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Master Dahvernas
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Posts posted by Master Dahvernas
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Very good and conscise review, Magus_52.
I agree with almost everything you said. I really don't have much to add that you, myself, or others haven't said elsewhere on these forums so I will leave it at that.
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You will always have people who complain. And not because it is "fashionable" or because they have nothing better to do.
The reason most people (consumers) complain is because they expect quality work for the money they pay... And rightfully so.
The $50 may not be much to most people... But that's just it. It it's not just the money. It is about feeling "cheated" that they spent their money on what is essentially an unfinished and unoptimized game.
Ergo, It's the principle of the idea that game developers and publishers can basically produce crap (no, I don't think TSL is crap), charge an arm and a leg for it, and consumers are just supposed to sit here and take it AND not expect any better in the future.
This is why most people complain.
I support those who are complaining or criticizing in this manner because what's going on in the games industry shows no signs of it getting any better in the next 5, 10 years unfortunately and definitely won't get any better if gamers are just forced "shut up and take it".
Maybe our "rants" won't change a damn thing. Fine. But it does give us a sense of closure to express our displeasure of the product and to actually put new companies (and old like LA) like OE on notice that if the same level of "quality" that was displayed in TSL is what consumers can look forward to in other titles... Then perhaps we will take our gaming dollars elsewhere. It's pretty simple if you look at it like that.
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Truncated ending or no, I quite liked it and found it generally superior to the original, although of course lacking the original's freshness, which was probably unavoidable. You know, unaware of the endings that were excised, I found the ending that is present affecting and enjoyable. It certainly wasn't significantly better or worse than the original KOTOR's ending -- in fact I found the whole Trayus Academy sequence very reminiscent of the battle royale in the Star Forge -- and I liked Kreia's newsflashes of my companions and the worlds I'd visited. The parting shot was poignant and left me wanting a sequel.
For me, they delivered ... but perhaps I'm simple.
I don't think you are "simple". I think that is a very valid opinion of the game.
In fact, I do like the "darker" themes and more in-depth character revelations than the first one... But the fact is they never wrapped those interactions/backstories up that I and many others have a problem with more than the game itself if that makes sense?
Yes. The game is very buggy... But I think a lot of the anger toward OE and LA is the fact that this is becoming the norm for PC Games (vs. consoles) where developers are given impossible deadlines they know they can't meet and publishers ship out unfinished, untested and buggy games just to make a quick end-of-the-fiscal-year profit to put on their Stockholder reports to make everyone at the corporate level feel better to be blunt without any real consideration for the gamers who actually helping BUILD that end-of-year profit margin FOR them.
I think this is the real, underlyng anger that a lot of fans are venting at OE and LA right now... And it is justified to a certain degree.
Ill wait for a patch to come out before I move on.. However If they dont address the many plot holes in the patch I will not be buying or supporting LA or OB anytime in the future. I can deal with a buggy game just not a unfinished one.This is also a legitimate concern. Unfortunately, OE has said there is not going to be any kind of "resolution" to the cut-content and what we bought is what we get, unfortunately...
So again, this point of view is valid and I also share it because the game is just not finished content wise. Period. No ifs, ands or buts.
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Well-said, and absolutely right insofar as me playing DS. I just can't do it.
Though I am strongly light side-oriented, more often then not I do feel the need to "take the fight to the enemy", which is why I identify the most with Mace Windu, the ultimate badass Jedi. It will be a shame to seen him "go down in a blaze of glory", though...
So, yeah, Jedi Weapon Master for me.
So... You would have followed Revan and Malak against the Mandalorians, eh?
Actually, I indentify with that attitude to... But I still feel diplomacy should always be the first option and war the last.
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So what you're saying is that LA spent a huge amount of money on an expensive music score, then made the decision to convert it to telephone quality before giving it to Obsidian for use in the game?
Seems odd, although maybe LA are actually that stupid... Their QA certainly is!
