Osvir
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Posts posted by Osvir
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With the resting feature in mind... what about passing out, being awake too long?
I know I know, this isn't the Sims we're talking about (in a sense it kind of is, but I don't mind. The Sims is awesome xD).
Risk factor with being awake for too long is just that, you pass out and if you get caught red-handed in an ambush you're pretty much screwed (of course there is a tactical experience to that as well, and possibility to survive too. Just heavily at a disadvantage due to lack of fatigue). Makes me think of "Second Wind" in Borderlands actually, combining it with a system like that of a proper cRPG (again, the classical role-playing games).
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I don't necessarily oppose punishing the player twice (or more) for sucking in combat -- what I oppose is punishing the player with tedium for failing twice in combat. The ultimate expression of tedium is the "twiddle your thumbs for N hours while cooldown timers expire", but trekking back through empty areas to heal and then returning is in the same bucket.
Games should never deliberately inflict tedium on the player. Sometimes tedium is unavoidable for various reasons (realism, technical limitations, and so forth), and that's OK, but it shouldn't be a deliberate design feature. Games are supposed to be fun, not work, after all.
But games are, in themselves , a kind of a job/work (all depends on how you look at it). I can't think the last time I played League of Legends not thinking it is work.
EDIT: What I'm talking about with the work thing is... I'm a rather good player at this point so to me I need plan out tactics before the game even start. Check my team members on loking.net, compare against the enemy team what kind of opposition we will have. How should I cheer up the team and support them verbally, socially and skillfully? (I play Janna Support or Riven Jungle)
The key here is to make "work fun and lasting", entertaining, the game space/world is supposed to be a place you as a player wants to continuously return too (replayability). Heroes of Might & Magic III is amazing, I love it, but I only play one game once every 6 months or so. I suggest either a difficulty option or blatantly an option/setting where you decide what type of progression the days have.
I believe one of the mods in Baldur's Gate adjusts the in-game hours, how fast they go by (This isn't Fast Forwarding in which everything moves along faster and everyone is walking at x4 of their movespeed, merely that the minutes it takes for one day to complete are either less or more. I don't think this would be too difficult to implement).
Either a day passed by in 2 real life hours In-Game, or perhaps you simply want it casually at 10 minutes.
One in which you, the player decides if you want a longer/tactical experience, or if you want a quicker faster more action oriented experience. Wherein the action oriented experience would lean more towards the IE & friends game (The classical RPG), the longer experience would appeal to those who want "More Hardcore" (I would categorize myself in both of those experiences to be honest).
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Did you also do the fake-talk strategy to kill Firkraag? Ever try to Feebleminding him? It works sometimes, but it makes the combat afterwards suck and ruins the whole point of the challenging fight. I guess you would do it and then talk about how badly designed the game was to let you.
What are you talking about? That's great design :D
EDIT: Also, I modded my Baldur's Gate (at one point) so that I pretty much gained 1 experience from everything because I wanted a challenge and not level up too fast. Unfortunately I kind of never leveled up (Level 1 Nashkel woohoo~?).
I've only finished Baldur's Gate, never Baldur's Gate II. I guess it's about due time.
2nd EDIT, on resting:
Difficulty - Resting
Easy - Very easy
Normal/Core rules - Very Easy
Extreme - Very easy
Resting never really changed in difficulty scaling. It does sound like a rather easy fix to make it more like I believe it was intended to be originally (More dangerous/risky).
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Maybe "taunt" is code for "throws small rocks at to annoy"?
Which bounce off CrocodileMan's armor and he continues to ignore you while he beats down whoever he is beating down and allows you to be completely useless. What is taunting supposed to actually achieve anyway? Whatever it is it would probably be better to just do it automagically instead of using some nonsensical excuse that turns every monster into some immature human who loses all control of bodily functions due to some weird sort of code that we call "taunting". If there is a dumber mechanic in RPGs I don't know what it is. And I still don't see how it actually hurts the attacking monster. Oh, wait. He's supposed to then chase you around and completely ignore everyone else? Totally implausible.
That is what I meant, why compare taunt with an instantly aggressive changing ability? Why expect Taunt to work like a "Now you will attack me wolf, because I said so".
Some/Many creatures could have "immunity" to Taunt, such as animals (unless you would in fact throw a rock at them).
If CrocodileMan is fighting someone else already (the Fighter) and someone tries to taunt him or throws a rock that just so happens to hit him in the head, he'll get "Distracted" (more on that at the end) and the Fighter gets a hit. Maybe CrocodileMan notices the Mage and manages to tackle the Fighter off and can now charge the Mage, but the Rogue manages to provoke CrocodileMan in his fit of rage (already being frustrated by the battle which goes on).
Now, instead of calling it "Taunt" how about "Distract"?
