DarkLord RuKen

Can someone from Obsidian please tell me who you are trying to market this game for? I can't figure it out. It seems like it's being designed for the "softcore" rpg player?

Dear Obsidian, Our language has several expressions that are so universal that everyone has heard it time and time again, such as: "Do unto other as you wish done unto you", or "Don't piss in the wind", but this one goes directly to you "If it isn't broke, DON"T FIX IT". Why you would set up your multiplayer experience the way you have is appalling. I can't see in my mind why you would do this knowing it will make you lose sales. You would have to know this decision would be limiting the already niche market. And your answer to this is "It's a story driven ARPG". Seriously? That's like saying you would rather watch a "story driven porno". Mixing Hack-n-Slash with story is much like mixing water and oil. I personally came here because I want a sequel to Champions of Norrath and I was hoping this would be a good substitute for that. While this game has some similarities to that, it is not that game. Even so, looking past that desire, and looking at this game for just exactly what it is and not comparing it to any other games made. Your multiplayer is set up terribly. The story to this COULD be epic, I don't know yet. I can guarantee though, that after the first or second play through, it will become tiresome. You have it set up so that we will have multiple copies of the same characters spread out over so many multiplayer games that your story will be nothing because it will become a nuisance. NOONE playing multiplayer is getting on the multiplayer to go through the story. They are playing multiplayer to SLAY **** OVER AND OVER with their friends. "Hey bro, it's been so awesome chopping goblin heads all day, but why don't we put down the swords and magic spells and listen to what Magistrate Donnie has to say about his budding affection towards Elizabeth the 3rd and how they snuck out their windows at night to shag in the horsebarns, but were caught by Squire Fenis who told Elizabeths father the Patron of Neggile and how it started a conflict between the two families and now the Saint Tingals family will have more position in the Congress of Willows to make advances in the ongoing feud of Resonaet... " You see that? Do you see how a story ****ed up the fun 2 guys were having killing some goblins? That's what you are trying to do to me.

I feel like its going to be a renter for sure. The multiplayer doesn't look like its going to be fulfilling to me. I am really not looking forward to having to play multiple versions of characters running through the same story over and over because I am not allowed to have a static character.

Is there anyway to filter out C2B's posts? Like a /ignore command or something? I can only find PM blocks. I would just rather not be able to see anything he writes.

I am 100% on it. I actually pleaded in a forum a couple months ago for them to delay it and fix the co-op. Maybe they actually read this boards ) Please don't feel so entitled. If the reason for the delay IS the co-op we'll see. But even then. Don't act like it was because of you. Dude seriously, take a second... breath deep... Every time I post anything on this forum you troll on it so hard. I was just saying that I had at one time wished they would make changes to co-op, and now they are. I'm happy. I never once stated that it was because of me, or any of it was my doing.

Sure, but it definitely doesn't make it any more likely. THe destructoid article has nothing to do about the delay unless other information suggests so. Anyway, I'm fine with delay, anything to make the game better. I am 100% on it. I actually pleaded in a forum a couple months ago for them to delay it and fix the co-op. Maybe they actually read this boards )

Just because the article is a little over a month old doesn't make it any less possible that it could be the reason for the delay.

No, actually. If Borderlands taught anything is that 4 times the same charachter isn't always that good an idea. Yeah and not being able to find a multiplayer game is going to be better.

Good news that they finally realized that the co-op was a terrible idea, but now the fix is still not what we want. Obsidian has a giant boner for the story they wrote and won't let us have created characters. At the very least we need to be able to play 2 versions or more of the same character in multiplayer. There will be so many issues where there will be too many people wanting to play character (x) but can't get in a game because there not enough people playing character (y). Single player and couch co-op is the place for story line, but in multiplayer it shouldn't matter. Everyone can run single player at their own pace and go through the story however they want, but let us just get to the "gameplay" in multiplayer.

You've described about any WRPG that came out in the last.. what.. 15 years? Yes. I think we just figured it out. This game is an RPG. Just like all those ones we have been playing for years. You can compare them all. They are all share this thing we like to call a "genre". Yet Fable doesn't focus on its combat. DS3 does. There are literary hunderds of action-rpgs/hack n' slashs that are closer and related to DS3. And I still don't get the connection. How did it reinforce your argument? What I said was this. I have a feeling that this game will be like Fable in the sense that it will be awesome, and yet at the same time let me down because it could have been so much more. "Fable received positive reception by critics." "Though pointing out several flaws in the game such as bland character designs" "The short length of the main plot was criticised by reviewers" I feel there will be similar things said about this game. You will beat it in 15-20 hours, and wish there was more to it. In making the game that short you will either upset the people who were really wanting the story to be more indepth, or upset the people who wanted a balls out hack-n-slash because there was to much story in it. Unless they add some awesome endgame content past the ending of the story line we are all going to beat it and say "that was it?"