I wonder if they tried to save space on the master (DVD copy) on the XBox since the XBox version also includes a demo of Republic Commando which is like 600-800 MBs and they simply erased that disc usage, but didn't fill it with higher quality music when they coverted it for the PC?
Also, I think the low-quality mono score might have been an actual design choice because all the developer dairies and interviews said the number one thing they wanted to do was free up system memory (all 64 MBs for the XBox) to make the game run smoother than the first one did... That is highly ironic since both the XBox version and PC of TSL runs worse than the first one did (patched or unpatched).
I bet they figured that if they used mono-sound that it would free up not oly the memory but CPU cycles as well. This is the only "logical" (to them) reason I can thnk of why they purposefully decided to use mono and such a low sampling rate.
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For clarification on moardib's test, for digital music, the maximum frequency recorded is slightly less then half of the sampled frequency. So, that would put the top recorded frequency around 15kHz or (more likely) even lower. With Lucasarts (who has the advantage of being part of the company that CREATED THX) doing this recording, its shocking to me that someone at LA would allow this to happen.
Actually, it's worse than that. Go back and read the first post.
Obsidian used LAME 3.93 to encode the MP3s. Great encoder, but the user didn't exactly research proper settings. He used some really terrible custom options, including a 10,900 Hz Lowpass filter. This means everything above 10,900 Hz is gone even though LAME used a 32khz sampling rate. Welcome to the world of basically AM-radio quality people. There's not much left of the high frequencies in these mp3's.
It comes down to 2 things. We don't know why they used such low quality. Saving space wasn't an issue cuz there is 80MB available on CD4. Secondly, they didn't know how to use LAME. Constant bitrate 48kbit/s, 32Khz, 10.9Khz lowpass, Mono doesn't make much sense......that is just horrific quality. It's like they thought they just had NO space left for music (the music directory containing the entire soundtrack is 37MB! lol)
LucasArts/Obsidian: You want to use LAME? Great choice. Next time use "--alt-preset standard" or at least "--alt-preset 160". Thanks.
I wonder if they tried to save space on the master (DVD copy) on the XBox since the XBox version also includes a demo of Republic Commando which is like 600-800 MBs and they simply erased that disc usage, but didn't fill it with higher quality music when they coverted it for the PC?
Also, I think the low-quality mono score might have been an actual design choice because all the developer dairies and interviews said the number one thing they wanted to do was free up system memory (all 64 MBs for the XBox) to make the game run smoother than the first one did... That is highly ironic since both the XBox version and PC of TSL runs worse than the first one did (patched or unpatched).
I bet they figured that if they used mono-sound that it would free up not oly the memory but CPU cycles as well. This is the only "logical" (to them) reason I can thnk of why they purposefully decided to use mono and such a low sampling rate.
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Jedi Master.
"A Jedi's power flows from the force. It is all around us. It binds us. Connects us." -- Master Yoda (ESB).
It's interesting that even though it is an RPG... Inevitably, who a person is inside is going to show through to some degree and dictate how you play the game. At least, the first time.
The KOTOR games are really morality tests in a lot of ways and would make a really interesting thesis if enough players were polled/interviewed to see if any kind of conclusion can be made (like how a person plays this series of PC games determines how they will solve conflicts and various moral situations in real life, or something like that).
It is also interesting to note the strong reactions a lot of LS players get when they try and play DS. They just can't do it (like was mentioned) and it makes them physically uncomfortable... Even though it is just a video game. Hmm...
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As much as some don't want to admit...
The underlying feeling a lot of gamers are leaving not only TSL with, but OE as a company are...
I'm not going to pay $50 to be their beta-testers again.
This is in reference to the one e-mail that was posted that basically says (paraphrasing) "We're made a LOT of mistakes... But we're not going to fix them because we've moved onto a new project. You are S-O-L. But don't worry... We'll be sure not to do that on our next game".
I'm sorry, but that is basicaly what that e-mail says in no uncertain terms.
And you expect people to just "be quiet" about it?!
