Humodour

What, even taking into consideration that fact that quantum mechanics is the government of the macroscopic world? Seems far-fetched to me. Causality doesn't imply predictability (determinism). Causality implies "if I do this, something will happen". It makes no assertions about what will happen. Istama: Like TA said, free-will is a combination of the illusion of chaos and non-determinism in the universe (and an illusion that will forever hold true for humans). And in the case of humans there is actually a strong case for true non-determinism re a multitude of various stochastic processes in the brain (from sensory input to metabolic equilibria to electron flow).

Well, I was going to wade through your last post to me and try again to explain how I personally define the differences between a RPG, and FPS and a hybrid... but your comment above proves that you're not really interested in my views on the subject in lieu of my brain function problems. So I guess we'll just have to disagree. I edited it before you posted to clarify my point. It was along the lines of "if you couldn't see how Deus Ex was different from a typical shooter then you've problems". Kinda like somebody saying humans are as dumb as other mammals because they act like other mammals (fight, reproduce and eat); a pretty nonsense argument. This isn't a shouting contest. If I came off as rude, that was unintentional; I'm just slightly passionate about the topic. It shouldn't have any bearing on your own argument, however, and I'm sure the other posters would like to hear you side of things. Ignoring my previous posts, I would still like to see you basic argument for or against what makes an RPG, for example.

Anybody who felt Deus Ex played like a shooter has brain function problems. It has to be one of weirdest shooters I've ever played. On the other hand, it certainly felt, looked and played like a typical (good) RPG. I rather have a story and dialogue system that is very deep and immersive for both genders than have limited character creation options. The idea that the story and immersion will suffer because both genders are catered to is an antiquated notion that has been squashed by modern CRPGs. Want proof? Play Mass Effect. I haven't heard anything special about Mass Effect. I heard it was a good game with a good story, but that it was too short and limited in many ways. It's a fairly well known concept that the more you limit character choices, the stronger the story you can tell. It is the reason the storyline and plot in computer games isn't as intricate and complex as the better books out there; some story complexity is traded for greater player choice. I think it is self-evident to anybody who played PS:T how pre-determination of gender allows for twice as much backstory, for example.

Agreed, on both counts.

