Elerond
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Posts posted by Elerond
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Question is how big danger those minority groups are for peace in society and truth is that small groups aren't that big deal even with high criminal activity.
Also small groups have higher change to show high in relative statistics. Especially if they are some special groups that have high number of people from other demographics that have high exposure to criminal activity, like refugees, poor, etc.
Refugees in theory cost quite lot money for state, but in reality amount of money that they get month to month gives them just ability to by food and pay their housing, which means that all the money that for example Finland gives to refuges comes back to state via taxes and other payments (like rents in government owned housing). Way they stress our economy don't come from how much they cost but how much money they tie in that tax loop from general economy, money that at least in theory could be tied to something else that produces more new money to our economy.
Like that housing thing that you mentioned. In Finland some municipalities also house refugees in hotels but that isn't because there isn't available housing, but because those municipalities have suffered from loss of tourism and they (because of bad winters and Russian sanctions etc.) and they use together with hotel owners refugees as way to support those suffering business that would actual go out of business if they didn't have this change to house refugees. (I can't say if situation is same in Sweden, but I would not be surprised if that was the case). And then there are some municipalities that have suffered from vacation and they want those refugees centers just so that they get more people so that government needs to give them more services. In sort refugees are used as political and economical pawns by some our politician to achieve some of their goals without thinking what it would mean to bring 1000 people in town of 3000 people which then creates set of its own problems that need to be solved and what some other politicians then use to further their own political goals. But at the end refugees have turn out to be just same as everybody else, pawns on politicians gameboards.
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More relevant are the statistics on who's committing the crimes. Unfortunately Sweden hasn't updated those since 2001.
"More relevant are the statistics on who's committing the crimes."
Those don't tell who are committing the crimes but how probable it is from person from said demographic to be a criminal.
You should also put sizes of those demographics and number of crimes they have committed as whole to show what is size of their slice in the crime pie and to see what kind statistical effects one person causes.
Is this seriously the argument that you want to put forth?
You have several groups of people
One has 8 million people from which 5% commit crimes = 400 000 criminals
Then you have second group of people that consist of 200 000 people from which 8% commit crimes = 16 000 criminals
Then you have third group of people that consist of 3 000 people from which 22% commit crimes = 660 criminals
Who are the people that are actually committing crimes in this equation?
Like for example how much of total crimes you are able to prevent by focusing on those 3000 people that have very high probably to be criminals.
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More relevant are the statistics on who's committing the crimes. Unfortunately Sweden hasn't updated those since 2001.
"More relevant are the statistics on who's committing the crimes."
Those don't tell who are committing the crimes but how probable it is from person from said demographic to be a criminal.
You should also put sizes of those demographics and number of crimes they have committed as whole to show what is size of their slice in the crime pie and to see what kind statistical effects one person causes.
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Trump seems to on mission to prove that Sweden is bad country, I guess that it will be in his next
ban,sorry I mean immigration restriction listhttps://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/833681539997253636?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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Sweden's crime statistics from last year don't tell about alarming rise of crime rates they seem to be quite stagnant
http://www.thelocal.se/20170112/swedens-2016-crime-stats-analyzed
Although with sexual crimes, researchers aren't sure why their rates have gone somewhat back and forth in past couple years.
The Local also published article by couple Swedish journalists that say that some of the claims that Horowitz made don't check out.
http://www.thelocal.se/20170220/sweden-facts-a-closer-look-at-filmmaker-ami-horowitz-claims
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I just meant it was the most recent one, and particularly blatant. Btw, Trump was talking about crime and terrorism in Europe, and was referring to a report about crime in Sweden he saw on Fox the night before. He never said anything about terrorist attack in Sweden, it was just assumed by the press. True that he tends to ramble a bit and confuses people.
Which is why he decided to use phrase, "You look at what's happening in Germany, you look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden, who would believe this. Sweden. They took in large numbers. They're having problems like they never thought possible,"
EDIT: It is easy mistake to make to think that he may have referred something else than report what has been happening in Sweden in past 4 years.
