SusurrusParadox

Well, speaking for myself as a man, when I am in a game (or on a forum) and I see some guy making a stupid comment to a woman I put this jerk on my ignore list. I don't try to start a discussion with him on why I think he should change his ways because if I did he would probably spam me with expletives. I also really don't see how I should be held responsible for jerks just because - and excuse me for putting it crudely- I happen to have a sausage between my legs and they do too. Not all guys do, so that's not a terribly sound argument. That said, why not? A mild inconvenience (oh no, you have to ignore him when you would do that anyway?) in exchange for making it clear to that individual that his behaviour is not condoned by fellow men? (I think perhaps you underestimate the cognitive effect that social shame can often have, particularly as regards that particular sort of male ego.) In real life, mayhaps. On the internet? Nope - they can be totally anonymous and piss people off, and they get off on that. And the more people show that they dislike it, they more they get off on it. So that's why in the end ignoring them hurts them more. That is a very fair point. I'll concede that. (Though I don't know, sometimes they're not trolling and actually genuinely believe the ignorance they're spouting. Never believe "no-one's that stupid". You will be wrong pretty much every time.) However in that case the issue is then whether the moderation is effective and the proper systems are in place to ensure that something is actually done about it. (Also, very minor thing but: Usually they're pseudonymous rather than truly anonymous. Though proxies can obfuscate that additional data that administrators and sometimes moderators have access to.)

Well aside from judging the forum from one thread, insinuating a moderator is planning to or will persecute him and that there is indeed crude commentary in this place, I guess there is something refreshing there. *ahem* I judged it on at least two threads. (Actually more, but two that I actually paid attention to properly.) So there. (& there's definitely bigotry and crude commentary present as well as derogatory terminology being used in some instances. There's certainly also some backlash, but it's not universal. I mean, case in point: you have a thread about whether women [to identify a single frequently-disadvantaged group] in gaming are disrespected and whether steps should be taken to address that, and if so then what those should be.. yet people are attempting to argue that it isn't the case or the status quo is fine and things will just.. magically sort themselves out? Without any actual action or change?) Though if you'd rather weakly snark in my general direction instead of respond to points then that's your prerogative. I'm well-aware I was being argumentative and confrontational. That does tend to be the case when arguments are taking place. (Would you rather I treated you like a delicate flower? Some seem to be vehemently against anything like that.) As for moderators, well.. based on the available evidence at least one of them doesn't seem up to par. My experience has been that, given any authority, a significant proportion of people will tend to either be inept or corrupt. They're ineffectual or they're abusive. Varies in degree, but that does tend to be the case. (I'd welcome being proved wrong on that.)

He/she certainly shares your self loathing man hating perspective, while parroting your views almost word for word. So Im not surprised you two "individuals" also like to furiously tap each others like button. I'm not self-loathing at all. I like me, and I happen to like being male. What I dislike is people being, well for lack of a better term... phalluses. Also, "they" is a good third-person gender-neutral singular pronoun. Just for future reference. (Pretty sure I clarified my gender in one of the earlier posts actually.) As for parroting, I.. don't think I actually echoed any of.. well I can't see who you quoted but whomever that person is. Similarity present (because we seem to share views), but no actual facsimile. I'd also reckon our typing styles are rather distinct, based on what I've seen. But by all means if you want to fall into conspiracy theorising then go ahead. (Wouldn't my little badge denoting my 'Project Eternity Backer' status refute that though?)

Well, speaking for myself as a man, when I am in a game (or on a forum) and I see some guy making a stupid comment to a woman I put this jerk on my ignore list. I don't try to start a discussion with him on why I think he should change his ways because if I did he would probably spam me with expletives. I also really don't see how I should be held responsible for jerks just because - and excuse me for putting it crudely- I happen to have a sausage between my legs and they do too. Not all guys do, so that's not a terribly sound argument. That said, why not? A mild inconvenience (oh no, you have to ignore him when you would do that anyway?) in exchange for making it clear to that individual that his behaviour is not condoned by fellow men? (I think perhaps you underestimate the cognitive effect that social shame can often have, particularly as regards that particular sort of male ego.)

What does it mean to dehumanise an Amauna? ... de..aumanise..? ... does that work? (Shhh. I was well-aware that human-based language was clearly going to fall down when applied to a non-human sapient.) Anyways, point is that the character looks pretty cool and the class itself sounds really interesting. I particularly love the idea that you take fragments of stories and poems and the like and turn them into real effects. (... no-one tell the tale of Oedipus though. That... I don't see any way that could end well.)

Apologies. I mistyped. (I'm sure the quoted text in the input box had your names switched about.) That said, I do believe the comment still holds true in as much as Gfted1 is complicit in allowing the more crude commentary to go unchecked.

