressed badly under their own rule and are treated more fairly by the Rauitai. The worst thing that seems to be happening in the Long House is that some of the upper class Huana are resentful that they aren't segregated from the Roparu and that isn't even the majority opinion.

 

 Here's another way to look at it, if you view the upper class Huana and the Roparu as two different peoples, which is a reasonable way to view things, why is it ok for one to oppress the other?

[Aramintai]

 On the other hand, you have the 'long house' where all of the Huana classes are treated equally. That was reason for my question. It is still consistent to believe that the Huana need to sort out their own problems, but let's not ignore that a large segment of their population is oppressed badly under their own rule and are treated more fairly by the Rauitai. The worst thing that seems to be happening in the Long House is that some of the upper class Huana are resentful that they aren't segregated from the Roparu and that isn't even the majority opinion.

 

 Here's another way to look at it, if you view the upper class Huana and the Roparu as two different peoples, which is a reasonable way to view things, why is it ok for one to oppress the other?

 

Your view of the Huana culture is the same as any other foreigner. To the foreigners it looks barbaric and oppressive, to Huana it seems perfectly fine and acceptable. Most Roparu are content with their lot in life, because like in real world Indian culture, they believe that the gods will reincarnate them into higher caste in the next life (which, unlike the real world, is actually quite possible). And far from all Huana are fine with being stuffed with other castes in one house and living like Rauataians want them to, there was a heated argument just outside of that house.

Personally, I think trying to force your own culture on somebody else's without understanding the intricacies of it is a sure road to disaster, especially when religion is involved. But I support when people of other culture realize the flaws of their way of life and advantages of other cultures by themselves. It's what you can see in real world's  modern multicultural/"melting pot" cities.

[Yonjuro]

Your view of the Huana culture is the same as any other foreigner. 

 

 Surely your view is that of a foreigner too?

 

To the foreigners it looks barbaric and oppressive, to Huana it seems perfectly fine and acceptable. Most Roparu are content with their lot in life, because like in real world Indian culture, they believe that the gods will reincarnate them into higher caste in the next life (which, unlike the real world, is actually quite possible).

 

 

 The innocent Roparu being tortured for a crime he didn't commit voiced his opinion and he disagrees with you, but perhaps he doesn't represent the majority. Would you explain his culture to him in the way you are explaining it to me? Seriously, does he just not understand how un-oppressed he is or are you excusing the inexcusable because you don't think cultures can be interfered with?

 

 

And far from all Huana are fine with being stuffed with other castes in one house and living like Rauataians want them to, there was a heated argument just outside of that house.

 

Yes, that is what I was referring to when I said there were people complaining that they weren't segregated from the Roparu. There are also people of different castes in the house working together and getting along well. Should they be forcibly re-segregated because their culture demands it?

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying that your opinion is wrong, but you seem to be defending some actions that are indefensible because of a well intentioned belief about the sanctity of cultures. Or, am I misunderstanding your point?

[Aramintai]

 Surely your view is that of a foreigner too?

My view is not arrogant enough to think it is superior above all else and should be imposed on others.

 

 

The innocent Roparu being tortured for a crime he didn't commit voiced his opinion and he disagrees with you, but perhaps he doesn't represent the majority. Would you explain his culture to him in the way you are explaining it to me? Seriously, does he just not understand how un-oppressed he is or are you excusing the inexcusable because you don't think cultures can be interfered with?

 

You keep bringing that up but who's that? A known freeloader and offender from Tikawara? Knowing his past record the warrior had every right to suspect him being a culprit. And that torture you speak of is a variant of stocks, a common thing even in the real world not long ago. I'm not saying he should pay for the crime he didn't commit, but I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary of how he's handled for that world.

 

 

Yes, that is what I was referring to when I said there were people complaining that they weren't segregated from the Roparu. There are also people of different castes in the house working together and getting along well. Should they be forcibly re-segregated because their culture demands it?

There were people complaining that they are being forced to be grateful and submissive to the Rauatains will for some quality of life they brought even when some Huana didn't feel like it. Lower castes in Huana culture seem to be submissive by the nature of their caste, otherwise there'd be a revolution ages ago, so sure, most of them were willing to submit to Rauataians and accommodate with other castes in one house. But better question is why is there a longhouse in the first place? Most likely it is there because Rauataians built their outpost on top of existing Huana village and those Huana were left without homes. So Rauataians built them this cheap barrack to live in, instead of bothering to build separate, more comfortable houses.

 

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying that your opinion is wrong, but you seem to be defending some actions that are indefensible because of a well intentioned belief about the sanctity of cultures. Or, am I misunderstanding your point?