See, I don't think this is possible, and I'm not sure it ever will be. Try this: take a 'snapshot' in time of your current desktop computer. How do you do it? Well, you could probably supercool the ram and then store that (security measures exist to prevent this, but a university research group has proven these measures fail completely at low temperatures). That's the current state. Then you need the contents of the HD. That's the storage. Then, arguably, you need a detailed and completely accurate blueprint of the hardware the machine is running on. It would be hard to impossible to transfer the RAM 'snapshot' to anything else. OK, that's actually doable, right? Sure, but PCs have only processor typically, do things in COMPLETELY sequential order, are a closed system (inputs limited and controlled), and only have 2 states: on/off and high/low. The brain is, in comparison, a network of processors. It's like a maze of parallel processors with more intricacy then the entirety of the Internet on Earth and Space (including every satellite, home computer, mobile phone, etc). And unlike typical human parallel processing networks, the brain's networks don't just work together on a process, they concurrently also work on their own often competing processes. That basically also covers sequential order; the brain is not sequential, it is literally random; much of its underlying mechanics is governed by stochastic processes like electron flow, environmental input, the state of other cell clusters (nodes in a parallel processing network), and the hundreds of thousands of enzyme/nutrient equilibria constantly fluctuating inside the brain and body (e.g. sugar levels, dopamine levels). As for states: well on a basic high/low electron flow is the means of communication, but as I just said, there's also enzymes, acids, carbohydrates, etc that are also communication agents, not to mention that a cell/node may be taking electron flow input from TWO sources. It gets more complicated than simply on/off, even compared to computers. I've avoided the notions of holography and quantum computing because I'm not sure of the validity of either model for describing the human brain. I believe they have potential, but for now I think neural nets are the most basic theory of use. In truth, it's probably a mix of all 3. Either way, you can tell that taking a 'snapshot' of the human brain is for all intents and purposes impossible; not least of all because I imagine that on the macroscopic scale, the uncertainty principle applied that many times would build up tremendous numbers of errors. And in a complex equilibria neural network like the brain, it's really a case of "if a butterfly flaps its wings in Mexico, Japan gets a tsunami". And although evolutionary mechanisms have developed to prevent many scenarios of equilibria getting out of control, in this case the errors and input changes would be so wide-spread and probably fairly different that the brain's defence mechanisms wouldn't be able to compensate; if you actually did get a valid snapshot, it wouldn't produce the same person were it somehow uploaded to something else. And finally, if you did take a snapshot of the brain, it wouldn't be preservative. I.e. the brain would be destroyed. And then what do you do with the snapshot? You can't put it in another brain, considering everything above; no other brain is exactly like the one you screenshot'ed. No other brain is even remotely close; it's like an iris scan or tongue print. You could try and upload it to a computer but I think that setting up an artificial neural net that even superficially described somebody's brain would be a near impossible task (and one that would take thousands or millions of years). And even then, how do you get that neural net to the point at which the brain snapshot is at? Perhaps depending on the way it is set up, you can actually set the value of every single node. That'd take a damn long time, though. Of course it might be possible to grow an artificial brain based on somebody else's thoughts and behaviours, if you had at least a basic understanding of how any mammal brain functions as a neural net (i.e. could program a mammal brain in a computer). Still, this isn't really a snapshot, and again would take a long time to even get close to resembling a human. And you couldn't do it with today's computers. You'd probably need quantum computing and/or a massively distributed concurrent processing network, probably with topology physically designed to be similar to the neural net in question. And even then that's harder than you think because topology is a mathematical discipline and thus subject to things like some topologies not being possible, the incompleteness theorems (i.e. not knowing whether your topology is possible) and P vs NP (i.e. the problem would probably be NP, in which case it would take probably longer than the universe to solve, unless perhaps somebody proves P = NP, in which case it might only take a few billion years to solve, and that's assuming it's possible to even prove P = NP, because nobody knows due to the incompleteness theorems). I guess I'm also putting a pretty big dent in the credibility of AI with this post, too. Still, I'm a massive fan of neural nets and do think they are part of the future of both AI and computational science. Respect points to anybody who read/understood even part of that.

Yes, that is true. Indeed, I felt the game was lacking 'zest' in combat, which is why I'm replaying on hard; hopefully that keeps me on my toes and gives a reason for stealth. Still, I'm afraid to play on Superspy; I've never been a fan of masochism, which I think that would be. Eh? Where did I put it?

Mine? The thread is pretty pointless I guess. I was just venting I gripe I have with a small subset of games.

The same can be said of most recent FPS. Heck, there were dialog choices in Jagged Alliance 2, a completely non-linear world, leveling systems, skills, etc.... and I doubt anyone would call this tactical squad action game an RPG. So now it's down to being about what other games don't have? I haven't played JA2, but if it was fairly non-linear, had dialogue choices, character development, a fairly intricate plot, and your actions effected the world around you, then yeah I'd call it an RPG, wouldn't you? Hell we call IWD an RPG and it fails some of these criteria. True of many RPGs, really. I mean, again, you're dodging the issue of what constitutes an RPG. You're trying to discount features of Deus Ex rather than explain why it's not an RPG. I'm willing to accept that we must draw a line somewhere. Most people draw that line at linearity, in all its forms. Even today's FPSs (like Unreal 2, JK2 and HL2) while they have dialogue and sometimes even dialogue choices, are characterised by a general lack of consistent dialogue, consistent choices and consistent non-linearity (e.g. multiple pathways to take, whether it be stealth/combat, or simply just two different ways to get to a location or solve a problem). Thus FPS is a far more apt title for such games. But to argue that Deus Ex isn't an RPG simply because it is in first person perspective and you can shoot people (i.e. FPS)... it's really not an appealing argument. Lots of FPS can say the same. Can or do? Care to give examples? Deus Ex and System Shock 2 are the only ones that come to mind where the inventory system as at the intricacy level of your "typical" RPG. Inventory provides yet one more avenue for choice and hence non-linearity. And I think that's what the essence of 'RPG' means; maximising player choice while telling a compelling and immersive tale. Again, score one for Deus Ex. Again, many FPS (not to mention RTS) can say the same. Again, then that's one less criterion you have with which to discount Deus Ex as not being an RPG, no? And to further nail my point: how many such FPS/RTSs have the quality and quantity of moral choices and meaningful exploratory opportunities as Deus Ex? It was a FPS (all in first person to boot!) with some role-playing elements. NOLF was strictly a FPS... which also had dialogue trees, side quests, moral choices, just like most games nowadays. Now I wasn't criticizing Alpha Protocol, nor was I criticizing Deus Ex or NOLF (I loved both). I'm just saying that what very little I have read about the game... and face it, we know next to nothing at this point... sounds a bit to me like a cross between the two, and more of a FPS than what I consider a true role-playing game, particularly since it sounds as if the game will have a preset PC. Fair enough. I'm sure you did like the games. But that doesn't really justify or validate your argument as to why it's not an RPG, does it? Err what was your argument btw? Why isn't Deus Ex an RPG? I fail to see how a preset PC is a problem. Did you play Planescape: Torment? Further I think Deus Ex elucidates how a preset PC can work and how an RPG can work as an FPS, but for some reason you've yet to explain, you don't consider it so.

