[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

Well, the crafting system might mitigate things a bit, but yeah, you can tell already from the Backer beta that the loot (especially the magic weaponry) seems a bit.... ARPG'ish, shall we say?

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

 

Or you could just enjoy the gameplay, since it completely, utterly and Objectively does that better than the other games in your top 10

I preferred IWD's gameplay to BG2's.

 

How? And why? Ok. I dislike being forced to do such a harsh comparison between the IE games because it's sorta like a mother having to choose between her kids. (see, unlike your list, my top 10 has Both of those games in it. In fact, my top 3 has both of those games in it) But here goes.

 

First off, being able to create your entire party is not a talking point. You can do that in BG2 as well. The only thing IWD has over BG2 is that its dungeons are cooler looking and better designed. No surprise there. IWD is a Dungeon Crawler. If it didn't do its dungeons better, the entire game would have been an epic failure. Also, one could argue that another thing IWD has over BG2 is that it starts you at level 1. A lot of people prefer this. I'm one of them. So we'll go ahead and add that.

 

But BG2 has:

 

1) Better build freedom. You can dual-wield in BG2. There are more classes. There are more spells (Arcane and divine). There are more weapon choices. There are more weapon styles.

2) The Bestiary is larger. by a factor of about a thousand

3) It's not as linear. BG2 hits that sweet spot between the sandbox and the rails. Icewind dale just embraces the rails.

4) Encounter design is better. Yeah, I said it. Icewind Dale tries to make its combat more complex by just flooding the battlefield with more enemies. BG2 takes a more creative route....with variety

5) The Combat Mechanics are better. There's no way around this....and it's not even close. There's no Time Stop in Icewind dale. There's no Project image and mislead. There's no mindflayers that suck your intelligence; there's no undead that level drain you etc. There's no Wands of wonder or Decks of many things, or wild mage surges. There's no Imprisonment.

6) Loot itemization is better. Both games do a pretty good job (the creativity and labor of love is definitely there for both) but lets face the facts. Crom Faeyr is more memorable than the War Hammer of greater phasing. Carsomyr is more memorable than Pale Justice. And Celestial fury is more memorable than the long sword of greater action.

7) The Story is Better. Don't get me wrong, I'm one of those people who will vehemently defend both of the Icewind dales' stories from the numerous fools out there who consistently dismiss them away as non existent. But honestly, are you going to argue that Belhifet is a more compelling villain than Irenicus? Plus there's the whole companion banter and backstory thing, which I personally don't value as much as other people do. But Bg2 has it while Icewind dale doesn't bother. So there you go.

8.)There's better role playing Options. I suppose you'd disagree with this (as you already have on this thread), but go ahead and do 2 playthroughs of Icewind dale. One with an evil thief mage, and the other with a Paladin. Then come back and tell us how different those two playthroughs were in terms of role playing. lol

 

 

^this is how I define gameplay. Bg2 simply does it better. It's a bigger game. Bigger Scope. It just has *more* to offer.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

What the hell. I'll try ignoring the story and attempt to switch to pure powergaming mode. See if it makes a difference.

Or you could just enjoy the gameplay, since it completely, utterly and Objectively does that better than the other games in your top 10

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

Now I'm supposed to solve a murder in a district I've never visited, involving people I don't know.

Hey, don't knock the bridge district murder quest. It may be one of the better written pieces of the game simply due to its sheer weirdness, assuming you're clever (and lucky) enough to see it to its actual conclusion.

 

I didn't think too much of the Asylum, there's a machine down the bottom of the Catacombs that gives you a few good items though.

LOL Yeah the footwear dispenser.

 

But the Asylum's got a bunch of the real goods. Bag of Holding; Ring of regeneration; a ton of the 7th and 8th level spell scrolls that aren't that easy to find in Athkatla; Staff of Thunder & Lightning. etc.

[Boots of Speed!]

Blue Suede Shoes - allows for free disengagements (ie. Don't step on my blue suede shoes)

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

 

@PrimeJunta, i understand. Should you want to replay BG2 for another time, i’d suggest to take the sorcerer. You’ll be able to summon creatures with not much resting inbetween required. Skeletons at later levels become skeletal warriors immune to magic, then there’s all kinds of summon elementals spells to give him and there’s the staffs in the game that let you also summon elementals. I don’t know what the max number of summoned creatures is, but you could build yourself a small army and outnumber the opponents, flank them, do whatever you want to get control of the battlefield, there might be just a little bit more movement involved in this than what you’re used to from PoE..