Also Trump defense is something that people in media and social media suggested after his speech, so he may have just picked it as his defense when he didn't find anything better
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39020962 -
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/immigration-and-crime/
Speaking of immigrants and crime...
This is useless study.
First it only shows the distribution in crime.
Where is the "per capita" data? In any country you will have more natives committing crimes just by sheer numbers.
So let's put this numbers in perspective:
According to this chart around 40% of crimes are committed by immigrants (first and second generation), but in US this group is only 12-15% of the population.
So it seems this group is HIGHLY criminal, because 12-15% of the population is responsible for 40% of the crimes!
Second prevalence of each group involved in at least 1 crime?
Another WTF? So it doesn't matter if 10 natives each commit 1 crime each and 1 second generation commits 10 crimes it wouldn't affect the results of this study?
In the previous 12 months.
Seriously? That's not great time frame to have a thorough study on the case.
Chart don't have information that you think it has, because it is chart about behavioral pattern it doesn't have any information how many crimes each groups have committed, but how probably it is that person from that group has committed at least one crime.
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http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/immigration-and-crime/
Speaking of immigrants and crime...
Interesting but that's US migration profile.
If anyone has numbers on say French Algerian migrants that would be more relevant.
Here is one study, but you need to pay to read it
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Trump has been in office for a month, Obama for 8 years. So we know exactly what Obama's policies have led to.It amazes me how WoD sounds exactly like all the liberals freaking out about Trump whenever he talks about Obama. Is there any awareness of that?
Yeah they lead to Trump taking office and I agree that is very bad.
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Not really equivalent, Northern Ireland obviously an insurgency problem, motorcycle gangs aren't a neighborhood, doubt romani are a whole neighborhood but again an example of an ethnic-cultural enclave, although a minor one.
By telling lies and exploiting such incidents as Zimmerman and Ferguson, and supporting BLM. I don't ever remember such anti-police riots here before (there were in the sixties, but that was a different situation).How did Obama make them more hostile? I keep reading that as if cops and minorities were cool with each other before. High profile events and everything being recorded probably are more impactful.
I suppose if you go back far enough, again talking about an immigrant enclave. I don't know if they were factual, or motivated by racism.Examples?
"”Man riskerar att bli skjuten om man går dit, eller rånad, av kriminella element. Det är områden dit polisen knappt själva vågar gå och folk som är där är annorlunda.”"
"You risk getting shot if you go there, or robbed, by criminals. It's areas where the police themselves hardly dare venture, and people there are different."
What the middle and upper class said about some areas in Stockholm and Gothenburg in the 30's. Filled with "jews, gypsies, russians and such suspicious filth"
Romani families like to live in same neighborhoods and other Finns don't like live in same neighborhoods were there are Romani people, because we are nice like that. And situation is similar or even worse in other parts of Europe.
Actually said motorcycle gangs own whole neighborhoods, which is why it is difficult to get rid of them. And why they still exists, with their drug selling, extortion etc. business.
Those groups have their neighborhoods in much tighter control than any immigrant population that we have.
Also ethnic-cultural enclave what this had to do with that "Europe didn't have them (hostile neighborhoods towards police) though until mass migration". Also minor one, there are at least couple million Romani people in Europe.
EDIT: I also wonder what you think is happening in immigrant heavy neighborhoods if you think that they are more scary place for police than neighborhoods where gangs fight with each other and with police using military grade weapons?
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Examples?
Northern Ireland is quite famous from having neighborhoods that aren't that police friendly.
Here in Finland we have our Romani neighbors and our motorcycle gangs don't like police that much, especially in mid 90s when they were in war with each other and were able to access weapons like M72 LAWs their neighborhoods weren't places were police went gladly.
EDIT: If we go little more back in Finland's history. In there was in 1800s group called Puukkojunkarit (knife-fighters) that terrorize big part of Western Finland.
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Don't think they're exactly no-go, but they're hostile to the police, and have become a lot more hostile thanks to Obama's demagoguery and lies. Europe didn't have them though until mass migration. So the causes are different but the result is the same, ethnic-cultural enclaves hostile to the society at large.The US has "no-go" zones, they are called the projects. They don't have anything to do with immigration or Islam, they have to do with economics.
