Colrom

Sorry.

I went looking for a few words about violence in the Book of Revelations since I noted that the bit I found and posted earlier neglected to include advocations of violence from Revelations - and there is certainly plenty to mention. Revelations is cast in the future and is clearly taken by many as a guidance for their current and future actions. So it is certainly relevant. While looking for a serious commentary I found this - which while not serious - and having some flaws - certainly captures the gist of the matter with tongue in cheek. Here:

Hmmmm. Maybe not such a good idea.

I found this - for your entertainment: Koran "Believers ... shall slay and be slain. It is a promise ... in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. -- Quran 9:111 Pope Benedict should have known better. When it comes to holy war and other "evil and inhuman" things, the Bible and the Quran are pretty evenly matched. * Here are some evil and inhuman holy war instructions from the Quran. Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out ... if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:191 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you. 2:216 Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward. 4:74 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. 4:89 If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant. 4:91 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. 5:33 I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 8:12 When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw. 8:15-17 And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. 8:59-60 Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 8:65 It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. 8:67 Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 9:5 If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief ... Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them. 9:12-14 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. 9:73 Believers ... shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. 9:111 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. 9:123 Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks. 47:4 *And here are some from the Bible. The Bible The Lord is a man of war. Exodus 15:3 The LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation. Exodus 17:16, Deuteronomy 25:19 And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people ... So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land. Numbers 21:34-35 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And they burnt all their cities.... And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:1-18 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Deuteronomy 2:33-34 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2, 7:16 If thou shalt hear say ... Certain men ... saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known ... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:12-15 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it ... And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. ... But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them ... as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Deuteronomy 20:10-17 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses. Joshua 11:20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9 He teacheth my hands to war. Psalm 18:34 That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same. Psalm 68:23 Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34 He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36 *So which holy book wins the Pope's holy war contest? I guess it depends on who is keeping score." Posted by Steve Wells at 9/18/2006 *Edited for clarity by meta*

Wait for the Wagon :joy: By G.A.S. (Boston: Oliver Ditson, 1854) [This song originally appeared, with slightly different lyrics, in 1851. In that year it was published in New Orleans by Wm. T. Mayo (and credited to "A Lady, Music by Wiesenthal") and also by two different Baltimore publishers: F. D. Benteen (who credited it to Geo. P. Knauff) and James E. Boswell (who identified its composer as W. Loftin Hargrave, and added a subtitle -- "A New Ethiopian Song & Melody."] Will you come with me, my Phillis dear, to yon blue mountain free, Where the blossoms smell the sweetest, come rove along with me. It's ev'ry Sundy morning, when I am by your side, We'll jump into the wagon, and all take a ride. Wait for the wagon, Wait for the wagon, Wait for the wagon and we'll all take a ride. CHORUS: Wait for the wagon, Wait for the wagon, Wait for the wagon and we'll all take a ride. Where the river runs like silver, and the birds they sing so sweet, I have a cabin, Phillis, and something good to eat; Come listen to my story, it will relieve my heart, So jump into the wagon, and off we will start. Chorus.--Wait for the wagon, &c. Do you believe my Phillis, dear, old Mike with all his wealth, Can make you half so happy, as I with youth and health? We'll have a little farm, a horse, a pig and cow, And you will mind the dairy, while I do guide the plow. Chorus.--Wait for the wagon, &c. Your lips are red as poppies, your hair so slick and neat, All braided up with dahlias, and hollyhocks so sweet; It's ev'ry Sunday morning, when I am by your side, We'll jump into the wagon, and all take a ride. Chorus.--Wait for the wagon, &c. Together on life's journey, we'll travel till we stop, And if we have no trouble, we'll reach the happy top; Then come with me, sweet Phillis, my dear, my lovely bride, We'll jump into the wagon, and all take a ride. Chorus.--Wait for the wagon, &c. http://www.iath.virginia.edu/utc/songs/wav/waitwagon.wav

The Germans couldn't have succeeded with the Schlieffen Plan (or, at least, the Moltke-modified incarnation they implemented) and the trenches were inevitable in a time where infantry was the chief ingredient of an army. The only thing interesting about the pre-stalemate war was troops walking along roads. Marching and time tables for trains somehow doesn't equate interesting strategy to me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree that Moltke's implementation was flawed. But what would have happened if they had not drained units to the east? Or given the Prince units to be agressive with and permission to change his stance. Damn prideful fool was supposed to be the hub. His job was to stand there a be tough! He just couldn't do it! He wanted a piece of teh glory. I am over and over driven by events to conclude that the same personality traits that drive people to wage war make them wage war badly. I like the marching and stuff. That marching and train transport and that stuff is the most interesting part of war! The fighting is just the equivalent of picking the captured pieces off the chess board. :D Caveat: I'm talking war here - not occupation. That's different and much harder.

I expected somebody was going to give me Dark Crusade during the holiday - but no-one did. I hear it is good. I will have to buy it soon.