 

Did you just suggest making a Sorcerer and waste the precious spell slots on summoning spells?

 

o_o

 

 

Mite b fun, though

 

Some Wizard summons in BG2 are downright indispensable. Mordinkainen's sword and Wizard Eye are so powerful they're basically cheese. Nishrus and Hakshears are Great. And of course the ultimate summon: Summon Planetar. Probably the most powerful spell in the game outright. A Planetar can Solo BG2 by itself.

 

But yeah, Monster summoning 1,2, and 3 are crap, as are the various Demon summoning spells.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

some comments:

- What is the difference between strategy and tactics? Is one thing character creation and party composition and the other thing is positioning and ability use in combat?

Sort of. I often find myself using the two words interchangeably lol. But if I had to venture a guess, I'd say "strategy" is the general gameplay philosophy/approach one employs, and "tactics" are the specifics.

 

- What is the main target group of PoE? IE veterans or new players? You cannot please everyone. I have played so many RPG that I know most basics

Now there's the real question. A couple of years ago I was absolutely certain that there was only one target group for Poe: People who loved the Infinity engine games and wanted another one. But since then I've noticed a definite 2nd target audience: The Obsidian fan. Of course, if it was just those two groups, I wouldn't be worried at all, as they're neither mutually exclusive, nor at any sort of cross purposes. But I suspect Obsidian is attempting to branch out and target an even larger audience than that. That's good for sales but not necessarily good for the game's design.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

@Lord Wafflebum

 

Regarding Basilisks encounter specifically, there are Protection from Petrification spell (both for mage to learn and for everyone as consumable scroll) and potion of mirrored eyes. Also, undead summons immune to petrification. My point is, game did give you a clue about what you can do against petrification, but didn't make this clue too obvious. That's what they call good design.

 

Of course, it's another story altogether when game assumes that you're metagaming and says like "die and reload until you fumble something suitable for encounter or go ask someone".

BG1 also gave you warnings (a bunch of petrified people and animals littering the map area before you encounter them), and BG1 gives you a very blatant anti-petrification tool the moment you set foot on the map (the NON-hostile, talking Ghoul that begs to come along and 'kill your enemies')

 

^There's enough hand holding on that map already... do they have to take it further and render petrification itself harmless/trivial/temporary too? Yep, I guess they do. Look what they did to petrification in PoE.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

Ha! Romances. Feh.

 

There's your Real Hard counter/sucker punch/Rock-paper-scissors/Save or else mechanics.

 

Romances in BG2:

 

1) They hit you suddenly, and regardless of your actions and without warning (Sucker punch)

2) There's only 2 outcomes. Success or failure. Nothing in between. (save or else)

3) When the LI speaks, romance success can only be had with the "nice" response, and failure can only be achieved via the douchbag Response. That is "Hard Countering" by definition. There are no alternative responses/options. Why? Because the whole thing is a primitive Rock-Paper-Scissors mini-game.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

I notice no one has pointed out another very obvious difference between BG2 and PoE.

 

BG2 had optional Romance which made party interaction more immersive and PoE doesn't have any. I hope there are other ways in PoE I can interact with my party  on that same personal level   

I called it.. On the last thread.

 

I must have ESPn!

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

You asking me?

 

I dislike that trope. Just like I dislike being plopped right into melee in a random encounter. I'm being robbed of my agency.

Bingo. THAT is how I feel about the elimination of pre-buffs. (and to a lesser extent, the removal of the hard counter design)

 

Player agency is being taken away from us, as well as an element of tactical gameplay (planning/preparation). But what can we do? The fragile sensitivities of those casual first-time-player majorities must be protected so that PoE can sell.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

My thinking? Set-pieces like the one in the tomb don't really mesh with pre-buffing.

Should such randomized, "poof-there-it-is!" encounters that materialize out of thin air and thus nullify pre-planning/scouting be the norm in PoE? Should they even be common?

 

I'm not knocking them, and I definitely see their appeal. It's just that Prebuffing and hard counters are something that *a lot* of people have grown to love via association with the IE games. It's pretty darn radical for Josh to remove them outright, when he could have just mixed things up a little and both sides would have been satisfied. For example, Give us a couple of those scoutable, plannable BG1-esque Basilisk encounters, AND give us those set pieces you're describing.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

What he says about hard counters and parties isn't strictly true (if it was, Stun wouldn't have been able to solo BG2 with a berserker),

Confront Josh on this and his response will be 3-fold.