Also I totally disagree about children being a sign of wealth. Most societies at seems to run in the opposite, the poor pump out children at an alarming rate while the wealthy tend to keep their families small.
There has been areas that are hostile towards police in Europe as long as there has been police forces in Europe.
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The US has "no-go" zones, they are called the projects. They don't have anything to do with immigration or Islam, they have to do with economics.
Also I totally disagree about children being a sign of wealth. Most societies at seems to run in the opposite, the poor pump out children at an alarming rate while the wealthy tend to keep their families small.
Currently that is the projection model that has happened everywhere. Richer state becomes lower its birthrates become. Some states have achieved situation where their birth rates are lower than their population decreasing rate, Japan is one example of such state. There are some states that have achieved this status via artificial means, like for example China, where their one child policy has lead in population decrease.
Also inside of local populations poorer families usually have more kids than rich families, but that isn't as universal rule as birthrates dropping when general wealth of state increases.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4255510/
https://www.med.uottawa.ca/sim/data/Birth_Rate_Decline_e.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
total fertility rate (TFR) versus human development index (HDI), Source: Human Development Report 2009
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Police is public service agency that is empowered by state to enforce laws and limit civil disorder. So police is part of system that controls the state aka government, but not the government aka ministry, a collective group of people that exercises executive authority in a state.
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At least Russia's foreign minister Lavrov tells how we are starting time after West and people should to prepare to new world order.
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"The news is fake because so much of the news is fake" - D. J. Trump
Also "Leaks real, the news is fake" - D. J. Trump
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lol, the swedes on the board are so swedish that it hurts. There's no swedish people, no swedish culture and blondes will diminish, but not because sweden is becoming less swedish.
It is over 1000 years long tradition to import new people in Sweden, meaning that is their culture. They import people and ideas from other cultures and then say that they are theirs. They have done it from dawn of the time
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It isn't illegal for Russia to hack the DNC, as Russia isn't bound by US laws. Same as it isn't/ wasn't illegal for the US to 'promote homosexuality' just because that is illegal in Russia. Won't stop the US from trying to impose their laws, of course, but Russia's response is and would be that the US can go asterisk themselves same as the US would tell Russia if they tried to enforce their anti gay laws in the US. And if it were Rich doing the leaking then it may have been illegal- far more difficult to prove it though, since he had legit access to the info- but it certainly wasn't hacking, or treason.
As for the rest, you're trying to make Trump a special case. If Schumer or Pelosi were appalled!!! at the DNC/ Hillary leaks and are smugly parroting the current ones that is every bit as undermining as Trump doing it, and every bit as undermining as Obama saying he supported whistle blowers then prosecuting more than all other Presidents combined (iirc) under the espionage act. Truth is that everyone loves a leak that benefits them, and is appalled!!! at a leak that doesn't. Trump is no special case there, he's absolutely par for the course.
I don't really see how it makes it easier for intelligence communities to influence either. They're going to do it because they want Trump gone, have the power to, the only people who can stop them rely on them for the information needed to stop them and there's no prospect of the media refusing to print unsupported leaks they agree with. Trump being a hypocrite about supporting/ opposing leaks is a parallel issue that is only likely to be significant to those who already don't like him- same as the D hypocrisy is only significant to those who don't like them.
By international agreements that Russia has signed, legality hacking that targets computers in USA is determined by USA laws. Which of course don't necessary mean much as Russia isn't in habit giving its citizens to USA to be tried.
Nah, not if it's the Russian State doing it. Even for private citizens extradition itself requires the crime to be illegal in Russia as well, albeit that can be waived.
The direct equivalent would be Russia saying that CIA hacking in Russia is illegal. Well yeah, it may be in Russia, but it isn't a crime in the US and there isn't merely no chance of an extradition whatever reciprocal treaties may say there's no chance of, well, anything except incredulous laughter if they complained about it. It's also particularly problematic when you have the NSA rather obviously hacking/ intercepting the Russian Ambassador's communications- completely against the Vienna Convention, of course, but you'd be naive if you thought it didn't happen.
