Master Dahvernas
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Posts posted by Master Dahvernas
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At this point, I tend to agree there probably won't be a patch.
Some of the devs have said they are either working on one, or submitted one to LA... But I think LA knows what a flop this game was (at least on the PC) and now all of their efforts are focused on the Episode III properties and they are just hoping this will eventually "blow over" and we'll just "forget" about a patch. Yeah. Right.
If this is the case then it makes OE look bad as well because even if OE wants to patch the game -- tech and content-wise -- They can't... But gamers don't care who is really responsible for holding these things back and will blame OE since they are in fact the developers. It's a lose-lose situation on a lot of levels, but it is the reality of the games industry right now where big publishers pull the strings.
I'll tell you this:
I am a working adult consumer and will use my pocket book to speak my conscience and I will never buy a Lucas Arts product, OR a UBISoft product again.
These two companies are the epitome of the stereotypical, money-grubbing corporation that doesn't care about its core products, has terrible post-sales support, outsource a lot of their work to foreign nations for lower wages and generally do not seem to care about their customers -- Console or PC as far as platforms go.
I will, however, support companies like Bioware, Valve, Irrational Games and others who not only deliver quality products, but who actually do take the craft of making games -- across all platforms -- Seriously and at least try and offer better post-sales support than I have seen with LA and OE.
There is no more sympathy for companies like OE and Troika who put out crappy, unfinished games and then blame the publishers and hope we'll just continue buying based on "faith" alone. Business is business and since this is how gamers and consumers are treated, I will do so in kind and support those entities who at least deliver finished products and make an effort to communicate with their fanbase who pays their paychecks either directly or indirectly. Period.
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No offense, Mods and Developers...
But the XBox and PC specific forums were better kept separate because of the inherent differences in the systems that the game was designed for and to run on and therefore, will have different problems overall...
Although, in all honesty, I suspect this is a move to just phase out the (percieved) "whinning" and upset vocal posters like myself who are still (niavely) waiting for a patch for the PC version of the game because by combining these two forums, OE has basically said the XBox console version and the PC version are the same game, and have the same exact problems.
I don't know if that inspires confidence in me, or is like the final straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.
I usually don't read things into moves like this (combing forums), but with a lack of concerete information around here, my skepticism is justified to some extent.
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If you're referring to NWN, then yes, that would be one. They made a game and worked closely with the moding community to ensure their game did what it was designed to do: be a platform for D&D enthusiasts to make their own custom maps. It was critical that they kept the people informed about what they were changing to try and foresee any problems it might cause with modules that already existed created by the fans.
I don't think people want a play-by-play of things like you described... BUT I do think people want just a general progress report of some kind. Something other than "soon" is what I am getting at.
Also... You do know that the KOTOR games, both I and II are in fact moddable and have a thriving mod community, right? That is unheard of for a single player only game in this day and age.
Even Feargus(sp?) came to this forum and told us how to ad KOTOR I heads into KOTOR II since a lot of players didn't like the default head selection...
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With all due respect, John: TSL was rushed out for Xbox for the Christmas sales.
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I do not mean to flame, but I am left seriously wondering exactly what you at Obsidian were doing those two months for this to happen. Because it was not polish the game; in fact: In many sections the PC textures are inconsistant in terms of quality.
An example would be the Mandalorian shuttle you use to get from Dxun to Onderon: When the shuttle is docked on Dxun, it will show up as high-res textures with the engine grill clearly visable in the front of the ship. However: when you see the same shuttle in the hangar on Onderon, the same part of the ship will just be a black low-res chunk. I played through this section multiple times, using various nVidia driver versions, and I had all the game settings on highest quality, this issue was reproducable in every playthrough.
The issue itself isn't a big one, but it is symptomatic of the lack of polish TSL recieved: And as a PC gamer I am seriously left to wonder if anything at all was done to the PC version in the two months, since it looked and ran near identically to the NTSC Xbox version I aquired in December. PC gamers were made to wait two months extra; for what, I ask? The PC version featured no additional content, nor bugfixes.
I completely agree with this.
In one of the tutorial pop-ups on the first level, after you wake up, it actually reads, "Use the up and down arrows on the D-Pad to bash the door open". The D-Pad exists on an XBox controller. I know. I have an XBox!
It may seem small and nitpicky, but it is this attention to the small details that generally build up and just make it seem like you guys didn't care about the PC version that much... Which, with console sales being the market leader, doesn't surprise me...But that is still no excuse in my opinion to not polish the game up even in these little areas.