I agree that there is a difference between ranting and constructive criticism, but I really haven't seen that many rants on the boards. I have seen heated discussion, but very few "Obsidian SUXXORS!" posts since most of the ones I have participated in bring up VALID points and why consumers SHOULD demand better for their hard earned dollar.
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KOTORII by far. I could atleast play KOTOR without it crashing right away.
The Sith Lords.
There are massive performance problems as well as potentially game stopping glitches and bugs -- Telos Swoop racing anyone? Crashes to Desktop? Etc, etc.
The only problem I had with KOTOR I out of the box was the streaming audio problem that seemed to eat up to many CPU cycles (even if you had a separate sound card), but the game was (still) much more polished and stable than TSL is.
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The main problem *I* have with the game is that I think Obsidian fell into "this is great nove/movie/discussion material... But does it make a good game plot" trap.
Let me explain.
The main gyst of the complaints I and others have that I have read on this and other forums is that the game is possibly trying too hard to address to many things... Even if those things are extremely interesting... But doesn't have a solid emotional core at the center of the story to link all the things you do in the game (sidequests; finding Jedi masters; training Jedi) into one coherent plot/narrative.
I think this is the number one complaint that a lot of people have, but don't know how to express it properly.
Meaning, they say things like "I hated the ending", "I was left going WTF?", "I felt cheated" and all of those things are symptomatic of the overall story not having a solid enough base that brings together all of these unique ideas that OE wanted to address.
For example, in the first KOTOR, you have the goal of either defeating Malak and the Sith Armada and restoring order to the galaxy... Or taking over the Armada and ruling the galaxy. That, as simplistic as it is, is a solid foundation on which to build all of the sidequests on. It is also a story of redemption if you play LS and even if you play DS to a certain extent (you are recovering your memories and have crucial points at which to choose which side to take).
TSL has basically.... Well, I can't really say... And THAT is the problem. Yes. The external goal is to find the Jedi Masters and reunite them... But a lot of the character development and internal goals were left on the cutting room floor and thus, the story feels really empty and like it is trying to tackle too many things at once... And possibly those concepts might actually be too complex for a video game as well.
So, to answer the question... Yes and no.
Yes because I think it would have given a more focused and therefore, better gaming experience, but no because I did like the fact that it addresses the real fallout of war and how that ripples throughout life (the force) and those war effects which is often glossed over in a lot of fictional pieces in favor of the "rah, rah! let's go get the bad guys" fevor that often serves as the main thrust of the entertainment instead of commenting on the fallout those events actually have.
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Interesting developments since I last posted.
1) I am glad others picked up on my question of whether or not we should pay for an expansion (should the possibility exist).
Even though it is a moot point, I was like most of you in that I would not pay for an expansion based on principle alone... But if it meant getting a more emotionally satisfying game experience in the end (no pun intended) I would.
2) I am glad someone actually cut through the red tape and got an "honest" response from OE that was posted (the e-mail).
What I don't like is that even though they were honest... They basically said that we were beta testers in terms of the overall game development process and that we all paid $50 for that "privillage" so OE can learn from their mistakes! Grrrr!
That's more than insulting... And I, like you, do understand deadlines and contractual obligations and am not some "internet jockey" who lives in a fantasy world and expects game companies to have all the time in the world to develop games. I just don't know...
3) I completely agree with who(m)ever said TSL should have been released around April or May to coinincide with Revenge of The Sith.
The similarites between the storylines in terms of the war and exile theme are almost begging to be paired together.
Can you imagine the synergy of the dark themes running through both the game and the movie? You can't plan for or even buy marketing like that and would be what is called a "happy accident" on the part of LA and George Lucas.
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Zvonius Ang
I want to thank you for answering my questions.
I want to apologize because I feel I too acted irrationally and jumped to conclusions.
I am sorry for your loss during the war. I think it is terrible that people have to live and experience the things most people like myself only see in movies and video games... And I am not a kid. I am in my 30s if that makes you feel any better.
You are right that everyone is entitled to their opinions.
I just feel that I think some people -- not you -- Are making excuses for OE based soley on their PAST games... That were good... When TSL isn't really that good of a game and that is what we all are discussing now: Can we judge OE on TSL?
