curryinahurry

Yeah it's bugged...accuracy is off by 17 on my Eder build after 2.0. You should be 66 (base) + 12 (Tidefall) + 7 perception + 6 Weapon Focus = 91...not sure why you're having difficulty w knockdown. My 9th level Eder build w Saber is at 81 (I think) and he knocks stuff down 99% of the time. You may have a bug? Check the combat log next time you try a knockdown

My point as actually more that if your Eder build is anywhere arund 10th level or above using Tidefall, his accuracy should easily be higher than 73. His base accuracy is 57 + 12 from Tidefall, + 2 from perception is 71, with items, you should be able to get him to 80ish. The issue with spamming first level spells is also, to me, a really lazy design decision by Obsidian. It really throws off game balance and leads to dumber game play. Either way, it's not an issue of Knockdown being underpowered, but of spellscasters getting a bit out of balance from level 9 onwards. Also, slicken doesn't wok the same way as knockdown tactically...not really equivalent And knockdown does scale with int...and crits

^ in the post 2.0 version of the game AI has improved so that enemies don't swarm the first party member they see. An additional step taken by Obsidian was to nerf the Defender defense abilties (the logic being that additional engagements with the new AI is a valuable trade-off for the defense malus). The problem is that in earlier versions of the game, disengagement attacks were also nerfed from a guarranteed critical hit to what they are now...damage that can easily be shrugged off at higher levels. The changes that were discussed in the other thread were to put some teeth back into the disengagement attack for fighters to make up for no longer being the best pure defensive tank. The change would look something like this: Class: + 15% disengagement damage bonus Defender: + 2 enemies, -5 defense (currently), an additional + 15% damage bonus (proposed) Wary Defender: + 10 all defenses except deflection (currently), Status Effect, Hobbled, base 3 sec (proposed) or something like that. The point being that if the intent of the defense malus was to exchange for additonal engagement, then disengagement (at least for fighters) has to be more punitive for the ability to be worthwhile. I hope that makes sense.

You need to Buff with Durance/ Priest. My 9th level dps fighter is routinely at 100 and even Eder is in the high 80s with that + 20 buff. This is one of the problems with the fighter discussion, is without knowing how characters have been built/ equipped, it's difficult to understand where the complaints are coming from. Personally, I think knockdown is currently on of the best fighter abilities along with Confident Aim...the fact that you get it at level one says a lot about the issues with the class.

Based on the discussion in the, "role of the fighter" thread, Defender probably doesn't need to be changed with regards to the defense malus. If Obsidian gives fighters a class bonus to disengagement attacks and that is augmented by Defender (15 and 30% respectively with a status effect like prone or hobbled with Wary), it would make Defender a perfectly viable ability. The game will continue to be balanced so that uber tanks that are one dimensional, or any other god mode builds, will likely be nerfed, so the better route is to think about re-balancing abilities so they make sense within class design and game goals.

Having not finished the game yet, currently I see 2 major problems that I would like addressed in the next game; 1. A revamp of the camping/ crafting system. I would like to see a different approach to camping that is similar to Darklands in that camping/resting becomes it's own dedicated interface. Crafting would only be done at camp sites, inns, or your stronghold. Also, there would be options related to skills like survival that would allow the party to search for ingredients. I would also either do away with camping supplies or raise the limit to 5. In exchange, I would like to see zones for camping red (no go), yellow (chance of encounter) and green (safe). I wasn't sure if I would miss random encounters in this game, but I do, and so do others. There is a certain excitement in the uncertainty of random encounters that makes camping fun. To prevent farming xp, etc. certain penalties could be placed upon parties that are awakened, like fatigue (and no loot drops or xp). 2. Better narrative cohesion and integration of areas. I understand that the megadungeon became a bit of a monster, but I really think this game suffers in act 2 from too many activities that are not integrated. I am only about 2/3 way through the second act, approaching level 10, currently playing the first portion of the expansion, and it feeld like I am playing 3 games in 1. The next game needs to do a better job with this.