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Brilliantly said ogrezilla. If there was a "Like this much" button by the post I would have pressed it. I can only agree.
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What are Godlike races? Aasimar, Tiefling, Djinni, Yuan-Ti?
Now don't smite me but... Aasimar is half-human, half-angel, whilst Tiefling is half-human, half-demon?
What about full-demon and full-angel?
EDIT: I would love to see the Doglike (for one, Dog = goD) creature from Egyptian mythology :D Minotaurs would be awesome as well. One can dream <3
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Pros
- There was a rating system, so you could see what people thought of your character
- Random rewards could be nice, was pleasant
- Just a cool thought that your character is out adventuring
- They could learn from creatures.
All great in a single player experience. I specially like where you learn from creatures.
The rating system doesn't necessarily have to be from other players (a.k.a Online) but manifested in a sort of Single-Player Fame/Reputation a la "What does the in-game world, think of you?"
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metiman are you purposefully trying to be difficult? xD
So we already know that the technology to communicate with your mind, and bend the game does in fact not exist.
With this knowledge dropping down on top of us, maybe we can be a little bit more realistic and realize that "Taunt"/"Annoy"/"Provoke" would simply be a representation of an ability. A button, mechanically, that you have to press to use it because you can't speak out loud and tell the game what to do (yet).
EDIT: I am also not assuming that Ogres are going to be annoyed, I'm assuming that the single Ogre with pre-built in-game affection and insecurity about his small patch of hair on his head will in fact be annoyed.
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Taunt Checks~ depending on creature, AI and other stuff, functioning in the same way as "lockpick" "Taunt Failed"/"Taunt Success".
An Ogre who is very sensitive to the little hair he has on his head might be awfully sad/angry and provoked by whoever taunts/provokes.
The Baron which you want to frame, by taunting him in court/in front of the guards, provoking him to attack you will strengthen the thought of the Baron being guilty (when in fact he is innocent). Forthwith and forwards, so on and so forth, etcetera etcetera. Taunt could be used in an endless, unlimited fashion.
EDIT:
The fighter-as-tank is another of my pet peeves. Are the enemies really that stupid? Why go after the most heavily armored character with the most hit points when standing right behind him are a whole bunch of weaker, lightly armored, easy to kill characters? Of course not all foes will be that intelligent and perceptive. Clearly an ochre jelly isn't going to have that kind of reasoning ability and would just use a nearest-first strategy. It doesn't even have eyes.
In Baldur's Gate (with mods... I've got like 20 GB~ worth or so) the AI will target your Thief the second he is anywhere close to the creature. It will turn around and change target as well as run after it a little bit. Archer's always target my Mage if he is too close to the battlefield (their sight/range). Thieves hide in shadows and backstab my Mage's first and so on and so forth.
I think this is part of the SCS-mod (Sword Coast Stratagems)
With a good AI, the Fighter will have to struggle to get the attention to be a tank. He needs to keep the enemies busy and intercept them from going after anything else. This necessarily does not mean that the enemies are stupid, they are just too busy to be able to go after what they want to attack intellectually and logically.
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What?
What are you babblling about?
How the hell did you get that idea? Did you even read what I wrote?
Yes I read what you wrote, and I was being annoyed. The more I discuss with you the more you put everything into the "All can do it Category".
I don't mean to be rude, but what kind of role are you looking for in the Rogue?
I read your original post, several times, and I'm wondering if it is a pisstake on what Rogue's are today or an actual constructive idea in there somewhere (Tumbling/Evasion which sounds cool) that makes them special in any way in a combat situation/out of combat situation. How will this work with the Mage's ability to cast spells? How will this work with the Fighter's ability to tank?
What is the Rogue's Role in the Unity of the Party? Is he the Left Arm or the Right Arm? What is his disadvantage, as well as his advantage?
If he is mainly Utility and only used "Out Of Combat", can't he simply be an Item? Why do I need a full party slot for someone who can't do anything but "Search"/"Find Traps"/"Pickpocket"/"Bluff"/"Scout" and so on.
Heck, what different roles could a Rogue have? I can see several and I know as a fact that people play differently:
* Support/Utility Skill Tree
If you go this way you'll get your classical Rogue from the old IE games (I prefer this myself)
* Backstabbing DPS Skill Tree
A more modern take on the Rogue, and if you choose to level it this way you'll get the more combat oriented Class you are looking for
* Both~
Of course you can also mix and combine the two.
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The game should be fun to play and balanced to play. elements of previous games which created unbalance should be seen as cautionary tales.
That said I think its impossible for a game to be made that can't be exploited by the player in some way, so to my mind the focus for the game maker can't be in trying to solve the problem of how the user is going to abuse the system once it gets in their hands, but work on solid design that doesn't actively encourage players seeking ways to abuse the game design.