 

1) He'll say all bets are off once the player is armed with meta knowledge. He'll say he's more concerned about Players who are playing the game for the first time who might be turned off by the perceived Solution-less, All or Nothing, rock-paper-scissors gameplay that Hard counters bring to the equation.

2) Then he'll say that there's nothing "tactical" about a situation where an enemy Mage casts Finger of Death and gets his attack nullified by a party who put up a Death Ward ahead of time because they didn't want to be hit with death magic, and, you know, took the necessary precautions like any decent field general would.

3) And finally he'll argue that the problem with hard counters is that it goes against character build freedom. (ie. I want to build a party of Barbarians, but I can't because this game has wizards that cast finger of death and the barbarian class does not have a counter to that)

 

But again, None of this is "fact" (and certainly not observable fact, no matter what Josh says) First off, BG2 is physical, tangeable, observable proof that #3 is complete nonsense, so that one is not even worth debating. As for #2, I beg to differ. I define Tactics as coming up with solutions/game plans to problems that arise in combat. Ok, Hard counters fit that definition. Period. Josh is a game designer and it's his job to supply the player with solutions to problems, NOT to decide which solutions are "boring" and which one's are "tactical".

 

#1 is the only valid argument he makes. But Removing hard counters is NOT the solution. Giving the player information and tools and Alternatives to hard counters is. That is to say, if you put Medusas and Basilisks in the game, and their Petrification attacks are Save or Die, then give the player advanced knowledge of the threat. Then Give him Non Hard counter options... like access to Undead summons. Mirror Shields, Stone to flesh scrolls; Potions that massively improve saving throws; the ability to avoid the encounter outright via stealth and invisibility etc. etc. etc.

 

And then... trust the player to figure things out on his own. We're not ALL Idiots, Josh. We are the ones who always end up discovering Exploits that your own dev team wasn't intelligent enough to anticipate. So what makes you think we can't solve an insta-kill problem and have fun doing it?

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

@Stun: How can you tell that a weapon's gonna cut through any or all of those protections? Trial and error, or is there a rule to it? Elemental damage?

Elemental damage. Stone skin protects against standard physical damage, but not against fire, ice, acid, electricity & poison. I could be wrong, but I believe the spell description says so. And even if it doesn't, what can be a better teacher than experimentation on this one? You see a stone skinned mage. You whack him with your weapon then observe what happens. Or, A mage casts Improved Mantle, you attack him with Pixie Prick....nothing happens, so you try the Staff of Wynne...it does damage! Conclusion: +3 weapons don't work against Improved Mantle, but +4 weapons do!

 

@Malekith: Do they have more than one Death Spell? If not, it should be easy to just summon another one.

Usually they do have more than one. Still, a lich who wastes his time casting Death spells at your summons is not doing other things...like trying to kill your cleric. And that's kinda the point of summons.... to serve as a distraction.

 

Of course later you'll have access to better 'distractions' like Demons and Celestials.... which aren't summoned, they're gated, and thus aren't subject to the Death spell-kills-summoned-creatures rule.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

Don't care much for the Thieves' Guild gameplay.

Hahaha. You picked the wrong stronghold. It's the only one that sucks. It's....empty. It has no quests.

 

The best ones are the Mage Stronghold, the Bard Stronghold and the Fighter stronghold.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

I'm curious if any of you BG2 grogs play while deliberately never using Breach. Fantastic spell, but has always seemed crazy OP to me.

I've done it. It's not all that "crazy hard". In fact, in retrospect, Breach feels like the emergency brake on an Automatic (unnecessary in general)... Or like something they tacked on at the last minute as if realizing that some people might not like mage duels.

 

Lets take a closer look at the mechanics here. Enemy mages protect themselves from melee attacks in the following ways.

1) Protection from Magic weapons

2) Protection from Normal weapons

3) Mantle

4) Improved Mantle

5) Stoneskin

6) Mirror Image

7) Improved invisibility/Mislead/Shadow Door

8.) Any combination of the above.

 

The Purpose of Breach is to cut through all of these instantly. But what if the player wants to duel the mage?

 

First, the best protections on the list (1, 3 and 4) have laughably Sawyeristic durations (ie. Short. 4 rounds... or 24 seconds) and simply waiting them out is not all that unreasonable. (and it's what you have to do against Liches anyway...who are immune to breach) Second, many many weapons in this game cut right through stoneskins, mirror images and mantles. (Flail of the Ages), while others can still totally disable the mage even if they fail to penetrate his melee protections (Celestial Fury, Staff of the Ram) Third, any sort of invisibility becomes moot against a meleer the millisecond the enemy tries to cast a spell.