To be honest, at this point, I don't know what else there is to say.
You want us to feel sorry for you for rushing a game that was clearly never even properly QA tested and is in fact a beta-type release as far as technical and even gameplay (Defense stats not stacking!) elements go?
Maybe it wasn't your fault... But you know just as we do you are going to get the brunt of the blame even if it is mostly LA's fault because LA is one of those corporations that "walks on water" and nothing a few gamers like us say is going to put a dent in their "flawless" *cough, cough* reputation. At least as an industry leader.
And for reference, I am a 30 year old, full-time working consumer who does "have a life" and am not some kid who likes to spam forums on his lunch break between first and second period if you're wondering.
I also understand that people like yourself, John Morgan, may have a family to support and that you are only trying to do your best in a business that isn't about games anymore, but about the bottom line.
However, there comes a point to where someone on your end needs to draw the line and say, "Hey. There is no way we can release this game in the time alloted and have it be a quality game. Either give or more time... Or find someone else". Maybe this isn't a realistic solution, but I would at least hope that kind of spirit still exists in this industry (that I have no insider knowledge about; I am just a gamer).
On the flip side... I'm also supposed to feel sorry for corporations like OE who and LA demand $50 for a product that isn't even FINISHED -- in every sense of the word -- And who then have the gual to try and make me (us) feel bad for criticising you on your own forums? Hmm...
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1) STOP SPAMMING THE FORUMS.
2) These are my system specs:
AMD 64 3200+
1024 MB PC 4000 DDRAM
ATI 9800 Pro 128 MB / Nvidia 5900NU 128 MB (switch between the two)
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS
I still get the occassional crash to desktop when I was playing this game (have since moved on). I can run well-coded and graphically more demanding games like HL-2, Far Cry, SWAT 4, Command & Conquer Generals, Warhammer 4000, etc all with relative ease and not CTDs or show stopping bugs.
So, tell me... I must not have good graphics cards, or enough system RAM, huh?
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I mentioned this before on another thread...
But the realities are that:
1) Most people have moved on.
They've played the game through a few times (LS/DS) and since the game isn't finished, there really is no difference between the two endings AND no real motivation to play through beyond those two times. Add to that the game is very linear in a lot of aspects from not just the storyline, but the way you must follow certain Influence paths.
2) It is matter of principle more than anything else.
I know the main reason I am still hanging around is because I paid good money for what is essentially a broken and unfinished game and I want it made whole -- At least as whole as a patch can make it.
This, to me, is the bottom line why I think a lot of posters are still lurking and or posting here and there... But the peak sales and peak discussion about this game are long over.
Good thing Jade Empire (Bioware) is coming out this week so I can wash the stink of TSL out of my gaming head for a while until that patch comes...
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The game was definitely rushed. There is no bones about that.
The story and ending just feel rushed whether you know this (by reading boards like this) or not and this is what has pissed a lot of people off whom don't post on message boards because the game leaves the player with a "WTF?" feeling once it is finished and no game should do that... Even on purpose because if that is the case, the designers should rethink what makes a story driven game work and if they can't figure it out, hire a professional writer/storyteller to help them.
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pfft to the people who say they are done with PC games. yeah watever. ill continue getting them. the Future is INDIE DEVELOPERS!. kotor 2 beaten. now lock in storage for many years to come.
This would be all fine and dandy, but in the real world of PC Game development... Big publishers are "Gods" right now and gobbling up small "indie" dev houses and monopolizing the games market and these small dev houses have no choice BUT to go along with this or they will be shut out of the mainstream distribution system.
I know you'll probably ask... How does Bioware and a few others (Valve; Irrational Games; etc.) do it?
It all comes down how they manage their success. Bioware took the capital from their previous hits and just said, "No. We are NOT going to be held to a publisher and are going to publish it ourselves".
Most of these indie developers don't really know how to leverage the resources they have and often start up with a bad business plan from the start, I.E. Troika is a prime example.
So, while I wish the reality of smaller dev houses was more prevelant, realistically, they also don't have the amount of capital -- both financial and experience wise -- To really do what they want to do in this day and age and we are stuck with a Catch-22.
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To Obsidian-
If you guys could use any help to get the patch out faster I'm sure there are some modders from Holowan Laboratories or the like who would be glad to help to just get it done (especially if it'll restore some cut material). I for one would be glad to help in order to see what the game was supposed to be like. You should just post a thread in those forums and see what people say.