I like this thought a lot.
EDIT:
I want a game built in confidence and not insecurity, I do not want the developer's to be influenced in a way by the community so that they start to think:
"We shouldn't do this because this is abuse-able"
Whilst in fact whatever idea they got is a great idea.
To draw a picture/parallel: Resting in Baldur's Gate is a great idea in itself, but it is -very easy- to abuse at the same time. Even on the hardest of difficulties. Without resting in the game it wouldn't have been the same game, instead it was released to have that feature. What if the developer's had gotten cold feet and removed the feature from the game? Would it have been the same experience? Would we even be talking about it today?
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I only have one input, everything else about Firearms I won't touch:
Will you be able to shoot Magic? :D
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But lances are way heavier? I'm having a hard time seeing a character running on foot and fighting with a lance.
Isn't the lance specifically designed for Medieval Games? (Knight vs Knight on horses, for the amusement of the King)
^that is something I would love to see as a mini-game: "Impress the King!" xD
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additions
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I fancy idea of classes having certain unique hooks.
Wizards are obviously the ones that can cast spells and only they will be able to.
Clerics should be reserved to the heal and buff role.
An idea could be reserving critical hits for fighters, allowing them to benefit from their supreme training as to be able to manage those feats.
A rogue then can rely on subterfuge and deception then, being able to perform special actions in combat like drawing attention, misleading opponents, generally guiding the flow of battle. That seems like a unique role, nobody has yet. You know, besides being the obvious skilled go-to guy out of combat.
</end of rant>
No.
Unless you haev a good, sensible, in-universe reason why someoen can't do X, then you should never dissalow it.
Anyone can taunt.
Aynone can cause a critical (it's the definition of a Lucky Blow). Even the fumbliest of mages.
Let's just make one Class and one Race that is everything in one go, right? Is that what you are suggesting?
The dashing Rogue is often and fondly known as the "clown" in many RPG's and stories generally, the one who taunts only to **** his pants running away from an angry mob of taunted Mummy's or whatnot.
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Frankly, I think the biggest thing that is huring CRPG's is the abiltiy to save/load everywhere.
It utterly kills suspense and promts peopel to act far more reckless than they normally would.
I'd love it if the game had no player-initiated saving and loading at all, even on easy. So many aspects of the game would benefit, and rogues would especially become much more interesting class to play. It'd be a huge win for tactical planning, spell preparation, scouting, trap detection etc. And it'd prevent sillyness like pickpocket - quickload - pickpocket - quickload...
The sillyness you speak of about pickpocketing and quick-loading I'm sure something you chose to do yourself. But nonetheless I do agree with you that it is silly at the same time. How could it be done better? What could be done so that you do not quickload? I'm suggesting that something would happen if your pickpocketing fails, and if you load you'd miss story/banter (Talk yourself out of it)/another section of gameplay/areas (jail) and so on.
Should the game restrict us from abusing it or should we restrict ourselves from abusing it?
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What the title says :D
* Rest Abuse
Rest rest rest! You've now been able to sleep for 40~ some hours and ready to kick some ass.
* Save Abuse
Pickpocket Fail - Quickload - Pickpocket Fail - Quickload etc. etc. (Until success)
* What-Else-Abuse?
* Have you ever abused a system, if so, how/in what way and why?
Discuss.
EDIT:
I would love to hear what anyone feels on this subject. What I'm after here isn't necessarily the game mechanic of P:E or Baldur's Gate. Basically I see two categories on the board:
A, Wants a game that is role-playish, but it is abuseable
B, Wants a game that is role-playish, but it is not
Both of the options are practically the same suggestions, B is just a tad bit more restricted (Not being able to save or rest everywhere just being examples) whilst A is much more free and open.
2nd EDIT:
I've gotten stuck in the Gameplay & Mechanics Forum so I forget there's a General Discussion Forum. Could this be moved? :D
Also...
Hugs! <3
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I fancy idea of classes having certain unique hooks.
Wizards are obviously the ones that can cast spells and only they will be able to.
Clerics should be reserved to the heal and buff role.
An idea could be reserving critical hits for fighters, allowing them to benefit from their supreme training as to be able to manage those feats.
A rogue then can rely on subterfuge and deception then, being able to perform special actions in combat like drawing attention, misleading opponents, generally guiding the flow of battle. That seems like a unique role, nobody has yet. You know, besides being the obvious skilled go-to guy out of combat.
</end of rant>
Taunt on Rogue for the win :D
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I'm comparing with Baldur's Gate. What my experience was and how I have to think to make the thieves backstabbing authentic.
But you're right, this isn't Baldur's Gate.
Thinking about it a bit more too, a Rogue being a Utility class is great... but only if the Dungeon-mechanic is "floor-by-floor" challenge instead of "per-encounter".
