[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Edit: incidentally, the P:E BB is about 5% of the game as well. Which makes this a pretty fair comparison actually...

OK! Fair enough!

 

My conclusion of POE:

 

1) Spell system: Completely soulless, 2 dimensional garbage. Even Skyrim has a bigger variety of spells

2) Combat: Typical Obsidian fare. ie. Terrible. Induces sleep and boredom,

2) NPCs/Companion depth: Non existant. The CD case for my copy of BG2 has more personality than BB_Fighter, BB-Rogue, BB_Priest, and BB_Wizard. Shame on Obsidian.

3) Quest density/flow: terrible. 4 quests, barely fleshed out.

4) Maps/dungeon design. 5/10. Small and mostly lifeless. Found myself skipping the Stonewall Gorge dungeon on my last playthrough because.... pointless and dull.

5) Loot itemization: What loot itemization? Raise your hand if that sword of +10 accuracy excited you.

 

So that's it for PoE for me. They've failed already. </PrimeJunta Logic>

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

But you weren't right all along. From an Objective standpoint, one cannot make the specific conclusions you're making (not accurately at least), from playing just 5% of the game.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Bottom line: despite the promising start (slaver quest, de'Arnise keep)  I'm finding BG 2 more frustrating than fun, so I'm ending this Let's Play (and my attempt at it) here. The things that killed it for me are:

• Athkatla's content density: the way every bystander is pushing a quest on me, sometimes even in my face, including those scripted, timed events, from party members and elsewhere. I don't know what's important and what's not, and feel like I'm being yanked on a leash in different directions. I love it that there's a lot of content, but let me find it, don't push it on me like a bunch of panhandlers.
• Certain features of IE mechanics, compounded by the limited control I have over party composition. For example, it got really tedious to cast one Cure Light Wounds after another, so after a while I was sliding back to clicking Q-Rest(-L if monsters showed up) just because it was easier. I.e., between tedious and degenerate, I slid to degenerate. Other similarly irritating mechanics were the inventory system, the stealth system, the chance to fail to transcribe a spell, and pathfinding combined with constrained maps. Also: rock-paper-scissors magic. It felt like I had the wrong spells memorized -- or learned -- most of the time. It's as if the game wants me to change my spell loadout for each part of each quest, but at the same time it punishes me for resting (wandering monsters).
• The quests and writing just aren't all that interesting. All the quests I did were completely linear; the only choice involved was to take it or leave it. Choices in alignment and class were not supported or even acknowledged. In IWD I didn't care because the combat was so much fun and the maps were so well designed, but with much rougher encounters, areas that don't make sense, and cheesy writing... not worth it.
• A quite a lot of the content was save-die-and-reload. The golem fight in de'Arnise Keep, the beholders/gauth, and that Kangaxx guardian lich. Maybe I was underleveled for some of it. If so, how would I know? And how do I find the content that's suitable for my level? The game doesn't tell me, and I do not find it enjoyable to go partway through a quest, discover it's not fun, and go do something else. When I start on something I want to finish it. And I want the game to communicate to me when I'm going off the beaten path and about to try something stupidly dangerous. BG2 does not do it in any way. I am totes cool with someone else liking that, but I do not.

So that's that for BG2 and me. I'll go back to Heart of Winter at some point; it looked promising and if it's set up the same way as IWD I will probably like it a lot more. At this time, BG1 and BG2 are clearly my least favorite IE games. I enjoyed even IWD2 more than this, IWD a LOT more than this, and PS:T is, of course, PS:T.

 

Thanks for following, everyone. I have high hopes that I'll like P:E more than this -- not a very high bar to clear in my case.

 

Surprise, surprise.

 

This is basically what you've always said about Baldur's Gate 2 - and specifically its features (save or die; hard counters, writing) every time me and you butt heads on the topic. So, why didn't you just post all this in your Op from the start?

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Anyone doubt BG2 will still be better than PoE in every way?