It stopped being productive when OP stopped paying attention to criticism to his baseless arguments. I don't see a point in running this campaign to make fighters OP and so i will participate to resist this change. Fighters are in good place now, they dont need any nerfs or buffs Discussions evolve. I'm not particularly concerned with the OP's rant as much as I am trying to get to the root of why people are complaining about the defender changes. It's easy to claim whining, and certainly some people are doing just that. But others have posted a legitimate problem that fighters have which I explained in earlier posts...that the fighter, as a class has no real hook, nothing that they can really call their own that makes the class as a concept come together. What seems to be the root of this problem is that defender was nerfed which made the class less 'tanky' but that is partially made up for by the multiple engagements fighters can amass. The problem in post 2.0 is that disengagements are more common, and since the disengagement attack has been nerfed since its initial version during the backer beta, the additional engagements have less value for the class. The simple adjustment of giving fighters a class boost to disengagement would thus go a long way towards giving the class back it's identity as a 'lockdown' dealer of pain (loosely quoting Josh Sawyer). Right now the fighter can't really lock enemies down, so this small adjustment restores the class pretty well. If you then make that penalty double using Defender and add a possible status effect like hobbled (per Darkpriest, cheers) using Wary Defender, fighters start looking pretty awesome again in a tank role. The other potential area identified as weak in the fighter talent progression is upper tier abilities/ talents. The idea of weapon style mastery and talents are thus suggestions to give more offensive options to the class while keeping the playstyle consistent. While I don't entirely agree with the OP, there has been enough grumbling for me to at least consider there might be a problem, and this seems to be the best path to a solution.

@ jsaving Yes, that is what I and several others have been suggesting. Disengagement attacks in the Beta test versions was very strong (as I stated - auto crit). They were nerfed as the Beta went on into the release version. I think we agree it would make sense to find some middle ground for that. What KDubya suggested in one of his posts was to give a special boost in damage to fighters as part of the Defender Ability. I would extend that bonus to a basic class ability and have Defender give a further boost to @ Brimsurfer If you don't see a point, why participate? Others are having a rational, productive discussion.

Yes, I do the same thing, but you can do this with pretty much any class. I would like to see that fighter get a tweak to make them a bit less generic at this point. Honestly, I think (hope) that this is just part of the back and forth of developing the classes. Looking at the development of the Ranger from when the class was first introduced, the Pet has been heavily de-emphasized in favor of better ranged talents. It wouldn't take a whole lot to make fighters a bit sexier (it hardly needs an overhaul) and no one is really asking for abilities that are game breaking.

What if my idea of fun is having the Wizard class insanely more powerful than all other classes at higher levels? (I actually do love when games have this power curve). The point is, you cannot please everyone. I do agree with the implicit notion that having tamer, more even power curves will satisfy the largest majority, and mods can please the rest. I agree with the changes they made to Defender. The Fighter was unhittable by most enemies before the change, especially when you buffed him more and debuffed the enemies via spells. Fighter is still the tankiest class if you look at every ability in relation to other abilities of fellow party members (heals/buffs from Priests and Druids), regardless of the cherry picking done in the Paladin vs Fighter debate. But like I said in my initial post, Fighter does seem like it needs some small buff to make it more fun to play (a buff to their crowd control abilities' accuracies which would scale with their might is what I proposed). The line I highlighted is the point I was making with regards to what Obsidian is likely aiming for with the nerfs and buffs; they are trying to balance the desires of 600,000+ game owners. Our individual desires aren't particularly important to them unless we are part of a significant and vocal group asking for a change. With regards to the change in Defender, the issue to most asking for an adjustment isn't just that the nerf makes the fighter less appealing as a tank, it's that it removes an aspect of the fighter's core identity. Now that the fighter is no longer a god mode type defender, there is no 'hook' for the class when compared to others. I don't really mind the change, but I do agree with others that it strips the fighter of its identity to some degree. That is why there have been suggestions like making fighters better at disengagement attacks or weapon mastery, as those fit within the theme of the fighter, and also give it class hooks; lockdown defender and martial expert. When you think of it, it's really no different than giving the Barbarian carnage, Ranger godly range skills, or monks super prowess when attacking unarmed. BTW, when the beta first came out, disengagement attacks were automatic crits, but the wailing from a group of the IE fans was so loud that Obsidian nerfed it. No one is asking to go back to that model, but giving the fighters a class based 15% extra damage that bumps to 30% in Defender mode is both a good compensation and thematically appropriate.