To answer this:
I think the devs already confirmed that you can build a "finesse" fighter. They should be best at hitting the opponent's vital spots - along with the monk.With this:
I've always had this feeling that an assassin/rogue is specifically trained to hit vital areas. With a dagger there is so little you can do, you need to hit vital areas for it to make real damage. Whilst the sword/halberd/axe do plenty of damage by simply "hitting", i.e. you don't need the same finesse and/or precision.This being said, maybe specific weapons should have more of a backstab multiplier, whilst larger weapons have less of a backstab multiplier?
Now a sword still requires a lot of finesse in itself, but a dagger needs even more so to do any damage at all. A dagger to the knee is going to sting, cut a nerve perhaps, a sword will cut of the leg.
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As for the reason rogues get special backstabs, that's because the rogue doesn't fight conventionally. Instead they specifically target those areas and use their abilities to give them a greater chance of hitting them. They don't even try to hit people in normal places, instead they always aim for the most vulnerable portions of a persons body. Also, in any properly run PnP game, rogues generally aren't great DPS. Sorcs priests and two-handed weapon fighters are. Hell, even in NWN, the rogues really weren't top DPS classes.
So..you're telling me that fighters - poeple who spend their lives dedicated to combat and killing - don't know the human anatomy and vital areas of the human body...
And rogues, who mostly hide and use skills and generally avoid combat - do.
O.K. ... o.k.
That makes sense...somehow... in the bizzaro universe.
I've always had this feeling that an assassin/rogue is specifically trained to hit vital areas. With a dagger there is so little you can do, you need to hit vital areas for it to make real damage. Whilst the sword/halberd/axe do plenty of damage by simply "hitting", i.e. you don't need the same finesse and/or precision.
This being said, maybe specific weapons should have more of a backstab multiplier, whilst larger weapons have less of a backstab multiplier?
Rogue's are swifter more flexible, they could take that extra step (tumble), slither their arms around and strike that spot. Where the more robust warrior/fighter is trained for strength, and more in the ways of toppling his enemy. I feel that everyone should have a backstab multiplier, but the rogue should have more of it.
EDIT: Definitely for the rogue being more of a utility class. I just still would like to see it purposeful in battle.
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Limiting it to only 16 hours is awkward in a sense, but it is also logical. From a roleplaying perspective I can imagine my guys resting after the fight, eating something, perhaps drinking some water to keep themselves fresh before heading onwards towards the next encounter. I don't need a button that practically does nothing in-game for me to experience this.
I don't get this suggestion, I mean that should anyone who wants to play this game and 'roleplay', then why not just choose to not rest every w/ever number or hours you feel is realistic!
I think the mechanics of PE should punish the stupid choices every player makes (ie if using the vancien casting system) but not to the point of saying you can't rest whenever you want to, that's what getting woken up by the enemy is for!
That's the thing, in Baldur's Gate the enemies you get woken up by are pointless too. Because they fill no purpose except Cannon Fodder (i.e they explode in meat).
What I am saying, which isn't a suggestion, is that sleeping and resting are two different things.
* Sleeping is difficult to do ALL the time. Try sleeping 16 hours and be awake 8 hours (Baldur's Gate in a nutshell) every day.
* Resting isn't difficult to do at all, I do it all the time, just sitting down or standing still is resting. In a sense taking a breathe is resting. Do we need a button for this?
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Duhr-, Dehr-, Dihr- or Dyhr-wood.
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Great update, great discussions, great ideas :D looking forward to more.
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This is a role-playing game, not a camping simulator.
This. I completely agree.
Then again, apart from not being a camping simulator, it is a role-playing game involving adventuring. I would even like to say advanced adventuring in a fantasy setting. Not only is "camping" a resource that any adventurer or explorer uses, but it is highly important for them as well.
The Role of Rogues?
in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
Posted · Edited by Osvir
Before combat, preparation. You encounter 4 Orcs, maybe he manages to hide in shadows, throw a rock/make a sound, lure one of them away from the area. Maybe even lure two of them leaving only two left that the rest of your team can take down. Laying traps, alchemy (I always had the throwing potions on my Thief in Icewind Dale because it felt most fitting), maybe even be able to shoot "Effect" Flasks/Potions with a sling?
EDIT: Maybe give him a "takedown" ability where he can sneak up behind an enemy and "instakill" if all the dice rolls, checks and random effects pass. This way he could be really strong against individual, scattered foes, or even initiate a fight by surprise by taking down 1 guy, the 3 other Orc's are caught by surprise and attack him. At the same time, the rest of the party ambushes the distracted Orc's. More of a risky tactic of course, but I can think of several uses of the rogue.
I envision the Thief more being like Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid (PSOne). A James Bond figure that uses the environment and items to his advantage. A Tinkerer~