Obsidian has a more talented creative writing staff than even the old Bioware. We all know that. So it's a safe bet that everything directly related to the written word will probably be better in PoE.

 

But what significance will that have to the big picture, exactly? PoE is not designed to be another Planescape: Torment, where gameplay/combat are peripheral things, forced into background and thus, the stunningly great writing can carry it all the way. NO, there's a different design at play here. PoE is built to be a combat focused game with BG2-like exploration. Which means good writing will only take it so far. And if it can't match BG2's game play, character building, wanderlusting etc, then people are going to conclude that it's not as good.

 

But really, that's not much of a criticism, is it. NO game is as good as BG2.

 

PS: (BruceVC): "BG2 had romances and PoE won't, therefore, there is no doubt that BG2 is going to be a better game." lol

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

I'm an Inquisitor. Ever heard of undercover cops? What if my intention was to investigate both groups in order to find out enough about them to bring them both down?

I beg your pardon...? Did your God or your Order tell you to investigate the Docks? Because those are the two entities a paladin must answer to. On the other hand, Yoshimo is a purely materialistic thief (and you'll learn later that he's even worse than that). As an Inquisitor, you F*cked up already by agreeing to take his advise. The fact that you later met Renal Bloodscalp, and agreed to focus your Righteous holy warring ways, covertly, upon one of his employees....well.... Suffice to say that someone's "Role Playing" could use some work.

 

BG2 is positively filled to the rafters with Paladin-ish things to do and people to help. But Assisting the Don of Athkatla's Mafia in any way is not one of them. lol

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Also i liked that i had quests piling atop one another every corner,

Yes. This.

 

I (now) understand (from dwelling here on this forum) that this is, apparently, matter of taste, but a few years ago such a thing would have been unthinkable to me. How can ANYONE not love that overwhelming feeling? That feeling that comes when dozens of quests are thrown at you and you suddenly think to yourself. Oh man, this game must be truly massive.... I'll be going everywhere and doing everything for months!

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Again: if the best option is not to take or complete a quest, that is indicative of shoddy design.

Not really. Not unless every single quest is that way. Which simply isn't the case in BG2, at all. In fact, it's not even the case in in that very questline. Wait till you see Maevar's final task. There's at least 4 different ways to solve it.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

The Cowled Wizards represent the law in Athkatla.

That means exactly nothing. Especially to a Paladin. It's like going to some drug infested slum in Colombia or some other cesspool in Central America and declaring that the warlords that run the place represent the law.

 

But you're right anyway by pointing out that aspects of Mae'var's/Renal's quest aren't exactly kosher for a Paladin. Because they simply aren't. But don't pretend that you were forced or "railroaded" in any way. The whole thing is a side quest, and you can easily skip it and STILL streamroll through the entire rest of the game with no lack of super-overpoweredness. (both XP-wise and loot-wise)

 

PS: Wait you're a Paladin. Try entering Rayic's home and casting Detect Evil. I might be wrong, but I'm fairly certain he'll glow all shiny and red.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

You mean it's like real life? True story. My Car's license plates expire this month. I wanted to go yesterday to get my car inspected and re-new the plates. But I couldn't, because I had to work. And now it's Saturday and the DMV is closed for the weekend. Guess I'll have to postpone that quest... until later.

 

In any case, Yeah, if you wish to remain true to the Paladin role playing, there's really no rational way to justify doing the Mae'var quest at all. So I'd skip it. And Edwin is quite evil himself. A true paladin wouldn't associate with him. Minsc and Jaheira should have told you that.

 

But for what it's worth, Rayic Gethras is NOT an innocent. He's one of the Cowled Wizards. You know, a member of the group that captured your sister because Irenicus demanded it.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Funny thing about those companion timed quests.

 

-When a game doesn't have them, it gets criticized for its bad writing and its lack of urgency. And companions are dismissed as "not having lives/issues of their own."

