mikayel

Oh crap, forgot about the first level delay on spell casting. Yeah, you took a level of a warrior class then you missed a spell-casting level on first Eldritch Knight level. Still, we can modify or change that with a simple house rule like "first level of EK gets casting as well" or a general "all martial weapon" proficiency.

Hahahahaha, I wish I could give Psychoblonde a fist-bump. If scroll-scribing is in the game, then wizards and clerics should NEVER run out of spells, end of story. In ToEE you used your innate spell slots for meta-magic or for high level spells that you didn't want to sacrifice hundreds of XP for. Otherwise, all of your web, magic missile, fireball, haste, enlarge person, etc. was cast from scrolls because they were cheap, you could have a ton of 'em, and more importantly they allowed for many, many more castings of spells. The IE games had no such feature, and neither did NWN I believe so you had to either buy scrolls to cast 'em (most would consider this not-worth it unless they needed a specific gimmick for a fight) or you had to find 'em. In real D&D you make your own arsenal -- that's why in KotC my wizards ran around wielding wands of fireball +1 and would just rain artillery-hell on everyone while the cleric and knight kept the stronger monsters at bay for them to eventually unload more useful spells. As for making a fighter-mage type of character, why not just bring up multi-classing or prestige classes? Eldritch Knight basically made any wizard a good BAB decent HP gish at the cost of one caster level. Word on the street is that Gandalf was a half-celestial double-halfling cleric of Monochromatus, the god of blandness and neutrality.

I'd rather talk about changing the way archery works in general but instead I'll say this: Limited ammo then include one of those "everlast" or "quiver of plenty" items after the game has progressed to the point that you're no longer coveting a masterwork longsword over a regular one. Or, have that be a perk in the crafting/enchanting system and let players who like building their own tools of convenience craft such items that do either mundane damage (same as a regular arrow) or perhaps even slightly less damage but they are unlimited. Likewise, you can include weapons that create their own ammo thus negating your ability to use an awesome bow + awesome arrow combo and instead stick with whatever magical projectiles that weapon happens to shoot on its own. I'm curious if throwing weapons will show up, and if they do, will they be useful or not? "Fastest dart thrower in the west!"

The Scar by Mieville had lobster people who had Atlantean cities under the sea. Yeah, he really broke the bank on "how far can a furry scaley chitiny go?"

If it is not like WoW where you are spamming multiple hot-keys to a the rhythm of the war drums (cool downs) similar to ridiculous game of guitar hero (keyboard hero?) then I guess it might be ... playable. I'd rather not even try to go down that route... but it seems that their minds are already made up. This is... disappointing, unless we are misinterpreting what those posts regarding cooldowns have been about. Then again, the devs are very cryptic with how the game will actually function -- sure, it's still being developed but... surely there is something they can show in regards to how an example encounter might go? I mean... they'd have to have at least a decently solidified idea before they started asking for money. Right? ... right?

Check out Perdido Street Station, or Iron Council, or The Scar by China Mieville. Strangely, his book The City and The City is very nicely done low-sci-fi mystery and has some really neat parallels to reality and the fictional setting (which is implanted into our real world). Then, apparently, he decided to make giant worms that have humanoid torsos similar to centaurs and soldiers who pilot flying jelly fish.

I'm just presenting 3 of the creatures I thought were rather... silly, from Perdido Street Station. There's more novels set in the same setting (Bas-Lag) by the author (China Mieville). I will be blunt with you. They are rather silly, and after I realized I just read 2 pages of a grown man with the equivalent of a Ph. D in metaphysics having head-sex with what is basically a tan woman who's neck cuts off and has a giant scarab beetle that communicates via spraying pheromones everywhere I put the book down, walked outside, and began to re-evaluate the decisions I had made in my life that led me to this point. Later, you find that the scarab-headed Khepri woman (Khepri is their race's name) eats colored berries and poops them out with which she builds psychedelically colored sculptures. Cactus people have muscles and breasts. Yeah.

That's... what 5 threads merged as one? This is far too bloated to even keep track of anymore...

DCParry -- I agree, they do not need to be exclusive (Blood Points [an SP system] used in Bloodlines is a good example of lore+mechanics). Rather, what I am saying is that if I had to pick between good lore or good mechanics, I'd pick mechanics every time. I realize this is just my view, and I do not think it is the gospel. Ogrezilla, that is true -- but in a proper D&D game the DM would not let you rest after every kobold. In cRPGs however there is not a stringent enough resting limit -- something like not being able to sleep for 8 hours after only 30 minutes of waking time would be obvious, as would bigger threats to resting in dangerous areas (not just being attacked, but flat out being killed, robbed, kidnapped, separate, etc.). That, however, is not Vancian issue, it is a poor balance issue. After-all, MP systems can also be prone to rest abuse (and in many jRPGs, that is the best way to grind -- blast everything with uber moves then use a nearby resting point to regenerate everything).

