PrimeJunta

@JadedWolf thing is, nobody's saying that gaming really is the hobby of neckbeards. On the contrary, almost every MSM piece about this I've read has pointed out that gaming has gone mainstream. What they're saying is that gaming culture and discourse about games is dominated by neckbeards, and that largely for historical reasons, because at one point they really did form a much more significant chunk of the gamer and especially game author demographic. This has changed, and the neckbeards are screaming bloody murder. Zit. Popped. Seriously. There is no reasonable middle ground in this drama. There's entertainment value, especially as anyone can participate, like, say, adopting a role and posting on a thread on some forum somewhere, on one side or another.

@KaineParker Funny, and here I thought Texas has the highest horses of them all. Surely you haven't traded them in for ponies?

Ah. We were talking at cross-purposes, slightly. I was talking about the big picture, the cultural shift that's been going on for many years now and broke surface... perhaps with Sarkeesian's Kickstarter. GamerGate might very well "win" if by winning you mean succeed in getting some clueless corporations to pull advertising from some worthless media outlets or some speakers to cancel engagements, or even -- tragically -- ruin some lives. That's all entertaining and/or unpleasant, depending on how you look at it. What's far more important though is that the rest of the world has gotten a good look at what the culture that came up with GG really represents -- and has roundly rejected it. The troglodytes are now blinking in the sunlight, and their cave is being dug up. That's what counts. Edit: I plead guilty to misanthropy though. I do despise most people, on most days.

No. I do not feel any need to "be even" with you. That would be too big a step down.

@KainParker Ah. Texan. That is a valid excuse. Apologies and condolences, I did not realize that.

</trollmode> I've been following this scene for a looooong time. Since rec.games on Usenet in the '90's at least, and BBS's from before that. Things have changed, big-time. Games are no longer a weird nerdy niche thing. If someone asks what my hobbies are, I can list "games" without getting more than the very occasional weird look. (I never minded them, but I do notice the difference.) Games are reviewed in major mainstream press. There are shows about gaming on major mainstream TV. Competitive gaming is starting to be recognized as a sport. That means that the weird little bubble that is 'gamer culture' has popped. It's no longer safely insulated from the rest of the world. That means that the kind of raging, overt, and often entirely unconscious racism and sexism that's apparent even in this thread -- although probably not to many of the people who do it, having only been exposed to the kind of culture that has the same values -- no longer passes without comment. Anita Sarkeesian would not have been conceivable five or ten years ago. Five years ago, if someone who's not white, or a woman, said on a forum like this "You know, I'd like it if more women or people of color showed up in games, as protagonists and main characters instead of just tokens," she would have been (1) completely alone and (2) run out of town on a rail. Now? The violence of the backlash against her is stronger than ever, but only because the usual methods aren't working anymore. She's not completely alone: she has people chiming in and supporting her. When the backlash runs to the ridiculous extents it has in GG and with Sarkeesian, to name just two incidents, this makes mainstream news -- and they aren't buying the manboon story. These neckbeards with fedoras ranting about "misandry" are weird, and they never realized it because in the gamer bubble their views were, until now, hegemonic and unchallenged. For the past few years, they've had to face a real challenge to their ridiculous views, and like the manboons they are, they've only dug their hole deeper. There are about 17,000 people hating on Sarkeesian on Reddit. That's an insignificant fraction of the people who play games. It's that majority who matters. The KainParkers, Orogun1's, pseudonymi, and Meshuggers of this world are being squeezed into insignificance, clutching their fedoras and throwing this gigantic temper tantrum that we're seeing. It's a zit. It's being popped, and there's bloody pus all over the place. Sadly there are some real pathogens in there and I fervently hope nobody will actually get killed before this is over, but ultimately that's all that it is. A zit. Popped. A while longer, and gaming will meld into mainstream culture and will be regarded no differently from films, TV, or books. The weird isolated misogynistic bubble where anything goes because hey, Internet will be history. It's the same thing in the atheist and skeptic communities too, by the way -- too other hitherto unsullied preserves of white, nerdy men. All those women and people of color elbowing their way in, demanding representation on their own terms. Same discourse, same conflict, same ugliness, same dynamic... and same direction. It'll be a while yet. A few years, maybe. And it'll very likely get worse—superficially at least—before it gets better. But yes, we are winning. The manboons can't stop it, however much poo they sling and however hard they scream. And I'm enjoying every step of the way.

Sorry, @KaineParker, but no can do. We're winning, you see. You and the other manboons are the ones in the echo chamber; we represent the world at large. :breathes the briny wind blowing in from the sea: Mmmm. Freedom and open space. Lovely. If you want to find a nice comfy hole where you can safely wallow in your masculine victimhood without inconveniencing the rest of us, though, don't let us stop you. I hear the MGTOW's have a project where they want to buy an island and all move there. Maybe you want to chip in on that? Hell, if it's realistic, I'll throw in a shekel just to be rid of you lot.

Gamer culture is a zit. It is being popped. That is all.

Nice try. Now, point them out and state their crimes. Nah. More fun yanking your chain here. Nice fedora by the way.