 

-But when a game puts them in, suddenly it's: "I can't stand this quest-dumping design" and "Sheesh, I only have 5 party members, how come this stuff is happening so frequently?"

 

 

Thing is, I see both sides of the argument. But both sides are whinging over nothing. Companion quest urgency in BG2 is an illusion. Don't want to go visit Aerie's annoying foster daddy? Don't. Eventually (after like, a few weeks) Aerie will leave your party. And...So what? Just go back to the circus tent and re-recruit her. Problem solved. On the other hand, Urgency, when done right, is a wonderful thing, but it's also the ultimate Role playing tool and thus it's up to the player to Role Play that Urgency, and BG2 caters quite well to players who do. (for example, The Rescue Imoen quest. it can be done fairly quickly because the game lets you raise 15,000gp without ever leaving the copper coronet.)

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

(I'm also a little tired of this "If you're not having fun it's YOUR fault" line.)

Except I did NOT say that. And I would never say such a thing, since getting 'sucker punched' by the unknown can actually be pretty darn fun (Oh, to play BG2 for the first time again. I envy people like you!). I specifically said that if you're getting your ass wiped it's your fault. Which it is. There are multiple solutions to absolutely every scenario in this game, and I can *prove* it. Thus anyone who claims otherwise....with comments like "I can't do this"! And "This is "unfair!" is, in fact, attempting to blame the game for his own failures.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

See, I have a problem with this. Design-wise I mean.

 

I really liked the de'Arnise keep overall. It was challenging but fair. This, on the other hand, feels unfair:

 

(1) The quest is lobbed at you the first time you visit the Temple District, with an additional "Don't wait too long, this is urgent."

 

(2) Massed gauth and beholders are overwhelming, unless you know exactly what their weaknesses are, and have the right counters.

 

(3) There is no in-game way to find out about these weaknesses and their counters. For example, the blind ex-worshipper who should know all about them doesn't tell you jack.

 

Basically, the game throws you at them and goes "Here, figure it out." No indication that you may be out of your depth here. No indication of what you should do to prepare. I maintain that the only way to learn how to deal with these is either to die repeatedly and try one thing aver another until something bites, or make like I did -- ask someone who already figured it out.

I do not like this quest.

True, The fact that the quest is called the Unseeing Eye would probably be too vague to constitute a clue that you're about to face Beholders. And the fact that the Forgotten God Avatar refers to the "beast" as a Beholder, is probably not enough for some players to conclude that they're about to face beholders. Of course, If you had Viconia in your Party, she'll tell you, after you meet Gaal, that you're dealing with a Beholder Cult.

 

Incidently, I have no idea what changes the BG2 EE inflicted upon the game, (I play only the Original) but in my game that quest is somewhat level scaled. At level 9, The enemy composition is like 95% Gauth, and thus isn't really all that sucker-punchy as you're describing. But that's beside the point. This is the old skool. There's no safety net and step-by step instruction manual. You can, in fact, get in over your head if you venture too far off the beaten path. Adventuring is a dangerous profession etc. My suggestion.... go do the Umar Hills.... Or...try and seek out your profession's stronghold. That cult isn't going anywhere. And neither is the Temple of Helm/Lathander

 

(1) Put a couple of anti-beholder spells in a cache somewhere nearby.

They did. And not just spells. You came from the sewers. Which means you've got the Cloak of the Sewers. Try polymorphing into a mustard jelly and then taking on those Gauths/beholders. Again, Junta, BG2 is a game of infinite tools.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Help a bro out here, bros. How do I beat the beholders without those cheesy items, without Glitterdust, and without using an expensive technique like invisibility+web+cloudkill+elemental which would require me to rest every three steps?

Animate dead? Dominate? Horror? Liberal use of avoidance? Brute melee and ranged force + lots of potions and summons? (that's how I used to do it, way back when I was a n00b)

 

What level is your party?