You've described about any WRPG that came out in the last.. what.. 15 years? Yes. I think we just figured it out. This game is an RPG. Just like all those ones we have been playing for years. You can compare them all. They are all share this thing we like to call a "genre".

If you brought up similiar games like Gauntlet or Dark Alliance. Ok. But where is the connection between Fable and DS3? And specifically. Where is the connection between these two and your argument. Oh I don't know how about the fact that they are both story oriented RPG's where your actions affect the outcome of the game? They both have about the same play time. They both have some sort of alignment. In both games you talk to people get quests and get rewards for doing it. Sure, the fighting aspect of the game is more like Champions of Norrath mixed with Demon's Souls, but there is definite comparison to Fable.

From what it seems to me is this: Obsidian is not Gas Powered Games. Don't expect anything to be how it was. Obsidian has released several games from which only one wasn't moddable. It is not unresonable to assume that this will be moddable too. Since its their own engine now. I'm pretty sure there will still be something coming. Also please people stop with Fable comparisons. Why would we not compare it to previous games of the same genre? Is it unreasonable to bring up flaws in games that we don't want in this game, just as it is important to bring up the things in other games we do like? Using comparisons gives your argument more credibility. If I say I don't like something, and then give a reason why. Then my argument is more credible.

From what it seems to me is this: Obsidian is not Gas Powered Games. Don't expect anything to be how it was. My gut feeling is I will love this game, and hate it. Just like the first time I played Fable. It was amazing, just it could have been so much more.

Read on Silicon Era the answer to the talent points, proficiency points question. Thanks for that link C28.

I don't want to get involved in the argument, but I just wanted to bring up a couple of points on these specifically: You can not purchase every Proficiency or Talent. By the time you reach max level you'll only be able to buy about 1/2 the talents and 1/3 the proficiencies. You'll have to try out the other combinations on future playthroughs. That also excludes the customization you get based on the loot you pick up, and there are a *lot* of different stats you can find on gear. I feel pretty strongly that our level of customization meets or exceeds other games in the genre. I would say that 15-20 hours is a conservative estimate. We have had developers (who know the game!) take longer than that to complete the game. Again, time estimates are just that, estimates. I wouldn't get too worked up over it. Ok from what I understood there are 9 abilities per character. Are those the talents you are referring to? I think some of the misunderstanding is from the terminology. From my knowledge there are 9 abilities that each class has, each having 2 trees of 5 proficiency points. I gathered that we are able to get all 9 abilities, and spend 30 points (one per each level) on the proficiency points. What my quote should have read is, You can max all your abilities (have all 9). And that all characters will have all of those 9 abilities. "Eventually, you'll have access to 9 abilities - three for each stance, including defense - and each Ability comes with a pair of proficiencies that refine it." Am I wrong to assume we will be able to have all (max) abilities? Think of it this way: An Ability is something your character can "do" and is directly mapped to a button. You get 9 abilities and will unlock all of them over the course of the game, though you will choose the order you buy them in. A Proficiency is a buff to an Ability. Sometimes proficiencies change the fundamental usage of an ability - for instance, Anjali's Aura of Immolation can be a heavy damage AoE or a very low damage, heavy healing AoE buff depending on how you spend proficiency points. Think of these as customizing abilities. Each ability has two different proficiencies. You can put multiple ranks into any proficiency, but you can spend a maximum of 5 points total, split however you want, on a single ability. So you can buy 5 in the first, 0 in the second, half and half, or all in the second - whatever you want - but you can't max out both proficiencies for any one ability. In addition to only being able to spend 5 points on any one ability, you only get 30 Proficiency points total. So - assuming you spend your points maxing out abilities and don't spread them around - you can only max out 6 abilities on any given playthrough. You can also choose to spread your points around, which is certainly a viable strategy depending on the abilities and character build you're making. In addition to all of this, there are also 10 talents for each character, and each one of those has 5 ranks. You only get 30 points to spend, so you have to make choices as to what you want and don't want, based on your play style. Can you go more in depth to what exactly these Talents are? Ok correct me if I'm wrong on this. When you level do you get 1 proficiency point, and 1 talent point? So the skill trees would look like this --proficiency 1--- level 1 - level 2-- level 3 -- level 4 --- level 5 Abiliity 1 ---- --proficiency 2--- level 2 - level 2-- level 3 -- level 4 --- level 5 Then you have Talent 1 - rank - 1 -- rank 2--- rank 3-- rank 4 -- rank 5 Also, when you say "on any given playthrough" Do you mean we will be able to do multiple playthroughs on the same character?

