Shevek

mutonizer: Whether or not YOU play a game to win is totally immaterial. It remains a game and must be both judged and designed as such.

mutonizer: By your rational, one should just give players infinite stats at level one and let them use what they wanted. Why not let players start at any level they like or with as much gold as they like? Look, this is a game. A game is basically a player overcoming challenges. If the challenges are subverted by a poorly designed mechanic then the game (or aspects of it) becomes meaningless. Essentially, if the player were to fail to exploit a mechanic, then he wouldnt be doing his utmost to win and, therefore, the game will have lost intrinsic value and the player would be supplanting that with extrinsic challenge. That would be poor game design. A player should never work outside the rules to add depth or challenge. Those should be supplied by the core game.

The PoE system is good because it avoids the 15 minute work day issue that plagues even pen and paper games (when run by an inexperienced gm). In a crpg, rest exploits trivialize pretty much all strategic (as opposed to tactical) concerns. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?286349-A-Discussion-in-Game-Design-The-15-minute-work-day The PoE system could use some minor tweaking. Mainly, I would double the stamina:health ratio for everyone and rework the ai so it doesnt focus fire as much. Thats really all that needs to happen.

The current system is fine. They just need to double the ratios.

Helm: They didnt promise a BG clone. Get over it. Hey, I dont like the lack of combat xp either but, on balance, Obsidian delivered in a big way. This game has massive potential and most of the changes feel spot on.

There has to be an expansion. People have already paid for it as an addon ($20) to their base KS pledge.

I do think they need to tweak the health:stamina ratios (make the barb 1:16 instead of 1:8, everyone else 1:8 - so double). If they do that plus get the enemies not just to focus on the tank or their first target, then that should increase the amount of time between rests enough. I wonder if theres a text file (like the 2das of the ie games) to do the ratios ourselves.

Again, if the player gave up combat prowess to be able to sneak better when developing his character, then you would be right Gromnir. This is not the case in Pillars. Pillars is not Fallout. It does not have a skill system where a player must craft a sneaky, crafty, talky or fighty character. All characters can fight. As such, xp fairness has no bearing. Instead, he gives up the xp if he sneaks past but does not risk death or loss of health. In this game, that is a legitimate threat thanks to rest resources and ironman modes.

This is a poorly made poll. It creates a false choice. You should have a gradation of options which include options for people who want other type of xp systems, no changes, etc. One choice for other is crap.

I like the Pony Express/Wild West idea but I would go no magic. Ever read Blood Meridian? Fantastic book. Great Western ambiance but no magic stuff.

I wonder if we can just mod in the IE item sketches..

You know because you say so? I bet you were the leader of your high school debate team.

Some of your posts really make me rage inside. Truth hurts

Bg2 has terrible itemization. It full of ridiculously op items that marginalized character development, enemy enchantment to hit requirements that trivialized items (or even weapon types) often before they were acquired and extremely poor item balance whereby party composition was often dictated by players metagaming and planning their party around item drops. I am very happy Obsidian is taking a long hard look at this stuff and making some changes.

Helm: So, the devs should make bows crappy by design and then make players happy when they find 1 special bow isnt completely crappy?

This is easily what i find least appealing about the game thus far. A combat focused crpg whose character dev system is entirely focused on combat that hesitates to reward combat? What the hell... If this game forced players to choose between combat and non combat development (like Fallout or whatever), i could get on board with purely objective based xp as a means to be fair to players who sacrificed offense for a silver toungue or a quiet gait. This is not the case however. As such, failing to reward combat just feels wrong. The choices of class and talents are made purely to inform how best to help the party murder its opponents. As such, the xp system should reward players for constructing a party that executes this best.

Which would mean that the firetooth wouldn't be an awesome reward anymore, because it wouldn't be as special anymore. It would just be another bow that doesn't require any arrows just like the rest of the bows in the game. How do you know? Maybe different bows can have different elemental effects. You can still have a unique fire crossbow but what makes an item desirable shouldnt be it subverting poor game design.

I want combat xp for this game. But your poll is flawed. This is a combat heavy game, so it makes sense to have combat xp. I can definately see a legitimate crpg being made with no combat xp. I just dont thar makes sense for this game. Your poll needs to be reworded.