So, will there be any form of magic-resource management or only cooldowns of varying lengths?

Its not that its what it used to be, but rather that it is a tried and tested system that has proven itself better (in my mind and in the minds of others) over cooldowns, mana, mp, or spell-points. Ultimately it just boils down to what you like of course but the reason I like this system is because I believe it is a better designed system. Also, my explanation of magic words was just crap I made up. I have not read Dying Earth and so I do not know what Vance's original explanation was. But... I mean, we're talking about magic here. There's no "real" explanation, so anything that we can come up with is just BS that you either are willing to accept as sufficient enough for why your little pixel dudes get to go pew-pew or not.

But you didn't explained why. You think you did, but you didn't. Very well sir, in the spirit of fairness I shall try to explain myself thoroughly here. Well, the classes rely uniquely on those casting mechanics -- as such, talking about those classes is also talking about the mechanics. But ok, I'll drop referring to the classes and refer to Vancian or SP exclusively. Going back to what I summarized in my Batman V Superman point -- it boils down to this. Vancian allows you to not only limit player over-kill by limiting high end spells, but it also allows for players to switch what spells they are using apropos to what encounter or dungeon they are going into. SP systems limit how many spells you can potentially cast by having a lower number of spells known, but allow for more castings of the relevant spells at that time. The problem here is if you choose to pick bad spells that have limited use (like perhaps elemental Direct Damage or Hit-Die capped insta-kills) then you can no longer opt to drop those spells in favor of a previously unused one because you had chosen to permanently take the damage/kill spell instead. Now, the flexibility of Vancian casting is not only that, but it also allows for the idea of "scribing" scrolls into your book, which if you do with an SP system, will make Wizards or Casters even more ridiculously overpowered because now, the previously only thing holding them in balance (their limited repertoire of known spells) can grow so long as they get their hands on spell-scrolls. KotC did this, and it made Wizards overpowered (more so than usual D&D). However, KotC was a simple dungeon crawling hack n slash that specifically was about killing, looting, and more killing and never pretended to take itself seriously in anything other than turn-based combat. You think the above and the below are separate, I disagree, the better a system is in its use the more fun it is to play. And I think Vancian is the more fun system because it is more flexible. Also, I never ranted about you not knowing what "Vancian" was, but rather, Spell-Ponit-per-Level. You don't even know what I thought you didn't know, :D

Because a magic system is a mechanical set of rules that are necessary to allow for (hopefully) balanced gameplay and whether or not they are explained in fluff or plot is a bonus, not a necessity. Aside from that, let us assume that when you are able to shape the very physical nature of matter, time, space, and everything inbetween with words alone (or words and gestures) that maybe those words are of a different nature than common words and holding too many in mind will cause you to die, or something. I mean, really, what's more important that the game system be balanced, effective, and fun, or that there be a satisfying one paragraph explanation in a manual?

I can't even... I ... So go play Fallout?

Tuco isn't using Bard's and Sorcerers to refute D&D style casting. For one, he's only talking about the "low flexibility on the memorization system in D&D" which isn't all of D&D casting. For two, he was contrasting that (Vancian) against a different game system entirely. Your wrong statement is wrong. People are discussing Vancian and cool downs. Not Bards vs. Wizards. And I think, as Tuco himself says to you later, the people who dislike "fire and forget" know that sorcerers and bards didn't use that system. Sigh. Bard and Sorcerer casting is inferior to Vancian. I'm tired of repeating why -- I have said at least 3 times the tactical differences there-in and even made analogies. If you don't like Vancian, that's fine, but that's just your view. In terms of versatility and possibility, Vancian trumps Spell-Points. Wow indeed, I too am constantly amazed at people who don't know the names of the things they are talking about. I mean, google is right there, why not just look it up? There's nothing low-flexibility about Vancian, which as I've said many times now, is a constant mistake people keep remaking. Vancian is more flexible than SPL --- far more flexible, because if you forgot to memorize something like Protection from Evil or Chaotic Commands in an SPL system you're boned if you can't find a scroll when you need, where-as in a Vancian system you can just change your spells as appropriate. Hardly, like I said to him that if I misunderstood his post then I apologize for doing so. You do read my actual words, yes? Hahahahahahaahaha is this a modified Godwin's law or something? So, yeah, straw man is full of straw. Dude, just because you for some reason are refusing to include Baldur's Gate 2 and Icewind Dale 2 into the list of "Infinity Engine games" doesn't mean the rest of the world is going as well. How is this point even an issue? Sawyer even worked in IWD 2 how the hell would the game he worked on in the IE engine not be a key point in what influenced this particular game? so quit arguing?