^ The whole point behind balancing is that something that is trivial for your enjoyment of the game may be very important to someone else. Also, building new 'fun' talents are sometimes dependent on whether earlier talents in a style or progression are worth taking; defender + wary defender is the most talked about in this thread, but we can also look at weapon spec./ mastery and weapon style as well (which is currently a one off but could be the basis for its own mastery/ talent). That is sort of the point behind this whole thread, the fact that with tuning to other classes and the nerf to defender, the fighter's role has become a bit nebulous in party composition. It seems a good time to make adjustments.

That's a good way too give the class of fighter as a defender a hook, I agree. However it's done, it's the type of niche that could scale or have add-on talents like debuffing or status effects. The other thing I think fighters should get, in way of defining the class is an additional mastery in weapon style (2h, sword & shield, etc.). They should also get a high level ability that becomes accessible in the weapon style mastery they have chosen. This would reinforce the martial aspect of fighters while allowing for more offensive/ defensive prowess. This was actually something that was discussed when these abilities were first announced in updates and there were quite a few good suggestions around the concept.

Disengagement seems to have been weakened since the beta. I think the old disengagement was an almost automatic crit...which caused a lot of complaining from the beta community (at least one group). As a compromise, maybe a less punitive but still meaningful damaging effect could be attached to disengagement...to bypass DR or confer a status effect like Hobbled. Hobbled (or slowed) for a base 3 sec would be a good trade-off now that I think about it.

^ Not that I really disagree with your assesment, but you seem to be disregarding some very critical fighter abilties: Tanking: Engagement, Defender, wary defender+ Hold the line...That's 5 engaged min; and that will only become more important as more patches come out. Unbending and Unbroken aren't bad either (although Unbending should be per encounter) Offense: Knockdown + disciplined barrage = effective +20 damage, armored grace = 7 attacks for 6 against any other class wearing the same armor (add this to a high dex fighter + potion of power and you will do plenty of damage. Add interrupting blows and a lightly armored fighter wielding a greatsword will almost never get hit one on one). Crowd Control: Clear out and Into the fray...into the fray is underrated in my estimation, and I've manged to pull enemies even at max engagement with Eder. Team Synergy: Guardian Stance. Also, because of abilties like knockdown and clear out, fighters work extremely well with Rogues Priests and Ciphers (the latter because they can inflict staus effects that can keep enemies down for really long periods or turn a particularly tough opponent while stunned). Again; do I think Fighters could use a bit more? yes, especially after level 7; but they still are a very strong class.

My 17 int fighter (with bonus items) routinely crits knockdowns for 10 seconds...so most creatures don't get back up after they've been knocked down. I dumped Resolve and that only to 7 so it's routinely at 10 with items. for an off tank I would dump con or resolve before Int, but neither to 3. Concentration is valuable, but there are items that can counter both in making resolve and straight concentration. Personally I think dumping stats to that level will ultimately be impossible and even now I think it's a bad idea, but ymmv. Lot's of different approaches, and I'm mostly looking at what the OP said about not wanting to dump any one stat completely.

Yes...from what I remember. I don't really use them anymore as they are pretty underpowered (maybe there is a way to build really strong traps, but it doesn't seem worth the time to investigate). I find the various priest 'seal' spells work much better.

I wouldn't dump intellect in a DPS fighter build, between prone and disciplined barrage you get an effective +20. Add armored grace, decent dex, and a hasted aura (like the one the chanter grants), and on a crit knockdown you might be able to get off 4 attacks while your enemy is prone.

If you go that route, you might want to do a Str, Per, Res, build (perception for to hit and resolve for a bit extra defense), alternately, you can exchange int for resolve if you want to do a knockdown build, but Res will give you more conversation options. One thing to note about the various checks is that they won't always be the choice you want to make in a conversation. There have been a few times (3 or 4) when I have gone with a non-skill related answer because it fit my line of thinking better. This game isn't geared around skill/ attribute check for the win.