Trump is special case, because he is the most visible politician in world currently and he is the leader of USA. Other politicians behaving idiotically is bad, but when such visible leader does it it is much more worse. Because his behavior and attitude is what everybody sees. Pelosi and Schumer and rest of democrats in House are just some within many that don't all share similar views. There isn't similar opposition for Trump as he is in position above all others.
I don't believe that intelligence communities want Trump gone, they just play their own power play where they show that one don't want them as their enemy. As in past Trump has spoken quite lot against intelligence community and how its should be in better lead and otherwise spoken in undermining tone about them.
Well, if all the intelligence communities want is a compliant leader who does what they want I guess it's all good then? If one were to be facetious one might mention that all Putin wants is a compliant leader who does what he wants, as well...
That kind of thinking is far more sinister than Trump being a blowhard, because Trump is both limited in power and is an actual elected official who will be gone in 4/8 years. These guys are neither elected nor are they limited in their power or in the time frame of their power. You don't get any less limited than trying to kneecap your country's leader as there isn't any higher target to go for. And if they get away with it once they'll do it every single time, it can hardly be claimed they'd stop at the President either since- and I know I'm repeating myself- there is no greater target to go for.
(I don't give an asterisk if Putin tried interfering here, that's expected and the best defence to that is having a proper democracy where his potential influence never rises above margin of error level. If our spies tried interfering though? I'd have a hard time describing that as anything less than a clandestine coup and outright treason, and would be tempted to suggest actual hanging for anyone caught doing it, pour decourager les autres. Hi GCSB/ SIS, hope you enjoyed my post)
Russian state don't do anything, it is people employed by Russian state and those people are committing crimes in USA if they are hacking computers that locate in USA. But of course them to face consequences of their actions is slim to none as there is quite minor change that Russia will ever hand over them to USA even if USA would be able to actually give Russia prove that those people committed such crime. It is like CIA agents that commit crimes in other countries in order to ensure that USA's interest will come true or USA's soldiers that commit war crimes who will not ever face international courts because USA protects its own people when they commit crimes in its name. But that don't make what these people do any less crime or any more legal in places where those acts have been committed.
Like for example there is Finnish hacker that USA wants to try for crimes he committed, but we haven't yet decided if we actually want to give USA our citizen. And there are people in Europe that have committed such crimes like rape in USA but European courts refuse to give them for USA official for trialed there, because their crimes aren't serious enough to warrant such actions.
Intelligence communities want compliant leaders that isn't new thing, neither is their power plays during administration changes. Trump just seem to be from weaker end of leaders when it comes to handle such actions. But like you said it is USA State actions there is nothing to worry about it is perfectly legal
. But more seriously bad behavior from intelligence communities domestic or foreign don't excuse Trump's actions as leader of US executive branch and leader of US intelligence community. His actions give room for corruption in agencies in US executive branch and it is his job to keep those agencies work for people of USA. Meaning that if they leak information that they should not then that is Trump's fault, because he is the boss and he carries the responsibility for actions done by his agencies addition to those done by himself.What comes to Putin he is leader that puts Russian's interest first, although for him it usually means his interests first, because for him they are same thing even if all the Russians don't agree. Which is important to remember in any negotiations with Russia and speculations what Russia may do. Putin is mastered art to say one thing and do another thing and same time point finger to third thing. He also has somewhat similar attitude towards international agreements as Trump says he has, if they don't benefit Russia then following them is optional.
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It isn't illegal for Russia to hack the DNC, as Russia isn't bound by US laws. Same as it isn't/ wasn't illegal for the US to 'promote homosexuality' just because that is illegal in Russia. Won't stop the US from trying to impose their laws, of course, but Russia's response is and would be that the US can go asterisk themselves same as the US would tell Russia if they tried to enforce their anti gay laws in the US. And if it were Rich doing the leaking then it may have been illegal- far more difficult to prove it though, since he had legit access to the info- but it certainly wasn't hacking, or treason.