WW I would be interesting on the "west front" in the beginning, before the French counter attack and stalemate. Also the "east front" would be interesting in the beginning. Interesting movements of troops by train. Quite nice tactical stuff. And then again at the end it might be interesting. I wonder how the Russian Revolution and follow up would play as a game. All these things would be better turn based. I got my older son Mark of Chaos. Although there are flaws (Why can't they do warhammer right?) it seems like it might be fun. His reports so far are good. I'm looking forward to the CC3 remake (with Real Red?) and the remake of the Talonsoft Campaign Series - from Matrix.

If they don't profess it openly, how can we be certain it's so popular? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Can't be sure about folks believing the two god heresy. But there is alot of talk about ridding the world of evil here and there and questions about whether a war was worth it with an implied good vs. bad calculation or calculus of some kind. It is a matter of interpretation. Some of the Christian fundamentalists defintely have a story that suggests a two god version of events - although they deny it when pressed - but seem to go back to it when not pressed. I'm not sure folks really believe the heresy either. My experience though is that if I attack its' logical underpinnings the uproar is ferocious. I almost think that people have more confidence in evil than in good. Perhaps you have a better interpretation or different experience. Maybe utility theory rules. But that requires belief in a value scheme. Where does that come from? Is it all positive or both positive and negative. I don't see much emphasis on positive values though. Maybe it is all negative? Yikes, the Cathars are among us again! Happy New Year. Peace.

I don't know where all this speculation about weapons of niceness has come from. I would certainly be dismayed to kick the ass of anyone who chose to attack me but I would do it anyway! :D I know that makes you feel better. Really, you can count on me to cover your ass - provided you are in the right. Which is more than I would expect from some here. Sorry - but it's true. :D But what many seem to want to do is go out into the world and attack other people because they are afraid about the future or because they want to steal other peoples things. Or because they have visions of glorious victory! (w00t) But mostly because they intend someone else to do it for them. I am supprised that anyone would back up killer cowards or killer thieves or glory killers. But then, they usually arn't themselves in any danger. It is their hirelings that take the risk. Go figure. I really don't believe that any of that killing - your killing - my killing - eliminates evil. If you think otherwise, please keep us all posted on how evil is diminishing as you attempt to kill it off - and don't forget to include your own record of causing harm in the accounting. As an aside, there seems to be a general requirement by many that a moral code must be shown to be effective. Ah, this would be utilitarianism. Go out and harvest those organs young Jedi. Or perhaps folks require a quid pro quo from God before they will grace him with their belief? "I will believe in you if you can show it will work out well for me!" By the way, I am not born again. I think such stuff is nonsense. But perhaps no worse than some of the stuff we regularly see here. It is dismaying though that some would try to gather a virtual crowd to ridicule the born again Christian. Sorry. You will need to look elsewhere. Happy New Year! Peace!

You need to improve your reading comprehension. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> :angry: The writer is correctly limiting her conclusions to the what that particular study can show. There are other studies that indicate that ability to be deceptive is actually considered an asset for leaders in many cases - and is a selection criteria of their followers. I suppose I could dig that correlation up too. But so could you.

Right, so because it offends your sensibilities and YOUR ethical framework, WE can't discuss it? So you are okay with killing someone who has a gun to your head, even though you don't know if they are going to kill you, because you can't predict their future actions, but a country can't intervene in, say, Sudan to prevent the genocide in Darfur, or in Kosovo ? Your position is untenable. Hence why I am calling you on it. Or do you need God's spokesperson to tell you who is evil, so that you have permission to kill them? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Of course you can discuss it. We are discussing it. There you go again - completely misunderstanding. Are you really trying to paraphrase or are you being deliberately obnoxious. I don't believe that people are "evil" so I don't expect "God's spokesperson" (Whoever that might be.) to identify the "evil" folks. Why are you so passionate about this? We are talking about killing here - not something nice.

Try this: (One of the studies I was remembering. There is a more recent one.) The same psychological skills that give leaders great self-control in times of crisis also make them skilful liars. 'The most convincing liars were the same people who emerged as the leaders of the group' Caroline Keating of Colgate University asked a group of adults and children to drink a sweet-or bitter-tasting beverage and then tell an assistant that it tasted good. Among both adult males and children, Keating found that the most convincing liars were the same people who emerged as the leaders of the group during a staged 'crisis', or in the case of children, in play groups. Her work is not meant to show that leaders lie their way to the top, says Keating, but it does suggest that it is no accident that a former actor is regarded as one of the most persuasive leaders of the 20th century. In addition to lying persuasively, looking middle-aged and male will also advance your leadership career. As in nearly all primates, an important element of a leader's persuasive powers lies in the basic physiology of his or her face. In one recent study by Allan Mazur of Syracuse University and sociologist Ulrich Mueller, for instance, college students were asked to rank the 'dominance' of more than 300 pictures from the yearbook of the 1950 graduating class at the US Military Academy at West Point, N.Y. In nearly every instance, those cadets who went on to become generals were those who were judged to have the most dominant-looking faces. Research by Keating reveals that around the world, the facial features that are most associated with leadership - thin lips, eyes that are small in proportion to the face and receding hairlines - are also judged to be the most attractive in males but not in females. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Extract from an article in the US News & World Report (November 2nd '92) monitored for the Institute by Roger Knights.