I can't enter every house and do things in any order I like. That means it is completely linear! Linearity is a gradient. Compared to both most FPSs and most RPGs, Deus Ex was non-linear where it counted; replayability. That comes under the definition of "with some role-playing elements". In NOLF, this didn't exist at all. System Shock had these features, as did BioShock, but few would argue that they weren't FPS games "with some role-playing elements." No, it really doesn't. An RPG is not defined by how many statistics and dice rolls it has. Or would you contend it is? Anyway, how is that "some"? You've got on the skills side: Doctor Environmental Big guns Small guns Melee Demolitions + others That compares pretty favourably with, say, Fallout, no? Stealth/Diplomacy Guns blazing And in these two approaches there is the different combat approaches: silent melee, silent ranged, big guns nuking things to hell, rifles for rapid fire, etc. In a normal FPS these are just different ways to kill things. In DX it becomes a merge of tactics and personal play style (certainly a form of role playing even in the strictest sense); elusive spy or gungho commando on a basic level. And lets be fair, how well does your definition of RPG work with different game play styles? It's rare to find an RPG that allows you to sneak past or talk your way out of almost every situation. Fallout is the only RPG that comes to mind, and even it fails miserably at stealth. Then you have augs which are gravy really, but allow for even more specilisation of your play style; arguably more than a class-based system. Certainly, when it comes to character design, Deus Ex is as much an RPG as any game. Er, No. The PC was a preset character. In Deus Ex, however, you had three head choices for J.C. Denton. The PC is a preset character in a lot of RPGs. I mean, look at Torment. And hey, unlike Torment you get to choose your skin/hair colour, your name, and your starting skills. As good as any RPG, no? Indeed, "preset character" is a very weak reason to claim DX isn't an RPG. Are you claiming Deus Ex isn't an RPG because you can't play as a girl? Anyway, I meant character choices as the game progresses; the type of character choices that actually matter most in an RPG. Eh? Unless you're talking about the choice of endings in Deus Ex. Otherwise, it was simply who you killed, if you killed, and how you killed. Remember harder. You get choices all over the place; re-uniting Sandra Renton and her Father or letting her jump town, helping out the homeless kids, when and where you turn on UNATCO, whether or not you kill people or knock them out, what you say to your co-workers at UNATCO (E.g. Sharon), whether your co-workers at UNATCO like you (e.g. the UNATCO vs NSF fight near the ton and whether you help or not, as well as Gunther Herman and Navarre), what you say Joe Greene, whether or not you rescue Tiffany, convincing the French kids parents to talk him out of working for MJ12, I could go on. Sure, you could distill it down to being all about killing, but then you're going to have a freaking hard time defending the RPG status of your favourite RPGs if you do that; Fallout, KOTOR, BG. The game is a lot more complex than killing. Killing is the catalyst for most quests and interactions simply because it's the main way you have the power to change events; Deus Ex is no different to any other RPG in this regard. "Oh, that wasn't role-playing because if diplomacy failed you could have just killed him". Yeah, ok. Contd next post due to quote limit.