As for the rest, you're trying to make Trump a special case. If Schumer or Pelosi were appalled!!! at the DNC/ Hillary leaks and are smugly parroting the current ones that is every bit as undermining as Trump doing it, and every bit as undermining as Obama saying he supported whistle blowers then prosecuting more than all other Presidents combined (iirc) under the espionage act. Truth is that everyone loves a leak that benefits them, and is appalled!!! at a leak that doesn't. Trump is no special case there, he's absolutely par for the course.
I don't really see how it makes it easier for intelligence communities to influence either. They're going to do it because they want Trump gone, have the power to, the only people who can stop them rely on them for the information needed to stop them and there's no prospect of the media refusing to print unsupported leaks they agree with. Trump being a hypocrite about supporting/ opposing leaks is a parallel issue that is only likely to be significant to those who already don't like him- same as the D hypocrisy is only significant to those who don't like them.
By international agreements that Russia has signed, legality hacking that targets computers in USA is determined by USA laws. Which of course don't necessary mean much as Russia isn't in habit giving its citizens to USA to be tried.
Trump is special case, because he is the most visible politician in world currently and he is the leader of USA. Other politicians behaving idiotically is bad, but when such visible leader does it it is much more worse. Because his behavior and attitude is what everybody sees. Pelosi and Schumer and rest of democrats in House are just some within many that don't all share similar views. There isn't similar opposition for Trump as he is in position above all others.
I don't believe that intelligence communities want Trump gone, they just play their own power play where they show that one don't want them as their enemy. As in past Trump has spoken quite lot against intelligence community and how its should be in better lead and otherwise spoken in undermining tone about them.
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oh god, Sweden keeps giving xD
https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2017/02/14/proposed-camel-center-slammed-in-sweden
While I don't really want to get tied up in the minutiae of camel farms in Sweden and other such things Daily Sabah is an abysmally bad newspaper. It won't take a metaphorical crap without written in triplicate approval from Erdogan.
First media don't write enough articles about leaked information and then couple months later they write too much and need to apologize? No wonder that US media is bit out there.
Well yeah, and you have the people who were appalled!!! at the Hillary/ DNC leaks who are cheering the current leaks on. Plenty of hypocrisy to go around there, if the circumstances were equivalent, which they aren't.
There's a big difference between Hillary/ DNC stuff being leaked by someone be it the mysteriously, unsolvedly, murdered Seth Rich or Vladimir Putin wearing a Groucho Marx moustache as it was information from a private institution to which the leaker either had legit access in Rich or was part of a hack by a 3rd party state which has no obligation to respect US laws. In the current case(s) it's both clear political meddling by, effectively, a state institution (individuals within, but you'd suspect that the leakers could be caught were it a priority for the leadership) against the political leadership of said state and is also illegal leaking of classified material in many cases. The overwhelming impression is that the 'intelligence community' doesn't want to share with Trump not because they think he's a security risk but because they want to monopolise the ability to leak and limit it to anti Trump stuff. They've been leaking like a sieve for the past couple of months, after all.
Anyone and everyone should be concerned about the intelligence community influencing politics. Their power over the general population and politicians is an order of magnitude greater than any influence Russia could possibly have even in McCain and Graham's worst nightmare (or Raytheon et al think tanks' push marketing, at least).
In both cases leaks were illegal no doubt of that and in both cases leaks were politically motivated and done in purpose to effect in US politics no doubt. But my point was about Trumps attitude towards media reporting said leaks, where first he is very pro when it is his benefit, but then when situation is opposite he is more than ready to blame media reporting about said leaks. Such inconsistency just works in benefit of said leakers because it moves blame from leakers to media reporting about leaks. It also make people attitude towards leaks become more jovial and accepting, which makes it easier for intelligence communities influence politics by leaking stuff.
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Well, I think I have put enough effort to support that article, I don't see any purpose to convincing you that its was criticised by immigrants that its racist. If you don't want to know it its your choice
I will just copy paste from google translate for you and I am done with this topic:
The idea behind the project creator Geza Nagy, supported by the city, is that the park will become one of the major tourist destinations of the city - and that creates for immigrants from the Middle East and Somalia jobs.