Possibly...I need to play more to see if that is really the case, but I definitely noticed that most battles on level 7 and 8 followed a similar pattern of; first wave swarming Eder, ranged going after casters/ ranged, offtanks getting overflow and 2 or 3 that would go directly for backline with enemy casters often trying to down durance or disable my PC fighter. BTW, this would happen in any fight were the enemies have line of sight to the back line...distance doesn't seem to matter that much TBH, it's easily the most fun I've had with the game. I have been playing slowly because of time constraints and my interest was flagging when I did have free time because the fights were pretty simple. Now, I'm finding I actually have to switch weapons, use escape techniques for the squishies, move to intercept incoming baddies, use spells that I didn't use much prior to 2.0 (defensive, mostly) etc.

He has both (and maybe hold the line?). I believe his limit is 4. In contrast, my PC fighter with no defender, never got more than 4 on him, even when he was up front. Pallegina, I haven't seen get more than 3 baddies on her playing level 7 and 8 after the 2.0 patch. Another thing I noticed was that the Adragan and several of the skeletal wizards would try to petrify/ confuse my pc...not sure if that is because he has highest accuracy in party or it's something else.

I just finished the 8th level of Od Nua and these a few behaviors I noticed (party of Eder- Tank, PC - DPS Fighter/offtank, Pallegina - Support/offtank, Kana - support, Aloth, Durance; playing on Hard): 1. Fampyr would make beeline for either Aloth or Durance, even disengaging from Eder to do so 2. Fampyr would charm closest caster unless defenses where up. If that is the case, would do as 1 (above) 3. Durgal would swarm Eder, but after 6 (4 + 2 for flanking) additional would seek out other targets 4. Skeletal rogues beeline for back line 5. Skeletal Wizards often targeted Durance So, it seems that AI is definitely seeking out targets in a more intelligent manner, seeking advantages like flanked status, and using abilities with a bit more discretion. I don't build strictly defensive tanks, so I can't say that it's worthwhile, but the way I have Eder set up (90ish defense pre-buffs with about 15 dr) and decent offensive capabilities is pretty handy. He does pretty solid damage on disengagement attacks and on more than one occasion interrupted a Fampyr trying to disnegage and go after aloth, and that gave me time to have Eder hit it with a knockdown...and that was the beginning of the end for those Fampyr

Not really, I'm not worried about my tank doing damage, I'm worried about him keeping the enemies heavy hitters busy while my ranged back line and melee fighters take out their squishier/more dangerous fellows. But, Engagement is the ONLY thing that keeps an enemies attention on your tank and it seems the only way now for them to be effective is to do damage. But, if they're doing damage their defenses must be lacking which means their ability to stand toe-to-toe longer than the other guy is compromised. Honestly at this point, I'm gonna try a Pale Elf Barbarian with Cautious Attack, Hold the Line, a few of the elemental damage Utility talents and with high Perception so his attacks will actually land. I'll have to look at the numbers next time I play, but I'm currently using Eder as my main tank (playing on Hard) and with buffs etc. he's doing fine with regards to Disengagement attack (currently level 8 party). What I'm finding in 2.0 is that I have to switch from ranged to melee with Pallegina and Kana more often because of AI behavior.

That's fair, but it's hard to know what people are complaining about without knowing how builds are being put together. I might be assuming the worst, and certainly, the idea of building around a defensive character that can handle disengagement is viable, but accuracy will have to play a role in that equation so the dumping of xyz stat to pump resolve, con, etc.and wielding hatchet and tower shield will be filtered out by obsidiian in the future. That was my point. I also think that 2.0 is part of the ongoing adjustment of the game to create more balance, but it can also provide more opportunity for the kind of builds you are proposing. i think it might be be worthwhile to propose abiltiies/ talents for future iterations that allow for the type of build you're lookignfor that don't run counter to what Obsidian wants for the overall structure of character building. Two examples could be like; 1. A talent that does + 20% disengagement damage at a -5 to hit, or 2. a Trip talent that knocks (+10 vs reflex) disengaging opponents prone at a 5 second -10 penalty to defense.

^ So this is about people building defense only characters and then wondering why they can't hit/ damage anything? I hate to be the one to break the news, but expect more of these types of changes in the future. The whole point behind the attribute system was to make all attributes viable to all classes; the corollary result being to make min/ maxing less viable. Niche builds will still be possible, just not invulnerable or fool-proof (possibly).

I'll be interested to hear what people say about the nerf when they start a new game vis a vis survivability of defensive oriented fighters. I don't think the change will have much effect after a certain point in the game, but it may be problematic early game.