I'm not defending their backward caste system, I'm defending their right for sovereignty and a right to find their own way without being forced to assimilate into other culture. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Aramintai

[Yonjuro]

 

 Surely your view is that of a foreigner too?

My view is not arrogant enough to think it is superior above all else and should be imposed on others.

 

 

 I'm not sure I would use the word arrogant but you certainly seem to think you know the right answer to this deliberately grey situation. 

 

 

 

 

The innocent Roparu being tortured for a crime he didn't commit voiced his opinion and he disagrees with you, but perhaps he doesn't represent the majority. Would you explain his culture to him in the way you are explaining it to me? Seriously, does he just not understand how un-oppressed he is or are you excusing the inexcusable because you don't think cultures can be interfered with?

 

You keep bringing that up but who's that? A known freeloader and offender from Tikawara? Knowing his past record the warrior had every right to suspect him being a culprit. And that torture you speak of is a variant of stocks, a common thing even in the real world not long ago. I'm not saying he should pay for the crime he didn't commit, but I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary of how he's handled for that world.

 

 I keep bringing it up because it is an injustice. He's a "known freeloader" because he isn't willing to work hard in order to give everything he has worked for to someone else - one of the many toxic elements of this culture. As a result, someone is able to frame him for crime he didn't commit and he is tortured to force him to confess. Yes, I call it torture because that's exactly what it is. 

 

 Lower castes in Huana culture seem to be submissive by the nature of their caste, otherwise there'd be a revolution ages ago, so sure, they were willing to submit to Rauataians and accommodate with other castes in one house.

 

 If they can be falsely accused of crimes, tortured until they confess and then put to death for refusing to play their cultural role that might be the reason why they are submissive, no?

 

..

I'm not defending their backward caste system, I'm defending their right for sovereignty and a right to find their own way without being forced to assimilate into other culture. 

 

 Your point about sovereignty is reasonable, but you are, in fact, defending some of the worst things about their culture in the name of sovereignty. If you had been saying all along, "no, they really shouldn't be torturing the innocent person, but that's their problem to fix and no one else's" then that would sound like a pure argument about sovereignty.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Yonjuro

[Katarack21]

 

 On the other hand, you have the 'long house' where all of the Huana classes are treated equally. That was reason for my question. It is still consistent to believe that the Huana need to sort out their own problems, but let's not ignore that a large segment of their population is oppressed badly under their own rule and are treated more fairly by the Rauitai. The worst thing that seems to be happening in the Long House is that some of the upper class Huana are resentful that they aren't segregated from the Roparu and that isn't even the majority opinion.

 

 Here's another way to look at it, if you view the upper class Huana and the Roparu as two different peoples, which is a reasonable way to view things, why is it ok for one to oppress the other?

 

 Most Roparu are content with their lot in life, because like in real world Indian culture, they believe that the gods will reincarnate them into higher caste in the next life (which, unlike the real world, is actually quite possible).

Um...have you been to the Gullet yet? There's quite a *lot* of discontent and even outright *anger* brewing...because they're *literally starving to death* and *NOBODY* is "fine" with that. It's made very clear.

[Aramintai]

 I'm not sure I would use the word arrogant but you certainly seem to think you know the right answer to this deliberately grey situation. 

Hey, I'm just sharing my personal opinions. You don't have to agree to them.

[Yonjuro]

 

 I'm not sure I would use the word arrogant but you certainly seem to think you know the right answer to this deliberately grey situation. 

Hey, I'm just sharing my personal opinions. You don't have to agree to them.

 

 

Perhaps I misunderstood this part of what you said:

 

My view is not arrogant enough to think it is superior above all else and should be imposed on others.

 

 

 Were you attempting to differentiate yourself from others posting on the topic?

[Aramintai]

Um...have you been to the Gullet yet? There's quite a *lot* of discontent and even outright *anger* brewing...because they're *literally starving to death* and *NOBODY* is "fine" with that. It's made very clear.

An oversight by the ruling caste that is not defendable, sure, but this situation in the Gullet is not normal and wasn't like that before. It was caused by a recent influx of region's population gathering in the city, which clearly is unable to accommodate so many new people. It is clearly a major problem, which locals are unable to solve without outside help, and will continue to be so, because the influx does not stop. Funny thing is, the influx itself is caused by foreigners invading the region and now only with foreigners help this situation can be resolved. But I'm not gonna make any statements that the Roparu there are being mistreated out of malice or need to oppress them. On the contrary, generally it is expected that the Roparu are provided for by the ruling caste.

 

Similar problem happened in Tikawara when the tribe was forced to relocate there, a barren island, where it is hard to grow food. For them there is also no other way but to scatter and leave the island or stay by accepting outside help.