"The biggest source of income is tourism park. We assume that the local park use for promotional photographs Volvo and other Swedish companies are also counting with fashion shows, "said Nagy local sheet Göteborg-Posten. He added that the immigrants who live in the district have "perfect knowledge of how to behave and train camels."
Camel park is part of a larger project to create a zone with a minimum production of greenhouse gases. At the end of last year was the Gothenburg City Hall confessed subsidy of 13 million Swedish crowns from EU funds. The money was still used, inter alia, on the road to Germany and Kazakhstan, where the future employees learn training camels.
Against the project, but also expressed Holmertzová Gun, head of Caritas, one of the major charities in the country. "It's absurd vision. The people who created it, Andgered want to change a kind of circus with exotic animals and immigrants, which would have outsiders come to see them, "he said. According to Marie Lexhagenové, an expert on tourism at the University, "not after the camel as a tourist attraction in Sweden just demand."Project while also angered many local immigrants. "If I wanted to work with animals or working on plantations, so they go back to their homeland, to Namibia. Here is the money needed for education, housing and real jobs, "she told a reporter Götenborgs-Posten Florence Hansen, originally from Namibia."It is complete nonsense," assessed the project briefly Bert Karlsson, former deputy. "A ride on a camel, this is something that will undergo once on holiday in a country where almost nothing else to do. Once you pass and then after that never had much to be desired, "he added.source:Are you sure about that name Holmertzová Gun
President of Caritas International is Cardinal Luis Antonio Gokim Tagle and Henrik Alberius is Chairman of Caritas Sweden
Also Marie Lexhagenové seems to be off
Do you seriously think I am making all this up or what?
I asked are you sure about the name Holmertzová Gun which is somewhat different from Gun Holmertz
It seems that Gun Holmertz isn't head of Caritas, but she is founder of Caritas Caritas Gothenburg and Angered (sub organization of Caritas Sweden, which is sub organisation of Caritas International).
This quote seem to be against their general urban development project not the mentioned camel park.
"It's absurd vision. The people who created it, Andgered want to change a kind of circus with exotic animals and immigrants, which would have outsiders come to see them, "
http://www.gp.se/nyheter/göteborg/gun-holmertz-ett-helt-absurt-projekt-1.4148588
Population: "Clean racism"
The project may be harsh criticism from residents who call it fuzzy and offensive.
- If I had wanted to work with animals or crops, I had gone back to Namibia. The money is needed for education, housing and real jobs. We do not want more animals here. We immigrants are already stigmatized group - this project is pure racism, says Florence Hansen, accommodation in Angered.
- This feels frivolous, says Issmet Elsalihie.
Even Gun Holmertz Caritas in Hjällbo directed similar criticisms. She calls the project a "circus" that has a "colonial mindset".
Read more: Gun Holmertz: "Would make Angered a circus"
Something Dan Melander not agree with.
- This is definitely not a circus, and we do not claim that this is the solution for the entire northeast. This is just about to test new ways to build economies.
http://www.mistraurbanfutures.org/en/urban-research-urban-rural-gothenburg-stadslandet
So they think that their Green urban project in immigrant suburban is racist, that sounds more like swedish thing to do.
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Well, I think I have put enough effort to support that article, I don't see any purpose to convincing you that its was criticised by immigrants that its racist. If you don't want to know it its your choice
I will just copy paste from google translate for you and I am done with this topic:
The idea behind the project creator Geza Nagy, supported by the city, is that the park will become one of the major tourist destinations of the city - and that creates for immigrants from the Middle East and Somalia jobs.
"The biggest source of income is tourism park. We assume that the local park use for promotional photographs Volvo and other Swedish companies are also counting with fashion shows, "said Nagy local sheet Göteborg-Posten. He added that the immigrants who live in the district have "perfect knowledge of how to behave and train camels."
Camel park is part of a larger project to create a zone with a minimum production of greenhouse gases. At the end of last year was the Gothenburg City Hall confessed subsidy of 13 million Swedish crowns from EU funds. The money was still used, inter alia, on the road to Germany and Kazakhstan, where the future employees learn training camels.
