Valorian

Hold on, little pal. It's one thing to distance themselves from the games/rulesets that, during the marketing phase, were going to be the spiritual predecessors blabla-bla -- -- and another thing to distance themselves from attributes designed using common sense. You take the dictionary and then look up, for example, the word "agility". You research the meaning a bit; Hmm, could agility affect the duration of the charecter's hold spell? Hmm, no.. not really. Could it affect your coordination and your chance to avoid being hit? Hmm, yes! Yeees!

Says the person who finds the GIVETH-damage-and-heal, GIVETH-accuracy attribute system appealing. An attribute system that has (cardinal) attributes which are commonly used to describe human beings is a fine attribute system for an RPG. There's only so much relativization you can use in your posts before crashing into the land of nonsense. And you've already settled there.

teknoman2, you're wrong. There are shortcomings in d&d, as well as elements which I don't like. To name a few.. I prefer a damage reduction system over AC, which is a staple of d&d. Immunities to damage type etc. are not a good element of d&d. The duration of disable-type spells is too long in d&d and they're going to address this in PE. Attributes in d&d need further balancing. Attributes in PE are also going to need further balancing for years to come, but they'll have this little sPEcial addition of being silly nonsensical abominations. Not that I need to explain anything to you, but I felt like offering this polite FYI.

Sure, slapping a random name onto the attribute, like "discipline", will fix this ridiculous concept. Doesn't work that way, hon. However, it's apparent that you can't see further than the name/envelope and grasp the essence. Saving throws and defenses work the same way. S.t. vs DC / Accuracy of an attack (DC) vs Defense So you can't comprehend why someone would be alright with that system (which may or may not be in PE), but you can comprehend the intricacies of that system before they're announced? I love the fact that a modicum of empathy is the deciding factor between what you can comprehend and what you can't. It's almost as if you are not actually precognitive! I can comprehend the elements which have been presented as part of the attribute system. If Sawyer deemed it's not time to discuss attributes because he's not ready to share important details about it yet, he wouldn't answer the question I believe. That said, I can't comprehend stupidity masked with a fake scholar hat and never was able to. That's where my empathy always fails.

3rd in a row. And I really.. really, I mean really can't comprehend the existence of the type of brain that would find an attribute system in which an attribute affects both your accuracy with a two-handed sword and your accuracy with a charm spell -- appealing. ...The chace of the sword to hit and the duration of the charm effect in one attribute. Oh, dear fanboys.

Seeing as we don't know how many attributes there will be, what attributes affect, or even what the attributes are, condemning the concept with the current available information is a bit like saying a vehicle won't work when all you know is that it moves. Oh, you're so spot-on, AGX-17, you really are. :/ We know: -It's not the number of Attributes that is unconventional, but how they are applied to derived statistics. -It's more "gamist" than "simulationist". D&D's ability score system tries to be both and, IMO, fails because of it. -all of their bonuses are uniformly applied instead of being keyed to specific types of weapons or attacks -E.g. one Attribute affects bonus damage (and healing) and one affects bonus accuracy -- regardless of the weapons or spells being used -We would like your character concepts to be viable regardless of how you distribute your Attributes. -Part of our solution for this is decoupling things like Attribute-based accuracy and damage bonuses from specific types of gear or class abilities. The focus of your character may change based on how you shift the points around (NO ****?). Of course, you need moar to understand anything about this attribute system and that's ok. But you don't have to be mad at people who already get it.

Thanks for that. No problem. Although, I should say that forums would get rather boring if we were required to only discuss and object to game mechanics that are *absolutely*, without doubt, going to remain unchaned. Otherwise, you're spot-on.

There are a few giant fallacies in your post, jethro. -Sawyer's abominable attribute system is in no way comparable to what vehicles without horses mean to humankind. -We're not going to burn Sawyer on a stick (so your comparisons with the Spanish Inquisition are simply idiotic). -This is what forums are for; discussions. People discuss elements of the game, shock and horror!, that haven't even been mentioned by devs. If you don't have anything to say about a subject (because you think you lack details, don't understand the subject, etc.), just stay out of the topic instead of wasting thread space with useless disclaimers.

Also, guis, just because charisma was a dump stat* in many d&d games for combat oriented classes doesn't mean that it has to be in other games. Intelligence and wisdom wasn't. (Improved) combat expertise is very yummy and a bonus to will saves is yummy for everyone. *Even considering that mechanically it is a dump stat for fighter-types, a smart developer would put quite a few charisma checks throughout the game.

It's always amusing how some people rush in to explain that they need to learn and hear MOAR before making any judgements (God forbid I'm wrong about detail 4d! Need a disclaimer!). Which is ok. Some people need everything explained in details before they understand what is it about. Other people can, using logic and their cognitive capacity, connect the dots and understand the concept. Then, they can make the judgement before the game comes out and help the developers not make horrible mistakes.

These are actually going to be dump attributes. God knows what is going to be dumped into each of them.

Creativity is a phenomenon whereby something new and valuable is created. It lacks the latter. If the design achieves the intent, I'll value it. We would like your character concepts to be viable regardless of how you distribute your Attributes. ... Let's hope it doesn't. @Semper Thank your for the clarification about what kickstarting means and about Sawyer's developer-hierarchy-status within the PE team.

Creativity is a phenomenon whereby something new and valuable is created. It lacks the latter. @Semper It's not his game and it's not his money. He's just a developer in the team. When he self-funds his game, then it'll be all that.

It is not a good thing. This is not his money. This game is not for the realization of his childhood ability fantasies. There's nothing creative in dumping completely unrelated effects together and calling it an attribute.