And I guess Obsidian is going to pay these people since they would techically be working for OE.. Or, perhaps LA in your proposal?
What about the fact that not everyone is in North America?
What about International Labor Laws? International NDAs (Non-Disclosure Agreements)? Intellectual property rights? Etc, etc.
Um... Yeah...
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My question to all of you:
How would you handle this situation if you are OE and or LA?
I am not defending OE, LA or the sad state the game is in (it is really a bad port and not a PC version no matter what they say).
I am asking for how some of you would handle this because I think this is a no-win situation to where they are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
OE is damned if they say something... Like they did with the "soon" remark... And also damned if they don't say anything as a lot of people would take that silence to mean OE doesn't care about the product or gamers and this would affect future game sales, I.E. NWN2.
Personally, if OE knew this game had problems... They should have lobbied LA to have a patch ready to go that addressed the major bugs like the CTD, Black screens and other things to at least have a playable product out of the box. Maybe they did lobby LA... But from what I gather reading the Developer Diaries, it appears a lot of them went on vacation after the XBox version was released and I question what they (OE) were doing between then (Dec. '04) and now when they returned from said vacation other than working on NWN2.
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I should point out that in this case the console version of the same game has the exact same bugs and glitches as the PC version. Stop by the Xbox forum, you'll find that the Xbox version runs with a poor framerate and is littered with bugs as well.
While I too would prefer my games to work out of the box, at least a PC game *can* be patched, and despite it all; I do believe it will be, with time. Plus: In the case of KotOR2, having the PC version allows you to install alot of cool mods, that can help improve the gaming experience, and restore huge portions of cut material. Material that would make this game shine.
This is true (I also have the XBox version along with PC).
However... The big problem is that this game has run its course. Peak sales are over and I'd make a safe bet that a good 99.9% of people still posting here (myself included) have already finished the game on both sides (LS/DS) and now could care less.
So, if persons like me could "care less" then why am I still here?
Because of exactly what the first and second posters said:
I paid good money for this game and I want a WORKING game -- Let alone the fact that the game is basically unfinished in terms of its artistic (vs. technical) content as well.
However, the alternative is console games and while I don't have a "PC games are better than consoles" attitude like a lot of gamers do... I will admit that PC games are usually more complex in terms of content due to the hardware that consoles don't have and this aspect appeals to me more than console games per se.
Also...
It makes me laugh when game companies wonder why game piracy is flourishing.
Duh.
KOTOR 2 and other games (Vampire: BL) are prime examples. Who in their right mind -- if they did their reaseach -- Would buy games that aren't finished and that have poor post-sales customer support?
At least if a game is pirated, the user knows they aren't going to get any post-sales support. How ironic is that considering those who actually buy games are left with the same kind shoddy product and post-sales support as those who pirate? Hmm....
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The main reason Nvidia does better with this engine is that it is an OpenGL render-based engine versus D3D -- That ATI excels at.
The integrated graphics chip on an XBox (I have an XBox) is a GeForce 3 equivalent and XBox games use a renderer called Renderware (of all things) that is like a modified version of DX 8.1 that MS developed soley for console games.
Nvidia's new 68xx series solve the "gap" between being good at OGL and also D3D as you can run either API and have about the same results (both good).
I am getting an 6800 GT shortly and mainly because I get sick and tired of having to consciously worry about what renderer a game engine uses and whether or not the perfomance I am (or will be) getting is the optimal one like you have to do now with ATI being strong in D3D and Nvidia OGL. With these new cards, you should only need ONE card and I think that is Nvidia's strong suit right now.
Also, the drivers for ATI keep getting worse (haven 't tried 5.4 yet) and adding more crap like the bloatware CCC that hogs system resources like their is no tomorrow. It's asinine...
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But i will find out when i get to the spot where T3-M4 gets zapped. lol
Part of the problem with these slowdowns is that some of these maps have not been optimized (nor has the engine that renders them).
Want proof?
When you get to the Fuel Depot part with T3 -- Where everything drops to single digits -- Rotate the camera to T3's side (left or right) and make him go forward (toward the control panel he is supposed to access; it's like a tracking shot).
Guess what?
It plays normally with good FPS. But the minute you roate the camera forward (the default, third person view behind a character) it drops into single digits again.
There is only one explanation for this and that is the map itself is trying to render to many verticies in one direction (toward the console) and there is nothing anyone, not even ATI, can do until OE recompiles that and a lot of the other maps as well.