Against the project, but also expressed Holmertzová Gun, head of Caritas, one of the major charities in the country. "It's absurd vision. The people who created it, Andgered want to change a kind of circus with exotic animals and immigrants, which would have outsiders come to see them, "he said. According to Marie Lexhagenové, an expert on tourism at the University, "not after the camel as a tourist attraction in Sweden just demand."Project while also angered many local immigrants. "If I wanted to work with animals or working on plantations, so they go back to their homeland, to Namibia. Here is the money needed for education, housing and real jobs, "she told a reporter Götenborgs-Posten Florence Hansen, originally from Namibia."It is complete nonsense," assessed the project briefly Bert Karlsson, former deputy. "A ride on a camel, this is something that will undergo once on holiday in a country where almost nothing else to do. Once you pass and then after that never had much to be desired, "he added.source:Are you sure about that name Holmertzová Gun
President of Caritas International is Cardinal Luis Antonio Gokim Tagle and Henrik Alberius is Chairman of Caritas Sweden
Also Marie Lexhagenové seems to be off
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All you are presenting is already in that first article I posted, I also spend time to translate you my original article, you have NAMES of people who told its racist including some head of charity organisation and real immigrants. What is you point?
Sweden's plans to build a camel park in the Swedish city of Gothenburg, which it hopes will create jobs for migrants, have been slammed as racist by immigrant advocates as reported by the Swedish daily newspaper Göteborgs-Posten.
It is that part that I can't find
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Here is article from Göteborgs-Posten that seems to be the one that Daily Sabah's article uses as its source
http://www.gp.se/nyheter/göteborg/bert-om-kamelparken-måste-vara-ett-skämt-1.4150619
Bert on the Camel Park: "Must be a joke"
GOTHENBURG
Gothenburg city and other donors together account for over one million crowns. But the entrepreneur Bert Karlsson and a tourist scholars condemn the planned Camel Park in Angered in advance. - Are you kidding me? It will never work out, says Bert Karlsson.
Michael Verdicchio
05:00 - February 9, 2017
Plans to make Angered a tourist resort with camels believe entrepreneur Bert Karlsson not at all.- This must be a joke. Are you kidding me? says Bert Karlsson when he hears about the plans and continues:
- This is so ****ing stupid. That's what you have to do on the tourist trip abroad when there is nothing else to do. You ride once and then you will never be back. I condemn it totally. It will never work in reality.
Read also: Million Contribution - to tourism and camel milk
Neither Maria Lexhagen, tourism researcher at Mid Sweden University, believes in the idea.
- I do not see that there is no great demand for camels - especially in Sweden. It will very much to for something like this to succeed and go around financially, says Maria Lexhagen.
Granted half a million
One of the latest entries Angered camel center received was from Gothenburg Social Resource Management last year in the form of integration funds of SEK 500 000.- We thought it was an exciting integration projects which could also attract visitors to Angered. It was also promising because it could lead to jobs, says Marina Johansson (S), Chairman of the Social resource committee.
But Bert Karlsson is critical.
- There are obviously people who do not know what they are doing. The granting money is no contractors. But the municipality love the word integration projects. Do you say the word integration, you can get how much money any time. This should be stopped before it even starts, says Bert Karlsson.
"No expert on camels"
The official who investigated camel center defends the decision, however.- I'm no expert on camels but I thought there was a basis. Could this lead to people getting a job, perhaps especially Somalis who are far outside the labor market, then I think it's worth testing. Maybe I am naive, but I stand in that case, says Lena Salo, development of social resource management.
Marina Johansson also defends the project.
- If we grant money for something that does not succeed, it's something we can learn from then. One should also remember that the municipality has the opportunity to request a refund if they are not used to what we intended, says Marina Johansson.
Here is another article that seems to be cited
https://www.gp.se/nyheter/göteborg/miljonbidrag-till-kamelturism-och-mjölk-1.4150581
Large grant - to tourism and camel milk
GOTHENBURG Over one million crowns in taxes and contributions have been granted, but there is still no trace of the promised camel Centre in Angered. Despite lacking a building permit has the money gone to the fence, souvenirs and import of camel milk. - It is said that milk helps with autism, says Councilman Malin Larsson (MP).