 

And then there's Carsomyr (Dispell on Hit), the Staff of the Magi (Dispel on hit), and melee hits from the elemental princes and celestials (Dispell, Dispell + Vorpal) that Druids and Mages (respectively) get later on, that render enemy Wizard protections (melee or otherwise) trivial.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

Yes. Terrible. Terrible. And Ridiculous. It's quite the problem, too. Because, um... the game would be better if the loot was a little more forgettable and mundane and a little less... memorable, colorful, useful, and ripped straight out of the DM's guide.

 

....And if there was less of it. Celestial Fury shouldn't exist (for example). let those foolish katana specialists suffer their mediocre build choices. Get rid of the Staff of the Magi and the Robe of Vecna too. Mages should use their spells and be content with them alone. And don't get me started on Carsomyr. Why the hell should the Paladin class get a friggin Holy Avenger, anyway? What is this? Fantasy? Bluh. And Crom Faeyr.... For the love of God, if you're going to make an end game weapon, make sure it's not a legendary and celebrated Warhammer that instakills trash mobs and gives you the same strength as a Cleric's Draw upon Holy Might. Because that's just...Monte Hall.

 

 

 

Hands off my BG2 Loot dropping, Modern gamer. BG2 did it right and no other game has come close since.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

• Can you backstab with ranged weapons in BG2? Specifically, Shortbows.
• Do you get the bonus to hit while in Stealth, with ranged weapons? Specifically, Shortbows.

No and No. lol

 

And that's actually one thing I'm looking forward to PoE for. Rogues can do their Sneak attacks/Deathblows/Critical strikes with any weapon. That's really sweet when you think about it.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

Just got to wondering how fast people could go through the opening dungeon?

I usually rush it as fast as I can, as the dungeon is actually kinda dull. There are only 2 things that matter in Chateau Irenicus:

 

1) The companions you plan to pick up

2) The Helm of Balduran

 

So I usually grab those two and then make for the surface. Alternatively, there's the "dungeon be gone" mod, which gives you all the dungeon's loot and EXP, then asks you whether you want to recruit Yoshimo, Minsc and Jaheira, then instantly teleports you to the Pramenade battle cutscene.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

BG 2 isn't a game. It's a way of life.

Yep. It's a sport. You don't "play" BG2, you practice BG2. You engage in it.

 

That's why when people start saying things like "I've played Bg2 X times", or "BG2 has replayability!" I get confused. (what are these people babbling about?) It's like going up to Michael Jordan and asking him how many times he's "replayed Basketball". One does not simply count BG2 replays. BG2 is meant to be measured with *time*.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

 

@primejunta: spells that give immunity are just part of the game, the go hand in hand with super powerful effects they guard against. You don't really need Death Ward if enemy Finger of Death only does damage, you memorise another healing instead.

 

What about if Finger of Death too two rounds to act, and you had one round to apply a counter before dying, after being zapped?

 

Then it would be like poison. It'd be a good mechanic, but I wouldn't want it to replace Save or Die.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

And Stun: did you learn all this yourself from the game, or did you use resources that didn't come with it (a little/sometimes/a lot/yeah baby!)

Lots of both. You'd be surprised at what you learn and discover when you solo. Plus, back in 2000-2001 when the game was still 'hot', you could go to the Black Isle forums and engage in endlessly massive mechanics-based debates with super knowledgable people like Dan Simpson, Wesley Weimer and the guys who eventually founded the Gibberlings 3 and Baldurdash websites (ie. the modding community)

 

And you, yourself, are gonna learn quite a bit by going through this game with a 3 person party, btw. What's that saying? Necessity is the mother of invention? Yeah, that's how it is in BG2. If you lack a fighter (for example), you'll instinctively discover all the ways to turn your cleric and mage into tanks. If you lack a mage, you'll find yourself figuring out ways to turn your Fighter into a battlefield nuker etc. etc.

 

Edit: and to make this relevant to the forum: I certainly hope PoE allows for such role mutations. Because there's nothing more dull than games that don't - Games that adhere to the catastrophic MMO philosophy where all classes have strict combat roles and any deviation means Build failure/You're hopelessly underpowered because you're 'playing your class wrong'.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

Re golems, I'm curious -- besides +2 or better weapons, how do you kill a stone golem? I had no problem with the ones I met since I could just go out and buy one, but I'm curious.