I think that not only we can, but that we SHOULD judge them... right or wrong... Because it is the ONLY game this new company has made. If the question was can we judge BI on this game... No. Because BI didn't actually "make" this game. You see the difference?
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Brickyard
I completely agree.
On various threads that discuss the spoilerish ending and just the overall storyline in general... I always, ALWAYS say basically the same thing:
The game brings up some interesting concepts and ideologies... But doesn't address any one of them in a significant way. Therefore, like you said, there is no base or emotional core that the player can anchor themselves in (regardless if you play LS or DS) because there just is not one in my opinon and that is what ultimately is hurting the game because a story without a core is just a series of random events (even if they are technically related by characters, events and locales).
I think the biggest complaint I have is once the Jedi Masters turn on you and Kriea wipes them all out. This comes completely out of nowhere and makes the player feel emotionally cheated -- Because everything they've done has been for nothing, essentially.
It only gets worse from there because once you do track down Kriea and "defeat" her... You are stil left with the sense of "What the Hell did I do all of these things for?" regardless if you are playing LS or DS.
In many ways, I think TSL is trying to justify both the DS and LS to some degree and I don't think you can really do that in such a "morally solid" world that SW has estalbished itself as in my humble opinion.
We all know that real life is not black and white and I love stories that present us with shades of gray, but like you said, even those stories are anchored in some concrete reason d'trie (reason for being) and TSL just lacks this very VITAL element that brings it all together no matter what side you choose to follow.
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You're forgetting that this game was made for XBOX and then simply transferred over to the PC with no changes. People playing on the XBOX will probably not notice the difference, since they are using their tv speakers which really suck.
You don't really know what the XBox is capable of, do you?
It gives you 5.1 Dolby Digital sound if you hook up a home theater system to it. Unfortunately, this doesn't matter in this case because the core music files are in mono... As they are on the XBox I might add... So there is no added benefit of having a high end sound system on either a PC or a home theater with regard to TSL's score...
Which is why a lot of people are upset considering this is the company that supposedly criticized early theater sound and developed their own technologies (THX) to enhance the theater-going experience. Kind of hypocritical don't you think?
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Nobody undestood why the hell the ending is so rushed and incoherent. I hope this will be fixed in the incoming patch.
That pretty much sums it up, unfortunately.
There was just to much cut and development rushed that this is one of those RPGs that literally cuts its replay value in half because even if you play as a DS (if you played LS first) a second time through... The ending is still messed up and the "plot" makes no real sense so why go through it a second time at all?
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It's always the first person shooter fans who want a Jedi Academy clone with the KOTOR series, isn't it?
I know FPS give an inflated sense of ego to a lot of the younger players... But I have grown to hate them because they are rampant with cheaters and everyone wants to be a "gangsta" because they can hit some pixel that looks like a human head on some virtual battlefield somewhere. Sad...
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Yet from the first moment of this game produced by Obsidian Entertainment I was caught in the web of clever dialogues, interesting characters and dark atmosphere. Many say that such atmosphere does not represent the galaxy in a real way, but then again perhaps not many of you have ever experienced war
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Wait for the patch(es).
This game is very buggy and in completely ruins the execution of the (somewhat) engrossing storyline and characters sometimes.
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Hi, My problem is On Telos when completing the mission with B4-D4 where he has to get the info from czerka. When I finish the mission, I talk to the ithorian leader guy like normal, but then when the game puts me back in control of my character, kreia and Atton are gone, no sign of them. Needless to say, this is more than a little annoying after already having put up with the desktop crashing issues, if anyone knows a way to get around this let me know. I doubt this is a hardware issue, but ive attached a copy of my swinfo.txt file it it will help.
THIS IS NOT A BUG
Go to your PARTY SCREEN -- The fourth icon from the left in your shortcuts bar at the top of the screen (the once that looks like three flower petals).
Here is where you can ADD whomever you want to once you complete the B4-D4 mission.