For the time they were pretty decent. I mean, I'm playing this game now for the first time and the stealth still seems better than most games offer. Actually, not many games offer stealth. Still, it's about the same as DX's. And at least the guards don't return to duty like nothing happened, even when there is a body lying in front of them (*cough* Deus Ex). I've never played Thief, though, so maybe that has better stealth. In other news, I FINALLY have copies of Anachronox and NOLF2.

I'm about 1/3 to 1/2 through NOLF1 (just hopped on the boat). Anway, I'm going to restart it on hard but I had a few questions: What are the bonus awards, and when and how do you get them? E.g. health bonus, accuracy bonus. I've heard they give benefits? What does the reputation bonus do? Any special tricks or tips for some of the less used items, like lipstick, coins, berrete (seems it's a silent kill if I can sneak right up behind them and strike a blow to the head without being detected - rather limited use, really), corpse remover, etc? What're your favourite basic weapons? I find myself using the silenced pistol almost exclusively. Anything I'm missing? Really enjoying the game so far. I've seen better in some regards (Bloodlines, DX, SS2), but regardless of what it was at the time, it's still pretty awesome even now. The humour is pretty decent. And I've heard reloading cancels the mission bonuses?

Oh? Why weren't they RPGs? In the case of DX alone: - Non-linear - Skill system + AUG system for very large number of character designs - Character choices - Game world choices - Dialogue system - Dialogue choices - Multiple approaches to pretty much every problem - An intricate storyline - Inventory - Ability to change the outcome of the game and many sidequests depending on your actions - Exploration - Moral choices I'm a bit confused, really. If Deus Ex wasn't an RPG, what is?

And those have been rpgs since....? You have an inanely narrow definition of RPG. The point was games like those share much more in common with an RPG (especially of the type AP is likely to be) than a typical FPS does; and that's assuming you're going to limit the definition of 'RPG' to 3rd-person dice-roll (or rand(), whatever) based games, which again seems arbitrarily narrow. That was nice though because it subtle and could mean various things (like you found your contact). Further, it gave a tangible reward for effort; you got skill points which made you seek out secret areas and explore further in the future. Bloodlines had something similar.

In the middle of NOFL1 now. It's quite awesome. Doubt Monolith will make a 3; similar to System Shock 2, the rights have been split between two rival companies.

While I tend to distance myself from the metaphysical pseudo-science of things like "global consciousness" etc, there is an idea of how the brain works that's semi related (in the sense that sociologists and others fools hijack it for pseudo-science): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holonomic_brain_theory And some related evidence: http://www.physorg.com/news82389042.html

I'm playing No One Lives Forever and it has it. As did Jedi Knight 2. It's not a big issue. Just putting it out there; just in case one of the programmers decides "oh this will be a fun tidbit for the gamer". Heh heh.

Oh god, not again.

Can you please not quantify secret areas or kills? It cheapens the game and shifts the focus from atmosphere and being in the moment, to worrying about your kills and accuracy, reloading if you're a perfectionist. What I don't want to see: "Secret area found!" "You killed 79 out of 89 enemies" "You scored 73% accuracy with 38 hits out of 52 shot" "You scored 13 headshots" "You found 5 out of 7 secret areas" etc. Bad.

Jazz Jackrabbit FTW!! I was SO stoked when i heard he worked on that. Man oh man yes. I even still have JJ1 and 2 installed on my computer. I miss side-scrollers.

Yeah, that's definitely the biggest issue on my mind right now.

Well, no, I meant streamline. Is it called streaming in industry? Anyway, my point is that, like Dan says, "open" in terms of level design is to do with linearity rather than loading times. I think some people get confused by Morrowind/Oblivion's style and think that only games which streamline loading can be open-ended. That's far from true.

Ha. Andir you champion.

But that is what mkreku was talking about. Well maybe not RAM. Open world is akin to Oblivion and Gothic, where whatever you do, there won't be any loading once you start playing. And the opposite would be where basically every single house has it's own level and load time, like in BG2 or Bloodlines. Open world has nothing to do with that. That's called 'streamlining'.