1)Summons. Lots of the monsters you can summon can whack any kind of Golem. An Arial Servant's fists strike as +3 weapons. And any type of elemental can hit anything in BG2

 

2) Magic. Contrary to what people think, Golems are not immune to magic. They're just 100% resistant to it. Since this is BG2, there's a difference. As it stands, a mage can fire off a few "Lower Resistances" (5th level spell, look it up) at the golem. And then after that, it's totally up to you how you wish to obliterate that golem, whether it be a magic missile barrage, or disintegrate, or Flame strike, or Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, or whatever.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity (2)]

I honestly am trying to enjoy this. I believe there's a great game underneat there somewhere and I'm trying hard to dig it out.

I have advice for you. A lot of it. Because the game is throwing itself at you, like a horny, half naked supermodel.... and you're resisting like prude. Let go already. Stop worrying about what could/might/might not happen, and just take things as they come. Maliketh pointed out the folly of stressing out over the whole timed quest thing (which is odd. I didn't even know there were timed quests in BG2 until about 5 years into playing the game) Trust me, PrimeJunta, it's NOT worth worrying about. It's an illusion.

 

But there are other things too:

 

-Don't Worry about your weapon proficiency choices. There are ZERO bad ones. Period. Unique over-powered gear of every type falls from the sky in BG2, and you have (literally) dozens of opportunities to change your build even after the fact anyway.

 

-Don't worry about your spell choices. Contrary to the BS blather spouted by Josh Sawyer, and parroted by his legions of worshippers, you cannot "dead end" yourself in Bg2. If your wizard or cleric did not memorize the "right" spells, the game will toss items at you to fully compensate. I soloed a Berserker...on insane, in this game. And beat it. And it wasn't very difficult. Which means spells aren't needed anyway. They just make things easy.

 

-Don't worry about sucker punches. The Liches, Mindflayers and Beholders in this game will sideswipe you and take you by surprise in chapter 2. Yep. You'll die, reload and die again. Until you learn how to beat them. And then after that, you'll face Liches, Mindflayers and Beholders again...in chapter 4, 5, 6, 7 etc..... but by then you'll have learned how to steamroll them.

 

-Don't friggin judge the whole based on the exceptions. Carrying your disgust around because Edwin's quest was linear, will cause you to overlook the fact that the "get into the Asylum" quest is about as open ended as quests can be and still be called quests. And so is the "deal with Valygar" quest, and the entire underdark, and the Hell trials etc.

 

-Don't worry about 'Rock-paper-scissors'. Again, forget what Josh Sawyer has brainwashed you into believing. You don't need Blunt weapons to kill Clay Golems. Everything in BG2 can be killed in 10 different ways...or more. There are 50 ways to kill Kangaxx.

 

-Take your time. Realize that this is a massive game. Massive in every conceivable way. And you will gain power in slow drip form....until you and everyone in your party, becomes god like. That is the beauty of BG2 - perfectly paced from the beginning to the end.

[Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity]

If you read this thread, you'd find out that I attempted to have my paladin infiltrate the Shadow Thieves and Mae'varis's outfit in order to rat both out to the Cowled Wizards so they would take them down. The game did not let me, and several people on this thread objected loudly that a paladin couldn't do that to start with. One of them went as far as to say that accepting to work for Bloodscalp would have been an automatic fall from grace in PnP.

 

I.e., it's not my idea of what a paladin can or can't do that you're arguing with.

Then we're at an impasse. There isn't advice to give on something like this...because we don't know your mind. All we know is that BG2 is high fantasy, and it's rooted in the Forgotten Realms setting where Paladins are not as free-willed/individualistic as they might be in Junta's opinion. So...Is that a flaw with BG2? No, not really. Especially since the game DOES let you take down the Shadow Thieves. (it's part of the game's main plot). But it involves siding with the ENEMIES of the shadow thieves, and Junta, that's not the Cowled Wizards. It's Bodhi's vampire clan. But Again, you're a *Paladin* and BG2 will punish you if you play out of character as a paladin... as in, you'll become Fallen if you side with a friggin Vampire faction.

 

And NO, that's not a flaw either, nor is it bad quest design/writing. It's the opposite. It's TRUE role playing. The kind that modern games have forsaken in favor of the bland and insulting "ok, lets not punish the poor sensitive player for his build choices".

 

Incidently, if you wish to be a shill for the Cowled wizards, the game lets you do that too. Go to the government district and seek out Tolgerias...then do his quest and take his side, Paladin. I dare you