Michael Verdicchio
05:00 - February 9, 2017
When the GP meets the initiator Géza Nagy, he talks about the grand plans he worked for several years. The stables and a paddock to be built and a pair of camels and alpacas will be purchased for the center, which is planned just behind Angered arena. Inside the camel center, visitors will be able to both pet and ride on the camels.- The largest source of income will be from tourism. There is a huge interest in camels both in Sweden and abroad. We expect tourists from around the world, including from Japan and China, says Géza Nagy also has other plans on revenues:
- We think that Volvo or other companies can photograph their products with camels. We can also have fashion shows and selling various camel products.
"Politicians very positive"
According Géza Nagy, revenues will lead to the 20 people hired, although some will come through labor market measures. The main objective of the project will be the integration and to get people into jobs.- Politicians have been very positive about this. They really believe in our idea of making Angered a tourist resort.
In October 2015 reported Angered camel center to the aggregate value of all contributions and support money you received - including from the City of Gothenburg, Västra Götaland region and Jobs - amounted to over a million. A few months later, you also told that the City of Gothenburg decided to donate another 500 000 in 2016 in the form of integration funds.
Need more contributions
More contributions are needed, however. According to Nagy, the construction of stables, paddocks and roads cost about two million.The other problem is the building permit. Although it received permission to lease the land, has so far only received an oral promise of building permits from an official.
Read also: Bert Karlsson on the Camel Park: "Must be a joke"
However, it has not stopped the camel center from operating. Among other things, they stängslat the land for SEK 125 000, went on study tours in Germany and Kazakhstan, as well bought souvenirs in the form of alpaca wool, plush toys and t-shirts. It has also imported 1500 liters of camel milk from the Netherlands sold to private individuals.
Camel milk - good for autism?
One who helped with milk sales Malin Larsson, ecologists Semitic Councillor in Skara, in addition to having been a member of the camel association also granted money to do research on camel posture in Sweden. On the Facebook page "I want camel milk NOW" which is followed by 73 people, Malin Larsson spent several posts advertising the center's camel milk. The most popular post has videos liked by three people.- There is research that shows that camel milk is especially useful. They include taking blood samples from children with autism and found that the benefits of drinking camel's milk, says Malin Larsson and clarify later that the studies done have been on a smaller scale.
Illegal claims
When GP examines a camel center's advertising posters hung up in Angered, it is not only that the milk is said to be good for autism, but also that it helps against tuberculosis, diabetes, liver disease, Crohn's disease, and that it prevents tumors. Illegal claims under both the NFA and the MPA.- It is not allowed to advertise food with medical claims unless they are approved as drugs. As far as I know, camel milk is not an approved drug, says Jenny Johansson, food inspector at the NFA.
Believe in the idea
Malin Larsson said later that she had not been involved in the actual poster and that she is no longer with the association. She also says that she only tipped off about the sale.- There is a clear need to market it properly, says Malin Larsson.
But Géza Nagy defend themselves.
- We have not made any aggressive marketing for this. But there are things that are discussed in various forums online, says Géza Nagy.
According to Nagy, the milk will now be out of stock. The profit was about 10 000.
How will you get this to go around?
- It looks good. Certainly, we need to seek more contributions to be able to walk around with it all, but in the long run, I believe we can become self-sufficient.
Update: After the GP's publication, Malin Larsson heard of and clarified that she did not think that camel milk is used as a medicine and research base is too small to be used as marketing.
- It can be downright dangerous if people think they can cure serious diseases just by drinking camel's milk, says Malin Larsson.After the GP's article published Malin Larsson following response.
I try to find if they have any article about accusation of racism towards the park, as far I haven't find any
Politics 2017 Part 3
in Way Off-Topic
Posted · Edited by Elerond
Do you think it is different for rape victims if they are raped by Finnish or Swedish person? Because absolutely majority of rapes in Finland have committed by people belonging in those groups. Meaning is it more important to prevent rapes done by foreign people or rapes in general?
I mean there was 931 cases of rape in 2015 from which 15 was committed by refugees (according to police).