Eh... not sure if serious. He's completely serious, sadly. In Sawyer's mind: Accessibility (for disability) >> Intricate ability stats system that requires planning and trade-offs

Well, they won't be reflected in this particular RPG. Thankfully, thanks to the Kickstarter Revolution, you'll soon have plenty of RPGs that DO simulate those basic characteristics. So there is indeed no reason to cry. Come on, even you can do better than "buy something else if you don't like this feature".

Hey! How's summer going? I see nothing's changed. Sawyer (and Tim?) are still "fixing" things that: a) don't need fixing b) need fixing, but they try to fix it by throwing bleach on it This is a case of b). Balancing attributes/ability scores and removing dump stat elements is important, yes, but you don't do that by renaming the stats and making them exceptionally nonsensical: a stat that affects both damage of everything (...and healing), for instance. This is not a matter of OOOHHH NOO IT'S A CHANGE! It's a matter of things getting out of hand by making horribly little sense. People do have some basic characteristics such as strength, agility, intelligence, resistance to pain (let's call it constitution) and I believe it's very good to have it reflected in an RPG. It's a way to make the characters more real, they're still virtual, but you have something concrete to asssess their basic characteristics. On the other hand... Oh, my character has a universal damage stat! How osooom and innnovashun! Also, all stats don't need to be equally useful for everyone. This won't fix what you're trying to fix because all stats WILL NEVER BE even comparably useful for everyone. You could have fixed it by, guess what, designing classical stats so that they're useful for every class, not destroying them and using something that makes less than 0 sense. E.g. See that interesting xy talent? Well, you need a certain intelligence score to pick it. Want to be better at using yy talent? A high wisdom will add some accuracy or damage to it. You just need a bit of creativity and imagination. Not straight boring idiotic damage / accuracy / etc. "attributes". *Extraordinarily silly. And that's ok. You cry a lot too.

Whatever you do, I'd prefer no copy-pasted icons from other games. Oh, and a better color for stamina would be yellow.

Look! I found part of the UI on the internets! I suppose they're going to change these reused icons. The original part looks fine.

Wrong request. "A tl;dr version under 1000 words would be appreciated" is the correct way to approach this specific situation.

When playing a challenging RPG that has enjoyable gameplay and an interesting ruleset, I usually limit the number of times my party is "allowed" to rest. This adds another layer of strategy and planning to the experience.

The Cean Gúla looks like a creature who could have a life-leech passive ability. Which is supercool.

"Valorian is a troll! " "I'm ignoring Valorian! " "Yes, me too! " "Valorian hurt my feelings. " " !" "Valorian is a zealot! " Ok. This thread is now officially about me. I love you all. I feel like an alien that's here to inspect the human brain and see if it can be improved somehow. Interesting approach And, sadly, terribly wrong. In RPG design, your goal isn't to create verisimilitude (as in "semblance to reality") through game mechanics. Rather, aforementioned game mechanics exist to emulate genre tropes. Survival mechanics are necessary when post-apocalyptic wastelands are involved. Chances of getting blood poisoning from a stab of a rusty dagger are only significant if your game seeks to emulate a gritty low fantasy environment. Elaborate combat mechanics are completely unnecessary in a game of modern investigative horror. On the other hand, in-combat powerups which trigger during a suitably dramatic demonstration of Heroic Resolve after getting badly beaten would be an absolute must in a shonen rpg. Since we only have a rather sketchy idea of what tropes are significant enough to warrant mechanical representation in the context of P:E, the point of the whole conversation is moot. Furthermore, it would tremendously improve everybody's mood and digestion if Valorian would just kindly shut his piehole already and accept that the people working on the game may be somewhat more competent and experienced (on the field they've been working on for God knows how long) than he (who probably has no qualifications whatsoever) is, instead of flailing about and screaming in a futile, yet increasingly tiresome manner. Btw., he's still on ignore, so if he raises an actual point instead of spewing some condescending but ultimately useless bull****, please do notify me. Hi alumin., Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I scrolled past your posts a month ago and never looked back, but I'm here to rectify this injustice. I see that you are trying to get the attention of the person that you, of course, are ignoring. By mentioning this person several times throughout the thread. Makes sense. I hope that a month in the dark, without any feedback from this person you're ignoring, didn't cause any permanent psychological disorders. I deem people who are working on this game competent, as well. Otheriwise, I wouldn't be here. But the point we apparently disagree on is their flawlessness. They are competent designers, but are not perfect, they make mistakes and I believe it is important to point them out. Yes, I know it's a bewildering concept for you, but this is actually not a North Korea simulator and J.E. Sawyer is actually not Kim Jong-un and Tim Cain is not Kim Jong-il. They can be wrong, you know. Shocking, right? It's all right, Fearabbit, you don't have to hide behind Leprosy's walls of text. It's unfair because nobody looks at them and therefore nobody can find the cute little afraid bunny hiding behind them.

Because it needs more hammering. I am enjoying all the critical hits I'm dishing out. I am enjoying all the crying and hysteria, too. And I am getting what I want. Oh, don't worry, I'm not going to quote the part where you declare the quality condition of your mental capabilities. It's common courtesy not to, and there's no need to repeat the obvious. And remember daises, in RL people and other creatures don't scale to your level, it's all about your hard work, willpower and innate capabilities, so we want to copy this very good thing into our RPGs.

Why would I now hurt your feelings and say it's the same thing, right? Indeed, a small dose of poison and a lethal dose of poison are not the same thing. Both are unpleasant though, and are best avoided. The "extreme" without level scaling? Yes.