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."? What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you. That was a general comment, actually. You know, aimed at all men? (Yes, all men. There's this thing called responsibility and as members of group [whatever] one should generally take at least some responsibility for the actions of others within that group. Not personal responsibility, but things as simple as "Hey, that's not okay. Knock it off." when someone acts inappropriately.) So yes, Nonek (as a man) should probably speak up when another person that is also a man says something that's incredibly stupid and offensive and reflects poorly on everyone else that happens to also be a man. (That seems like enlightened self-interest, no? If someone does something that's both bigoted nonsense and makes you look bad, you tell them to knock it off?) I was under the impression this thread involved arguments and discussion, not a series of personal conversations between pairs of people. Don't assume everything was aimed at one person just because the bulk of my response was to counter points they had raised. (In other words, "Don't talk it personally".) [Or take it personally, if you prefer the traditional form.] Oh, and the "abusive backwards cavemen" wasn't aimed at Nonek either. I believe he's mistaken and has faulty reasoning, but I don't believe he's backwards nor has he actually been abusive. Wrong, but not stupid. (Again, general comments on the overall thread/forums being included as part of a full argument.) Although I don't know, maybe he does live in a cave and is remarkably sensitive about it. In which case, I apologise & I'm sure the cave is lovely.

I especially like how their first posts ever on the forum are to attack everyone that doesn't agree. Classy. On the contrary, my first posts were related to the latest update. Just because I then noticed a thread about women in gaming and picked up on several users being less-than-respectful towards people for inane reasons doesn't somehow magically make my posts less valid. I don't think it's terribly "classy" to harbour narrow-minded archaic views on whether other people are actually equal and whether they should be treated with some base level of respect. (Although if you think those are "attacks" then that's rather, uh, cute. Heh, if I didn't prefer to avoid being banned and actually was going to engage in attacking others then I'd certainly use less restrained language than I did. I'd also not have gone into as much detail in an attempt to get people to understand.) Also, "you types" ? I don't think you actually know my type, and frankly that sort of prejudicial nonsense from someone marked 'moderator' seems a tad farcical. *ahem* But what do I know, I'm just some newb, right?

And yet the solution you advocate is to have women artificially seperated from men and granted a superior status, if you want women to be accepted hiding them away and treating them differently is not the correct method, a five year old could reason that out Bruce. It will do nothing except exacerbate the problem. No Nonek, I am not suggesting that now we automatically separate every female gamer from all men and they don't interact. I am saying if female gamers want there own space let them have it. But this should be optional. Then men should have their own space also, this is simple equality Bruce, if they have paid an equal amount of money then they should be treated exactly the same in all matters. To do otherwise is inequality, something that should never be tolerated. It's not the same thing at all. There is a huge bloody difference between creating safe spaces for people that receive rape & death threats as well as heaps of general abuse... and making a special club for bigots. (Although, if you want a 'permabanned forever' club for that group then by all means I support that.) That's the thing about equality. Giving a short (disadvantaged) person a box (assistance) so they can reach something (objective) is not the same as giving a tall (privileged) person a box too. They don't need the box. They never needed the box. The existing circumstances are already biased in their favour. It's not about giving everyone a thing and assuming that's "fair". It's not, because that completely disregards the basic definition of "equal". If you don't want segregation, maybe you should be tackling the individuals posting bigoted commentary or insulting women or insulting anyone that even remotely supports making this environment (and others) welcoming and inclusive and safe and friendly and, dare I say it, fun. Isn't that the point? As it is, it looks like abusive backwards cavemen dominate the discourse here. Not exactly an appealing environment for anyone, much less women.

You come off as rather.. hm.. how do I put this in such a way that my post gets "approved" by an unknown moderator... Uhh... narrow-minded, hateful, and opposed to cultural progress and the treatment of fellow people as equals. Unless your post was sarcastic, but I have the unfortunate feeling that it was not. It's nothing to do with special treatment and everything to do with not receiving abuse such as rape/death threats and harassment and general disgusting nasty behaviour from the likes of players that I doubt are very far from yourself. If you really think that being respectful and inclusive and promoting equality and.. not being awful reprehensible streaks of urine towards one another is somehow ruining your life, you probably have bigger problems. Maybe anger management or confronting deep-seated prejudices could do you good.

No. See, what you're not understanding here is that (assuming you are male yourself) men already predominate. What is ensured through 'safe spaces' is that there is a place outside of that for people to feel safe. (The same applies to LGBTQIA groups, or in other circumstances to non-white individuals. It's not about "special clubs", it's about being protected from the abuses and threats that society in general poses.) You don't need a club of your own.Yo You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space. Seriously, the response to "These people don't feel safe in the world at large" should not be "BUT HOW COME THEY GET-". It should be working out why they feel that way and then trying to fix the flaws in the system. (& once you've done that, I think you'll find you will get a "successful mixed virtual society". As well as a much happier and friendlier one, I reckon. Diminished bigotry and abuse benefits everyone, since it shows there's no tolerance for that sort of obnoxious harmful behaviour in the community.) (As a disclaimer, I'm a white cis male that likes women. So I'm pretty much the archetype of the privileged gamer myself.)

Hint: Referring to people as "it" is considered extremely rude and dehumanising. (No, being fictional doesn't make a difference to it being disrespectful to actual people.) Also, for future reference, "they" works as a singular third-person pronoun when gender is: unknown, ambiguous, or non-binary. On topic, the chanter class definitely sounds interesting. I also really like the twist on the usual "cleric" class. To the point that, where I'd normally always play Rogue, I'm kind of interested in the Priest class now. I'd also like to mention that I wholeheartedly approve of the diversity/balance shown thus far in terms of characters. Nice blend of genders and skintones and subspecies. (On that note, I'm rather interested in the Death deity seemingly not having a defined gender. It's nice to see that representation [of a sort] of trans/genderqueer identities, even if it is in the form of a mythical spirit-being. Hoping that if that aspect is explored that it's done well and respectfully.)