I dunno. I kinda dont. Arrows suck in the ie games. I was happy to get firetooth just to not have to micromanage that stuff in bg2.

I was not a fan of arrows. They just seemed unnecessary. In BG2, I just went for Firetooth on my Archer even though it sucked compared to Tuigan because I didnt want to deal with arrow foolishness. They took up way too much inventory space and I did not feel compelled to swap arrow types often. If anything, I ended up hoarding a bunch of special arrows and never actually doing anything with them.

"Stuff in Tunnels" was 99% of the gameplay in the IE games (save for Torment, which was mainly about reading). "Stuff in Tunnels" was what character development was all about in the IE games. This is why they awarded combat xp. Example: You talk to Lord Jierdan for two seconds and then send a couple hours in his dungeon. You see a short cutscene with Irenicus torturing you and then you spend 45 minutes running though an intro dungeon. You talk to a couple guards outside a tent for 2 seconds and then you spend 20 minutes in an illusion dungeon. You talk to a priest for 3 seconds, then you are off fighting beholders for an hour or more.

Why cant they let us just move the crap where we want like a mmo? I would like the characters on the side like the ie games. Some folks probably want it as is. Anywho, i hope they make the ui moddable.

So many fetid corpses... its a real shame no one is getting xp for them.

That sounds like a does-not-follow issue. Just because the game spends more time on one thing does not mean it should reward that same thing extra. In fact, the argument could easily be turned right the other direction. Because the game spends so much time on something, it should reward the alternatives. Both arguments are just people trying to argue that their way of playing is better and the game should validate them. Vaguely equivalent rewards bypasses that nonsense. "Vaguely" is my way of being weaselly here. Extra resources, opportunity costs, I think a good designer can make a passionate argument for one path providing a boost over another. And I don't think people are going to count every XP point possible. But when we venture into territory where you need a thief to get all the trap/lock XP and you can murder all the Goblins for about double the XP even thought you made peace with the Ogre Mage for its own XP bonus, then that niggles. But it is only a trifle. I'm beginning to question whether it's worth it. Think of it the other way. What if they made the game that PROMOTED diplomatic and stealth play almost exclusively and every class specialized in a different way of BS'ing your way out crap (it would probably suck, but whatever). What if all talents were about nothing but talking and sneaking too. Would it seem right to you for a player who BS's his way left and right to get the same xp as some dude who just kills crap? If the game was focuses on non combat play, then the player should be rewarded every time he avoids combat. Now lets look at PoE. This game's focus is EASILY killing and all character development is centered around making you a killing machine. The player does not give up anything to develop combat prowess. 99% of the character development is combat centered. The xp system should take that into account. Objective based xp should stay but there is nothing wrong with grafting combat xp onto that as well. To be clear, I would have NO problem with the current system if the character development were entirely skill based and the player had to choose whether to put points into combat or noncombat development. This is not the case, however.

But there are no sneaky or diplo characters in this game. All builds are combat characters. all builds have combat efficacy. however, as this is a cRPg, it allows us to solve quests via sneaky and or diplomatic means. our first encounter with the ogre in the caves were solved diplomatically... or sneaky, depending on how you look at it. should we have been robbed of all xp for quest completion because we chose to complete quest other than through violence? c'mon folks, be serious. HA! Good Fun! You get to not take health damage and then use rest resources. Thats certainly a bonus. Maybe not the best bonus with regards to the ogre but that kinda thinking could certainly come into play in certain situations. I could certainly see that line of thinking being prevalent in Ironman mode. There is also the rep system which suggests the game will offer reactivity if you are known for not being a total thug in all situations. Is it an equivalent bonus to combat xp? Probably not, but so what? Look, if this were a Gandhi sim (or any sim!), I'd be right there with you. If the noncombat stuff were just as prevalent as the combat stuff or if players had to choose between pumping combat or noncombat skills, then you would be 100% right. But this is a combat heavy game where 99% of the character development is centered around making characters that can murder things with great efficiency. I do not see an issue with the xp system rewarding players additionally for succeeding at what the game focuses on.