Obsidian should have given you a pop up that said "Party Members Can Now Rejoin Your Party" or something like that because guess what happens right after this?
A major battle at the Ithorian compound (that is actually pretty weak that I wiped every single one of them out with JUST my PC character who isn't even a highly powered Jedi yet).
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My suggestion:
I personally think "Unarmed Specialist" should be taken out of the game entirely because it has no practical use in this game (a game with blasters; lightsabers and swords) and it is over-powered as well in my opinion.
I can do more damage with my PC or NPC's bare hands against a guy wielding a blaster, Vibroblade or even a lightsaber. That's just silly for a lot of reasons, but most notably, I think it may throw off the other stats for the actual weapons when you use them (like Master Flurry; That's way too powerful).
That's just my two cents. Please, no flaming...
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Brickyard
There is definite truth to what you say.
In fact, if you read what I said at the end of my previous post... I too question whether or not added development time would have made the game any better regardless of any deadlines as I think the core story The Sith Lords is trying to tell isn't a particularly focused on.
It brings up a lot of interesting philosophical, ideological and moral questions... Which is always good in my opinion... But it doesn't really seem to follow through on any of them and just uses it like window dressing to hide the fact that there really is no coherent plot or narrative (compared to KOTOR I) and is merely there to distract the gamer from that fact.
You hit the nail on the head when you said the weakest part about the game is in fact the ending and I will add, by proxy, possibly the way the story is told. The strongest parts are the actual gameplay and questing... But that is all secondary in an RPG if the overall, larger story that gives the player purpose of why they are questing and doing all of those cool gameplay things is done well.. Which, in my humble opinion, Obsidian didn't do.
So... Of course people like you matter.
I think more and more people "like you" -- which includes consumers like me who want quality (subjective opinions about artistic choices like story aside) -- Do matter whether these publishers and developers will never publically admit it or not. Especially as narrow and competitive as the PC Games industry (vs. the overall industry that includes consoles and hand helds) is getting for the reasons we're discussing.
However, I am also a realist in that what I said about quantity and not quality is the unfortunate trend that is happening to the PC Games industry and is only going to get worse unless everyone like us bans together in significant numbers and just boycotts companies who put out shoddy work... But that won't happen for reasons too numerous to go into here.
So, what is the alternative?
I say this not to be an ass, but either stop playing (PC) games and find another hobby and or just stick with the developers and publishers who consistently put out polished products and only play those games (which limits your gaming experience)?
I don't mean to be melodramatic... But I think we (consumers) are seeing it unfold before our eyes and unfortunately it will come to this if something isn't done in my humble opinion.
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I thought the Jedi Masters were nothing more than a plot device to get you to go from world to world on your quests.
I realize that any story driven game like an RPG needs goals... But like Maud'Dib and King of Thieves have said...
Their turn on your comes completely out of NOWHERE. This is just bad and sloppy storytelling. This is just Deus Ex Machina-type storytelling.
What is also frustrating is that like others have said at least two of the Jedi Master admit that perhaps they acted irrationally (out of fear; in no uncertain terms) in pronouncing judgment on you and actually WANT you to come back to the order... Then they just go along with the other two and you are forced to kill them.
This comes off jarring and is completely unexpected... But in a bad way because there is NO FRAME OF REFERENCE FROM THE PLAYER'S POV as to WHY this sudden turn is happening. This is why it feels "cheap" and actually does "cheat" the player because there is basically no "reward" for doing what you think is right (for LS) or even furthering your own goals (DS). It is a Deus Ex Machina plot twist that fuels act three -- Chase down Kriea and "save" the Galaxy from her (regardless of what side you play).
This is also why the game is not emotionally satisfying on any level and that is the biggest "sin" any RPG game can make because an RPG is more like a movie/novel than any other type of game and if you (the player) does not come away from it feeling emptionally satisfied... Even if you are playing DS... Then the developers have failed. Period.