 

So yeah, these abnormal situations clearly show how the caste system is flawed and given more of these situations it's not hard to imagine something revolutionary could have happened on its own. Alas, with all the factions crap going on and discovery of Ukaizo it's probably not meant to be even if Huana are up top, as they probably will improve food shortage problem by making themselves rich and influential by ruling Ukaizo, while keeping the caste system as is.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Aramintai

[Aramintai]

 Were you attempting to differentiate yourself from others posting on the topic?

I was referring to Rauatains, more than anything else, if you couldn't tell. 

[Casper]

 

 I'm not sure I would use the word arrogant but you certainly seem to think you know the right answer to this deliberately grey situation. 

Hey, I'm just sharing my personal opinions. You don't have to agree to them.

 

from my prospective the extent of your argument was basically: it's their right to be fascists if they want to, and the situation is fine as is, because it's their job to fix it themselves. even if the oppressed are unable to do so. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Casper

[Yonjuro]

 

 Were you attempting to differentiate yourself from others posting on the topic?

I was referring to Rauatains, more than anything else, if you couldn't tell. 

 

 

 I couldn't. Thanks for clarifying.

[Aramintai]

from my prospective the extent of your argument was basically: it's their right to be fascists if they want to, and the situation is fine as is, because it's their job to fix it themselves. even if the oppressed are unable to do so. 

Clearly my definition of fascism differs from yours. But I see this word being thrown at most factions here without much thought.

And also, before accusing anybody of oppression you should check out Indian Hinduism and its relation to their caste system to get a clearer impression of how Huana people view their life.

[Katarack21]

 

Um...have you been to the Gullet yet? There's quite a *lot* of discontent and even outright *anger* brewing...because they're *literally starving to death* and *NOBODY* is "fine" with that. It's made very clear.

An oversight by the ruling caste that is not defendable, sure, but this situation in the Gullet is not normal and wasn't like that before. It was caused by a recent influx of region's population gathering in the city, which clearly is unable to accommodate so many new people. It is clearly a major problem, which locals are unable to solve without outside help, and will continue to be so, because the influx does not stop. Funny thing is, the influx itself is caused by foreigners invading the region and now only with foreigners help this situation can be resolved. But I'm not gonna make any statements that the Roparu there are being mistreated out of malice or need to oppress them. On the contrary, generally it is expected that the Roparu are provided for by the ruling caste.

 

Similar problem happened in Tikawara when the tribe was forced to relocate there, a barren island, where it is hard to grow food. For them there is also no other way but to scatter and leave the island or stay by accepting outside help.

 

So yeah, these abnormal situations clearly show how the caste system is flawed and given more of these situations it's not hard to imagine something revolutionary could have happened on its own. Alas, with all the factions crap going on and discovery of Ukaizo it's probably not meant to be even if Huana are up top, as they probably will improve food shortage problem by making themselves rich and influential by ruling Ukaizo, while keeping the caste system as is.

 

There's a real difference between Tikawara and Neketaka: In Tikawara, *everybody* is starving, the Roparu are just starving more. Even the Ranga is thin with a hungry, noisy belly.

 

In Neketaka, *ONLY* the Roparu are starving, while the Motaru eat fat. The Roparu live in dilapidated vermin-infest huts in a crack in the ground; the Motaru live in estates on top of a mountain. The Roparu are regularly thrown into a monster-infested hole to be eaten alive for any crime major, minor, or made up; the Motaru are...not. And, again...the Roparu are *NOT OKAY WITH THIS*.

 

The situation between the two islands isn't really comparable. The Roparu are not treated with malice, that's true; but malice isn't required to be oppression.

[Casper]

 

from my prospective the extent of your argument was basically: it's their right to be fascists if they want to, and the situation is fine as is, because it's their job to fix it themselves. even if the oppressed are unable to do so. 

Clearly my definition of fascism differs from yours. But I see this word being thrown at most factions here without much thought.

And also, before accusing anybody of oppression you should check out Indian Hinduism and its relation to their caste system to get a clearer impression of how Huana people view their life.

 

i classify fascism as a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, suppressing opposition and criticism usually with force, directly controlling all industry, commerce, etc. usually backed by racist agenda (but not always).

fairly close to a textbook definition iirc, and if you were paying attention a lot of that was going on at neketaka.

 

---edit

and also within this thread i think i've only used fascism to describe the huana's caste system, and related fields.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Casper

[Aramintai]

In Neketaka, *ONLY* the Roparu are starving, while the Motaru eat fat. The Roparu live in dilapidated vermin-infest huts in a crack in the ground; the Motaru live in estates on top of a mountain. The Roparu are regularly thrown into a monster-infested hole to be eaten alive for any crime major, minor, or made up; the Motaru are...not. And, again...the Roparu are *NOT OKAY WITH THIS*.