@TrueNeutral Trolls are likely never going away. (I'm having a pretty good time trolling this very thread, for example.) GG will blow over soonish, though. Give it a couple months and then there's room to talk about ethics in journalism without it devolving into an in-depth investigation of who banged whom when and whether today's death threat to some particular woman is a "legitimate threat" or not.

@Meshugger Unable to see them, huh? Hmm, I wonder what could possibly be the reason for that…?

@Orogun01 Priorities, man. In this situation I have to take a choice: throw my lot in with the MRA's, MGTOW's, misogynists, and other assorted manboons, or call for a higher standard of ethics in journalism. One or the other. It is politically impossible to do both. Try, like TrueNeutral here, and you'll fall between the chairs, or be used as a fig leaf. I choose not to throw my lot in the with the manboons. Once we've got them safely rounded up in a ghetto where they can wallow in their victimhood without inconveniencing the rest of us, then we can talk about journalistic ethics. If capitalism hasn't collapsed by then and made the whole discussion moot anyway.

Where did I do that?

Journalistic ethics and harassment may usually be two completely separate things. In this context, however, they're not. Like it or not, you're throwing your lot in with the harassers, and soiling both yourself and the cause of ethics in journalism in the process. If you're not a neckbearded manchild yourself, then you're, as Lenin dubbed Western milquetoast lefties supporting, or at least not opposing, the Bolshevik revolution, a "useful idiot."

Oh, good. That means our side is winning. Nyah nyah.

The status quo is not apolitical, nor is "not evangelizing." I.e., that was the eternal cry of the hegemonic group having hegemony challenged. Mm, the smell of Molotov ****tails in the morning...

I had a few minutes to waste. That said, this thread has opened my eyes to just how many neckbearded man-children inhabit this very forum. I'm frankly shocked. I thought more of us were fully-socialized adults, more or less. I also think that if you're more upset about indie games not getting the exposure you think they deserve than lives and careers being if not ruined at least severely harmed by this stuff, you are one of those neckbearded man-children.

Am I the only one who thinks this entire thing is mind-bogglingly... stupid? Sure, there are ghastly problems with ethics in games journalism they're pretty much exactly the same problems all American corporate-funded mainstream media have -- and in the cosmic scale of things, a bought game review ranks pretty low compared to, say, a bought election or a bought war. Plus, some indie dev sleeping with a journalist who didn't even write about her stuff ain't it. And people are sending other people death and rape threats, pulling advertising, boycotting publications, and generally getting incredibly butthurt about this? "Gamers" deserve exactly the reputation they have. Which is one reason I don't identify as one. Besides, it's not even a proper identity—it's a consumer segment. Late-stage capitalism bullcacky, is what this is.

@Captain Shrek no moving goalposts here, just expanding on the reasons for my original request ("Do you have a cRPG in mind with a learn-by-doing system that doesn't lead to relentless skill-grinding? Both TES and Darklands certainly do.") Again, I asked because I can see a number of serious problems with your proposed solution, and was curious if you knew of a game that had actually pulled it off. Since you don't and were speaking purely theoretically, I have no further questions. Thank you for your time.

@Captain Shrek Yes, you did criticize skill-grinding. However, you failed to provide an example of a learn-by-doing game that's not skill-grindy. The two you mentioned certainly are. IMO your proposed solution (severely limit the opportunities for skill use) doesn't sound like much fun, and I fail to see its advantages compared to plain ol' hand-placed quest/objective XP. So I was curious if you know of a game that actually did it that way and succeeded at being fun. Armchair design will only get you so far, you know.

Not butthurt about XP. Riiiight... Do you have a cRPG in mind with a learn-by-doing system that doesn't lead to relentless skill-grinding? Both TES and Darklands certainly do.

Hm. Why even bring XP up then, if it's not relevant? I re-read your post and you appear to be arguing there that P:E should get rid of XP altogether. I find that confusing (and also unreasonable).

Good points but from where I'm at, taken a bit too far. First off, the IWD's. I really enjoyed the combat density and design of IWD 1. IWD 2 not so much; there were too many trash mobs there, and too many of them were more or less identical. More goblins, then more orcs, then more barbarians, etc. That you lump them together suggests that we have rather different ideas about where the ideal should lie. Moreover, the combat density in the BB isn't too far off IMO. Dyrford Crossing seems a bit crowded, but other than that, it feels about right, and the mobs are remarkably diverse too -- it's not beetles after beetles after beetles after beetles; it's lions and spiders and beetles and wraiths and cultists and so on. So I agree with your general principle — too much combat and too many trash mobs is bad — but not the specific claims, i.e. that IWD 1 or the BB have too much of them. The rest of it just sounded like more butthurt over XP, so I won't address that.

Nobody's as easily offended or easy to troll as the folks who keep woofing about SJW's. All you have to do is say something complimentary about Anita Sarkeesian. Lulz guaranteed. Compared to them, actual SJW's are marble.

@Lord Vicious I wasn't referring to in-game activities. I was referring to emotions caused by perceived slights and pandering by the developers of P:E.