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I think games like GTA (Grand Theft Auto) actually give you more of a sense of being an "evil" person in this regard because you can just start beating up, shooting or killing innocent people in the streets for money if you want as well as do other wanton acts of (senseless) violence and destruction (carjack cars; steal motorcycles; etc) that gives you a sense of true freedom compared to the KOTOR games in that respect.
grand theft auto "evil" is thug evil. true evil masterminds (such as what someone like palpatine is supposed to be) wouldnt just start randomly beating someone with a shovel just because he wanted to be "evil".
True.
BUT we are talking within the confines of a game here. There is only so much subtrafuge and conniving one can do before it just turns into the same thing that we are discussing:
I can be nice to an NPC or treat them like a petulant child?
That's not much of an "evil" in terms of gameplay. However... If I could do physical harm to them, that would be the "ultimate" evil given the gameplay mechanics and what we are currently restricted to and that is the reason why I brought up GTA in that respect.
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Obsidian is the developer. They are to blame. Period.
Not necessarily.
Publishers are Gods right now in the PC Games industry. They dictate contractual terms, put up money and basically "hire out" devs houses like Obsidian, the defunct Troika and others to realize their visions in a lot of ways. They also control the deadlines for the projects and retain all copyrights to the material used. Especially, as something like Star Wars.
It is evident from my perspective that this game was given an impossible deadline (from Christmas '03 to Christmas '04; one year). There is no way anyone could have produced a quality (both technical and artistic) RPG of this scope in less than one year. Period.
Unfortunately, impossible deadlines are becoming the norm for developers and this is why a lot of PC Games... Like Vampire: Bloodlines.. Ship in almost post-alpha, pre-beta states to retailers because all the publishers are concerned about is money. Quantity and not Quality. This isn't the 1990s where it was "Games for gamers by gamers".
So, I am willing to cut Obsidian some slack in that respect because I know what this industry is currently going through and it only looks to get worse with big publishers like EA Games and UBISoft gobbling up smaller dev houses to monopolize and "dumb down" (to an extent) the PC and Console games market.
However, I also question some of the artistic content of TSL as well and that falls squarely on OE because that is their department in terms of the development process which is why I said even if the game was given another six months... Would the reception by fans be any different because I just do not think TSL is as good as the first game because it really does not know what story (stories?) it wants to tell and is possbily trying to tell too many, yet doing none of them particularly well.
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i felt like that some times. usually when i was talking to the old lady *can't remember her name*
That would be Kreia. I thought ds was not so good. But I guess when in the first game you get a chance to cut your NPCs up, this time you just be ignorant to them.
In my opinion, what would make the SW RPG experience better when playing DS would be if you could target and initialize violence at ANY TIME ON ANY ONE.
In other words, hit a button that has a function reserved ONLY for DS Players and it targets anyone you want be it a friendly NPC (Party Member), or lets say a common by-stander if you are on a planet and want to mug them for cash for example. Your NPC companions would then react to your actions as people would in real life (favorably or disapprovingly).
I think games like GTA (Grand Theft Auto) actually give you more of a sense of being an "evil" person in this regard because you can just start beating up, shooting or killing innocent people in the streets for money if you want as well as do other wanton acts of (senseless) violence and destruction (carjack cars; steal motorcycles; etc) that gives you a sense of true freedom compared to the KOTOR games in that respect.
I realize that the game would have to be even more closely scripted than it already is to account for the fact that let's say, you decide to kill Atton while on Peragus (the first level of the game)... But actually, it is just another alternative in terms of a branching storyline (A or B; If choose A then C or D; etc.) and while that would exponentionally double the storylines and sidequests for every party member NPC and the driving narrative overall... I think this is where RPGs are (should) be heading with real, emergent gameplay that isn't so scripted and actually gives the player ultimate freedom to really choose their own destiny.
Just my two cents...
How do you get Disciple to join your party?
in Star Wars: General Discussion
Posted
Disciple, believe it or not, is a class 9 (maybe 6?) Soldier. He's actually pretty good as a Guardian... Which is what Handmaiden is if you turn her... If you turn him and think this is why they let females have him (romance aside) as a way to balance out Handmainden for the guys.