The situation between the two islands isn't really comparable. The Roparu are not treated with malice, that's true; but malice isn't required to be oppression.

Again, I'm not defending their flawed caste system. So you don't have to prove anything. It is bad, it should be changed because it can no longer work in current realities of life in the region. But this whole argument started with an opinion that it is not for Huana to change it themselves but by foreigners, namely RDC.

[Katarack21]

 

from my prospective the extent of your argument was basically: it's their right to be fascists if they want to, and the situation is fine as is, because it's their job to fix it themselves. even if the oppressed are unable to do so. 

Clearly my definition of fascism differs from yours. But I see this word being thrown at most factions here without much thought.

And also, before accusing anybody of oppression you should check out Indian Hinduism and its relation to their caste system to get a clearer impression of how Huana people view their life.

 

...you are aware that the Indian caste system is generally regarded as a great evil that even India is desperately trying to get rid of? That discrimination based on caste is officially outlawed in India and it's only maintained through an informal system of social expectations and taboos? And that the caste system as we know it today traces it's origin to British Colonial rule and isn't actually a historical facet of India?

 

Because all these things are important to know.

[Aramintai]

i classify fascism as a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, suppressing opposition and criticism usually with force, directly controlling all industry, commerce, etc. usually backed by racist agenda (but not always).

 

fairly close to a textbook definition iirc, and if you where paying attention a lot of that was going on at neketaka.

Doesn't really sound like Huana and you forgot other major definitions - mass mobilization of civilians, being pro-militaristic and politically aggressive towards other nations. If you wanna put a label on them I'd say Huana are actually more communist in nature than anything else.

[Aramintai]

 

 

from my prospective the extent of your argument was basically: it's their right to be fascists if they want to, and the situation is fine as is, because it's their job to fix it themselves. even if the oppressed are unable to do so. 

Clearly my definition of fascism differs from yours. But I see this word being thrown at most factions here without much thought.

And also, before accusing anybody of oppression you should check out Indian Hinduism and its relation to their caste system to get a clearer impression of how Huana people view their life.

 

...you are aware that the Indian caste system is generally regarded as a great evil that even India is desperately trying to get rid of? That discrimination based on caste is officially outlawed in India and it's only maintained through an informal system of social expectations and taboos? And that the caste system as we know it today traces it's origin to British Colonial rule and isn't actually a historical facet of India?

 

Because all these things are important to know.

 

Did I say I view Indian caste system as good? I said look it up for reference. Because then a person can get a better understanding why the Huana people are accepting to live within this system and not revolting. Though I think it was pretty well explained even within the game.

[Casper]

 

i classify fascism as a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, suppressing opposition and criticism usually with force, directly controlling all industry, commerce, etc. usually backed by racist agenda (but not always).

 

fairly close to a textbook definition iirc, and if you where paying attention a lot of that was going on at neketaka.

Doesn't really sound like Huana and you forgot other major definitions - mass mobilization of civilians, being pro-militaristic and politically aggressive towards other nations. If you wanna put a label on them I'd say Huana are actually more communist in nature than anything else.

 

you're thinking of a specific subset of fascism, fascism itself doesn't require mobilization of civilians, or military aggression. and in my opinion the soviet version of communism was just fascism in a thinly cloaked disguise. the rest of my statement still stands, as i've seen the aforementioned marks of fascism in neketaka myself.

[Aramintai]

you're thinking of a specific subset of fascism, fascism itself doesn't require mobilization of civilians, or military aggression. and in my opinion the soviet version of communism was just fascism in a thinly cloaked disguise. the rest of my statement still stands, as i've seen the aforementioned marks of fascism in neketaka myself.

If you wanna find fascists in the game better look at RDC, I've seen people throwing that label at them already.

[Casper]

 

you're thinking of a specific subset of fascism, fascism itself doesn't require mobilization of civilians, or military aggression. and in my opinion the soviet version of communism was just fascism in a thinly cloaked disguise. the rest of my statement still stands, as i've seen the aforementioned marks of fascism in neketaka myself.

If you wanna find fascists in the game better look at RDC, I've seen people throwing that label at them already.

 

if you're wondering why i'm so confident about my definition of fascism it's because i did a paper about it in high-school spent a lot of time studying (as i'm a bit of a perfectionist), it kind of stuck too.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Casper

[Aramintai]

if you're wondering why i'm so confident about my definition of fascism it's because i did a paper about it in high-school spent i lot of time studying (as i'm a bit of a perfectionist), it kind of stuck too.

Doesn't fill me with much confidence. Come back to me on this when you have a degree in the field.