 

Edit: Lots of people say that the Shield of Balduran is "cheese" or "cheating" or some other silly platitudes du jour. But when you press them to elaborate, the only explanation they give you is: "well because it makes this frustrating, unfair fight too...fair!" lol OK, I've got 3 answers to that.

 

1) The Shield of Balduran is not cheap. By buying it, you're making a significant dent in your funds...for an Item that will only be useful to you in maybe 3 instances in the entire game.

2) There's only 1 Shield of Balduran, and if you're traveling with a party that means that only 1 of you is protected

3) So what? Skip all beholder battles if you're too weak to fight them head on and too "hiptster" to do things the easy way.

 

Besides, only Beholders and Elder Orbs pose a threat. Gauths are Nothing. You fight them like you fight anything else. Toss fireballs and magic missiles at them till they fall dead.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

The last Piece of Crom Faeyr is NOT in the underwater city. It's in the Underdark. (Demogorgon Statue encounter, remember?).

 

What you do miss out on by taking the portal is

 

1)The Wave blade piece.

2)The Cloak of Mirroring

3) The Cloak of Protection +2

4) The awesome spectator beholder (which even PrimeJunta will love, since it just might be the best piece of comic relief writing EVER in a game)

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Also, not 100% happy with my party composition. I have too much thief and not enough fighter. Yoshimo is a bro and more competent at thieving than Nalia, but I think Nalia's skills will do, even though she won't advance them, and Yoshimo can't do much other than thieve. I'd like to swap him out for a fighter or fighter/something. I'm missing a pure fighter.

You'll find her later, but there's a pure fighter that will gel perfectly for your role playing. Mazzy. Seek her out.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

I hate the fact that the game gives you a choice whether or not to cut a massive chunk out of the game after Spellhold and thereby preventing you from getting the last bit of Crom Faeyr. Honestly, who the f*ck thought that was a good idea.

I agree! Choice and Consequence. What an absurdly stupid concept for an RPG!

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Nope.

 

Interestingly, Raging Barbarians are immune to Maze, but not Imprisonment. Raging Berserkers, however, are immune to both Maze and Imprisonment.

The good thing about Barbarian Rage, however, is that it grants immunity to Level Drain, while the Berserker rage doesn't.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

And he's a Paladin. There's no brick walls that Carsomyr can't smash through.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Consumables don't really cut it for scouting though, you know, as I'd go through them really fast.

Pro-tip: Invisibility potions last 12 hours. Or until you perform a real action (like open a chest, or attack someone.)

  

I really really liked the encounter with the charmed captain of the guard and that my magic snapped him out of it.

I'm a munchkin. Instead of charming/dominating him, I usually just kill him. He drops full plate armor (which is rather useful that early in the game), plus 2 fire giant strength potions.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Also, the Lilarcor puzzle. Other than being completely contrived like most of these things are

True, but that's not fair. That one is a remnant of cut content. It doesn't make sense because they gutted the whole story behind it.

 

Also, hate hate HATE the stealth system. "Hide in shadows failed." Wait. Wait. Wait. Try again. "Hide in shadows failed." Repeat until succeeds. This is why I don't bother scouting until I have a thief with 100% hide in shadows one way or the other, it's just too bleeding tedious.

You'll have the same "problems" with 100% hide in shadows and 100% move silently, junta....until you learn the mechanics. The skill is not a misnomer. It's called Hide in shadows, not: "hide-in-plain-sight-in-broad-daylight-derp". You've got to pay attention to the surrounding environment. If you take advantage of the shadows that certain objects (like bookshelves, porch roofs, rocks and doors) cast, you will succeed and the skill will become useful. Until then, your Thief can enjoy all the backstabbing/scouting goodness of his class by using the bajillions of invisibility potions, spells, scrolls and jewelery that this game tosses at you at almost every turn.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Yes dear. BG2 is perfect in every way. All the encounters, even the random ones with nameless opponents are gems of design and pure gameplay goodness. The writing is positively Shakespearean, and no game before or since can come close to the mechanics. :pat pat: There, happy now?