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Also, kindof off topic, but how do u get handmaiden? I went through the whole game and didnt get him/her. I didnt even know about handmaiden until 5 min ago, really unfair...
You only get handmaiden if you are a male character.
Correction: There is actually a Mod on pcgamemods.com that let famel plyers (LS/DS) get the handmaiden instead of Disciple now.
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The only way to get past this bug is rather lengthy process. It is on the Solutions to Problems thread stickied at the top of this forum (I even comment on the method in the very last post).
Basically, what you have to do is ALT-TAB out of the game to Windows, use Windows Explorer and physically delete in-game temp files that are currently running and then go back into the game and leave the Ebon Hawk and it should work.
The problem (as I said in the last post on the thread) is this method resets every single quest you might not have completed if you're returning from a previous trip. If you've already completed these quests... I don't know how that may or may not effect them as I left Dantooine three, four times (for strategic purposes) before finishing everything.
This game is definitely bugged. This is a universal error that EVERYONE, no matter what video card or system spec seems to get when it is time to return to Dantooine and reunite the Jedi Masters. OE hopefully addressed this in the patch, but I have my doubts...
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is why they couldn't release a hot fix for some of the more major bugs like graphical glitches and crashes. THEN hammer out the minor bugs and tweaks n mods and content and all that... Don't make sense... As anal as george lucas is about star wars and it being perfect...you would think he would allow for more than one patch if necessary? *shrugs* dono...just seems odd to me that they would have to tweak minor lil things when there are serious major bugs that are fixed and could be released in a hot fix patch or a temp patch til the full one is out... At this rate im sure someone could crack the source of it and make a hot fix themselfs and release it on the net...kinda like omega did for ATI...lol
George Lucas has nothing to do with Lucas Arts as far as the video game division goes.
It is just his company and is run by others under him. I doubt they even run things by him anymore the way most corporations work. The fact he may be a perfectionist in terms of his fim making craft has nothing to do with the corporate beauracracy and technical aspects of making and maintaining a game -- That's partly OE's domain.
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Have you made certain your video, sound, and motherboad drivers are the latest versions?
If you cannot get the game working at this point, then perhaps I or someone else can send you a save game just after the turret game.
Here is an alternative and beneficial (gamewise) way to play it:
Don't shoot any of the Sith Troopers and let them ALL board the Ebon Hawk.
The reason being that if you can make it past this point where you keep crashing or locking up... You can then proceed to wipe out the troops for like 250 XP points per troop and literally level up another level before you leave Peragus.
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Whole lot of Q&A for the patch, considering we've done all the Q&A on the game unpaid...
This patch better be worth it.
That is all I can say.
It better have engine optimizations, re-compiled maps (if that is the cause for slow downs) and other assets -- Not necessarily added content like re-econded music tracks, or cut-content -- And things that make this worth waiting for because this will probably be the make-or-break patch for a lot of gamers still on the fence as to whether ot not they are going to keep the game and or still going to buy it if they haven't already.
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EDIT: Also, my brother would say that the game is poorly done. (he is a self-absorbed person, he thinks his machine is perfect)
Your brother has a point, truth be told. I don't know if he means artistically or technically, but TSL suffers from both and desperately needs a content patch to restore the ending and definitely a tech patch to correct some of these slow downs and other issues like black screens and crashes to desktops.
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i couldn't find those mercs who fled to the telos planetside, i looked all over the place, checked the map that i had looked everywhere and killed everyone but never found them after they fled
This is definitely a bug. I never ecountered the criminals either. But you CAN complete that sidequest by talking to Grenn and just say you killed them, or they escaped and he'll give you credits and your journal will be updated.
It is a shame a lot of the quests are like this... Half-Complete, but you can actually "complete" it by not really doing anything. There is no feeling of accomplishment in doing so, however.
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The absolute best OGL driver for KOTOR (I & II) is the 4.2 version.
Catalyst 5.3 is terrible overall. Lots of slow downs in games like Half-Life 2 as well as corrputed textures. The CCC is a piece of dodgy bloatware that only makes the decison to go back to Nvidia that much stronger imo.
Guru3d is a comprehensive PC enthusiast community and they have forums specifically dedicated to ATI and Nvidia as well as their drivers and the general consensous is that 5.3 are rubbish. I agree as I am a member of Guru3d and not a beginner when it comes to gaming and or PC upgrades or maintenence, for what it is worth.