It is actually the result of a psychological study. I will try to find it for you. Results about the agressiveness of prefered canididates are interesting too - but more situational - and from a different study. I suggest you not go about attacking me.

Meta - I have never yet agreed that your paraphrases of my meaning are correct. You should be doing much better at it by now. It's not like we have never discussed these types of issues before. Maybe you should just focus on what you believe. Maybe you will convert me.

I think it always is right to defend yourself and - if you have the proper authority - to defend others from clear and present danger. That includes killing those who present that danger if necessary. We were talking about killing evil - and whether that is possible. You seemed to think it was. I don't. You were attempting - so far as I could tell - to establish that pure (good enough for government work) evil could be identified and killed and gave some examples. I am simply arguing about the pure evil premise. I am not saying you can't fight them if you have the right authority and/or are personally endangered by them. I have have a problem with your rationalization about evil because it degrades God and it can lead - and usually does lead - to rationalizing assassinations of people who do not present a clear and present danger - the assassinations often being carried out by people who really do not have any more rightful authority than they can claim ad hoc by virtue of their possession of large size or good weapons. The critical component of their thinking that turns them into murders is their assumption of authority to evaluate whether "the world will be a better place" with someone dead. This involves prediction of others behaviors (usually focusing on those behaviors the are not liked and ignoring other behaviors) and evaluation of the future goodness of the world in various cases (quite a feat). I believe it is OK to kill to eat and in self defense and such - but not "in order to make the world a better place" or to "remove evil". Given how embedded the other way of thinking is I can see how someone who is more accepting of killing might get confused about my views and imagine that I am a pacifist. This could be a dangerous view for them and me and I want to discourage it. It is a bit sad that I need to explain that I am prepared to kill in order to gain understanding. Is that clearer?

Atheists are among the least trusted minorities in the country; I'd be very surprised to see any get elected at all. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In general people tend to support those they think lie most effectively about important matters. In the US, this pretty much eliminates folks who are forthright about being atheist. But liar atheists who pretend effectively to be religious are no problem.

Realizing that there are people that only understand (or at least, respect) force does not make you one of them. But thanks for the fallacy, anyway. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Characterizing people as evil and predicting their future behavior under all circumstances (don't (Didn't? Won't?) understand anything (Really? Anything?) but force) is an interesting combination of fantasies which you do not seem to have any problem with. How about . Is that better?

We have been here before. evil = evil +1 Will you soon be going out into the world to attempt to kill all those (evil) people who don't understand anything but force (looked in a mirror lately)? Trixy Pixie says its OK for me to suggest you might do such a thing. Anyway, if you go, please write regularly to tell us how it is going. :D

Nonsense. Why in world would he believe I thought "That the coalition is some sort of evil invasion force trying to kill Iraqis just because they have a surplus of munitions?" :crazy: Bah.

Mmhmm. Lovely fairytale. I'd say Idi Amin or Pol Pot, to name just TWO from the last few decades, are pretty good examples of EVIL. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Certainly they did what we would all call "evil". One of the more fundamental issue is about how many gods you want to have. If evil can be perfected then it is reasonable to suppose there is an evil creator which reflects that perfection and provides a source for evil events. This gives rise to the ever popular two God system - God vs Satan - with each having armies and waging holy war. Certainly this is convenient in some regards because then the good God is absolved of all responsibility for the unpleasant and ugly events in the world. But Jews, Christians, and Muslims are supposed to believe in just one God responsible for it all - the good the bad and the ugly. On a more generalized basis I have not yet heard of a "evil" person who has not also done something that folks would consider good. If you kill them you lose it all. A whole lot of evil and a little bit of good (See how I begin to assign values so that I can use utility theory in the subsequent rationalization.) I guess you could claim that killing them is beneficial on the balance. (Just plug the numbers in and turn the future projected outcome calculation over.) The outcome is even better I imagine if you use their healthy organs to save the lives of several decent people! (Just kidding!) Another fundamental question is whether you can diminish the "quantity of evil" by murder/execution/killing. Doesn't seem to be working so far. I'll trade you my fairy tale for yours! :D In D&D it is not much of a problem - except in how we blend it with our personal beliefs - since the system pretends that perfect evil exists as well as perfect good (and perfect law and perfect chaos) - although there is only Ao. By the way, I don't want to hijack this thread. I am interested in what other folks think about the original topic and related - just in the context of D&D - without getting too sidetracked by these other considerations. Unless folks want to go there. We could start a separate thread about possible new morality/ethics systems for RPGs.

I was just adding additional media input and opinion to the thread. People need to take it all with a grain of salt. By the way, it is rediculous to put absurd nonsense like - "That the coalition is some sort of evil invasion force trying to kill Iraqis just because they have a surplus of munitions?" - in other people's mouths. :crazy: I suppose I could do the same to you but we would then just wind up weaving a fairy tale of hateful nonsense. :crazy: Which may suit your purposes - but won't suit mine. :D

Ride the Lightning - Metallica Messiah - Handel Masters of War - Bob Dylan Bohemian Rhapsedy - Queen Lilie Marlene Rally Round the Flag Dixie

By the way, I post the whole text because links and such sometimes fail to work and stories sometimes change over time.