It's the stardard I use to judge party-based RPGs, yes.

 

PS, why didn't you just cast cloudkill on the umberhulks? It insta-kills them all.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

He's not looking for tips-- he's exploring a game with fresh eyes and a critical mindset.

Correction, he's heaping piles of random absurd judgments on the game based on the point of view of a modern gamer who's using modern gaming mechanics as a benchmark of how all games should be. There's nothing genuine or honest going on here.

 

Which is all beside the point. My beef is with the way that particular encounter was set up: with the orogs and the unnamed slaver already in melee with the party. That's lazy.

No sale. The game lets you walk away from melee range without penalty (ahem, unlike another game around here that shall remain nameless for now)

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

... annnd ... here's another of my pet peeves: the trap weapon choices. I'm really nervous about this one. I want to pick another two-handed weapon because I already have a pip in two-handed weapon style, and also it makes it easy to switch between main and ranged. But which one? I've been bit in the posterior with bad weapon proficiencly choices before.

That's a non issue in BG2 and you know it.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

Ugh.... The artstyle of the enhanced edition of BG2 makes my eyes bleed.

 

Anyway....

somehow I was entirely surrounded and mixed in with baddies, who croaked Aerie before I had time to hit the pause key. She wasn't in the best of health because I wasn't resting, being in a hurry to get to the keep. And of course Raise Dead (or Jaheira's equivalent) doesn't work on elves. So, reload.

Ok, I see how this thread is shaping up. So I will preface my response to this particular 'point' of yours with 4 things that should be GIVENS to anyone who claims to want an honest debate.

 

1) BG2 is real time with pause.

2) BG2 does not reward reckless non-thinkers.

3) There's a counter to everything in BG2.

4) Raise dead and resurrection work on ANY party member unless they get chunked.

 

So....what happened to Aerie in your game? She died? Ok... why? Wait. I'll tell you why. She died because of #2. You decided to travel across the map when someone in your party is hanging on to life by a thread. Silly. Aerie herself is a healer. Why didn't you have her cast cure light (or moderate, or serious) wounds on herself while walking to the edge of the city gates? Actually forget about that. There's no excuse for her dying in that encounter EVEN if she begins it with 1hp. (see #1 and #3). You could have made use of the auto-pause settings. Set the game to pause on enemy sighted. Problem solved. Hell, forget about that. Aerie is a Cleric/Mage, which means you just weren't thinking. Sanctuary is a 1st level cleric spell. Invisibility is a second level mage spell. Stone skin is a 4th level mage spell....and it has a casting time of 1, which means you wouldn't have been interrupted.... and once cast, she becomes immune to the blows of the melee guys surrounding her...for several rounds.... long enough for her to mirror image herself.... then heal herself then blast every enemy in that encounter out of existence.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

@stun

 

Baldur Gate 2' s story was masterpiece and it wasn't simple neither.

 

it's not every game you play will have a good/bad guy chasing a mad wizard with asperger's disorder

 

Irenicus was actually refreshing villain for bg 2 time, and even in bg 1 you could see irenicus was a well flesh out character in BG universe

 

Just go to the cloakwood in Bg 1 and speak to a fat lolth wantobe

 

Even if irenicus wasn't part of Aluando's prophesy, it 's not like Gorian ward didn't have a life outside of the prophesy and Irenicus didn't have hidden motives.

Oh for crying out loud. Can we please try and not miss the point on this one?

 

Anyone who's ever endured my ranting on this forum for the past 2 years knows full well that BG2 is the greatest game ever created according to me, and that I rank it up there with Sex in awesomeness.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that it is NOT a continuation of BG1's plot. It's literally a "Here, Bhaalspawn, take a side trip in your life while the prophesy simmers somewhere else. We will later thrust you back into it".