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Just out of interest, but has anyone played the XBOX version of the game? (I've not) How much different is it to the PC version? Was wondering if some of the bugs are in the console version too?
I have both the PC and XBox version and I am sad to say... The Xbox version is actually more "complete" in terms of gameplay than the PC version. The XBox version has a few bugs... But they are more glitches than actual show-stopping bugs like crashes and disappearing savegames and things of that nature.
BTW... Consoles are here to stay, so get used to it. The XBox 2 and PS3 are going to be comparable to current, high-end gaming PCs, but with a few less bells and whistles if the propsed specs are right.
Also...
The music is STILL encoded in mono, except in WMA (Windows Media Audio) format since the XBox is basically an MS-type 1999 era PC.
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Apart from anything it would stop us being innundated with threads from noobs whinging about when the patch is due.
I get so sick of the word "noob". It doesn't mean newbie anymore. It is like calling a Black person the N-Word... At least, that is the majority of how so-called gamers use it; to make the other person feel subhuman.
Sorry, but this isn't the Counter-Strike Forum and I just had to get that off my chest...
BTW... I agree that the "Soon" statement was yet another PR blunder -- Even if OE thought it was going to be soon when they put it up. They should have changed it the day the soon period of time actually passed. They desperately need a PR/Community Manager...
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Building on Lee's sollution to a problem:
I got the problem that when I return for a second time to Dantooine my screen goes black after choosing the characters at the exit of the Ebon Hawk.
To prevent this from happening, delete the files starting with 6 and the letters DAN in the gameinprogress map just BEFORE you press the OK button to leave the Ebon Hawk.
You have to ALT-TAB out of the game back to windows, go to the swkotor2 game map where there is a map called gameinprogress and after deleting the files ALT-TAB back into the game and hit the OK button.
It works, but for now I haven't got a clue as to how much it will make a mess of the storyline, because in essence you will have deleted most if not everything that happened on Dantooine before.
[edit]Well ... I just met Disciple for the second time (or is it his twin brother) in the enclave, so deleting games in progress is not a real option either[/edit]
I want to comment on this because I ran into the same bug just messing around with the game... Like QA and Beta Testers SHOULD have when they were getting paid to do their jobs:
I got the same bug when I tried to return to Dantooine the second time. Here is what lead to this situation:
[background: My strategy was to save the Enclave for when I had a lightsaber to make fighting the Lagriek's easier as well as the whole Nar Shadda event chain with Goto and the Jek Jek Tar since I had a Prestiege Class by then]
Started new game, played through Peragus, Telos and then went to Dantooine.
I completed the Atmospheric Sensors sidequest along with the Crystal Cave sidequest to get some crystals for my lightsaber.
I also triggered the "Redemption" journal entry when I purposefully revealed myself as a Jedi to the mechanic as well as reprogam the protocol droid by the ship.
I then left Dantooine and went to Nar Shadda to specifically do the Loota/Aidda sidequest because I knew that Lootra always gives you the final piece of your lightsaber if you're missing it. I complete the quest and got my lens (it can be any part depending on your progress so far).
I then traveled back to Dantooine and got the black screen loading bug.
So, I did what Weakling said... It worked...
But the major drawback to doing it this way is that it resets a lot of the sidequests... Like the Atmospheric Sensors and Crystal Cave... So you can essentially "cheat" and do them over again and the game thinks you're doing them for the first time and you get to keep the loot (crystals, credits)!
I didn't get another "Your Name" Crystal, but I did get duplicate crystals in the cave as well as I was able to do the whole Bao-Dur finds the listening devices in the sensors and up the price to 5000 credits -- Even though I had already done that the first time!
I have no idea what is going to happen once I go back to Nar Shadda. It will be "interesting" -- In that I hope I don't have to do the same thing with deleting Nar Shadda entries in the gameinprogress folder like with Dantooine.
Obviously, the game was never designed to be played this way at all...
BUT the point I want to make is that this game was never properly tested thouroughly and things like these are the direct result and it just screams a sloppy and incomplete product any way you try and spin it.
ATI video cards with KotOR2
in Star Wars: General Discussion
Posted
This brings up the numerous gameplay glitches like Defense bonuses not stacking; upgrades not adding to the weapon/armor once they are upgraded, etc, etc.
These are core game functions for D&D-type RPG and if these aren't functioning... What does that tell you about the game as a whole?