I don't want to get involved in the argument, but I just wanted to bring up a couple of points on these specifically: You can not purchase every Proficiency or Talent. By the time you reach max level you'll only be able to buy about 1/2 the talents and 1/3 the proficiencies. You'll have to try out the other combinations on future playthroughs. That also excludes the customization you get based on the loot you pick up, and there are a *lot* of different stats you can find on gear. I feel pretty strongly that our level of customization meets or exceeds other games in the genre. I would say that 15-20 hours is a conservative estimate. We have had developers (who know the game!) take longer than that to complete the game. Again, time estimates are just that, estimates. I wouldn't get too worked up over it. Ok from what I understood there are 9 abilities per character. Are those the talents you are referring to? I think some of the misunderstanding is from the terminology. From my knowledge there are 9 abilities that each class has, each having 2 trees of 5 proficiency points. I gathered that we are able to get all 9 abilities, and spend 30 points (one per each level) on the proficiency points. What my quote should have read is, You can max all your abilities (have all 9). And that all characters will have all of those 9 abilities. "Eventually, you'll have access to 9 abilities - three for each stance, including defense - and each Ability comes with a pair of proficiencies that refine it." Am I wrong to assume we will be able to have all (max) abilities?

1. Nope, there is charachter customization. Which you would realize if you read the previews "right". (Which by I mean focus on the actual facts) You can't even build up an ultimate charachter which actually positivly surprised me. 2. Most games story's "depth" doesn't need a 40 hours games. Especially because 90% of this typical "40 hour story" consists of overly driven cutscenes that are as deep as a simple flyer. Furthermore, especially in regards to writing. Quantity has nothing to do with Quality. Seriously, read the previews again. And not in a mindset of "Everythings dumbed down so I hate things". I have read every single preview posted on this forum. 1. Character customization is not class customization. Yes you can upgrade various abilities, and yes everything can be maxed out. That is not customization. All 4 characters at max abilities and levels will have exactly the same abilities as everyone else who maxed out their characters. That is not customization. 2. This is an action based game that is supposed to have an in depth story. Hack and Slack games are 20 or so hours long, but usually have re-runs at higher difficulties for replay value. True RPGs are 40+ hours. This is a hack-n-slash RPG hybrid and only 15-20 hours. Yes cat in the hat was a great story. Stories do not need to be long, but to make a compelling story that really draws you in, you have to have more length. I am basing all my opinions on every game I have ever played, and all the information on this game as of right now. I am not trying to be a hater. I am calling it as I see it.

What and why? I see this game more relating to Gauntlet or the old X-men arcade game in terms of local co-op. The drop in drop out, is just the same as putting another quarter in the machine and picking a character that hasn't been picked yet. There are no in game incentives to play local co-op other than having another person there, just like an arcade game. There are only set classes, just like an arcade game. The lack of game time reminds me of a souped up arcade game. It has a mere 15-20 hours expected game play. You could rent this game, beat it, and still not have late fees. This game seems like a dumbed down version of what the previous Dungeon Sieges have been. Or in other words, an arcade version. I just get this feeling that they wanted to see what the Onyx engine could do, so this is more like a "test game" than a real effort to please the fans of the series. Uhhh, no? 1. Read the co-op article again. You have way more influence and you can skill/reskill your charachter. (Which your co-op host has to live with) You manage your and his inventory and you have influence in dialouge. The only difference is that you can't take it over in your game. Furthermore local co-op is there to have fun with friends, I thought? (Where it shouldn't matter that much) Or do you play local with strangers? 2. 15-20 hours is still plenty. The previous games weren't much longer. The diablo games are around the same if you rush. Furthermore there is C&C. 3. It's a completly different, way more streamlined system I agree but on the other hand they expanded in other areas. (Mainly narrative) I was referring it to actual game play as being arcade like. You could manage your inventory and character skills with an arcade machine, if they had an inventory button. 15-20 hours of game play in hack-n-slash is short. This game is attempting to throw in a story too, so it's going to be very short. If they want a game with a legit story, it needs to be something near 40 hours. All I am saying is right now, I'm upset because I see so much potential and I think I'm going to be disappointed with a couple things. 1. Length of game 2. Lack of character customization 3. Lack of being able to play my character with another friends character in off-line mode. 4. Lack of the number of characters / classes 5. The lack of depth the story may have, just due to the shortness

What and why? I see this game more relating to Gauntlet or the old X-men arcade game in terms of local co-op. The drop in drop out, is just the same as putting another quarter in the machine and picking a character that hasn't been picked yet. There are no in game incentives to play local co-op other than having another person there, just like an arcade game. There are only set classes, just like an arcade game. The lack of game time reminds me of a souped up arcade game. It has a mere 15-20 hours expected game play. You could rent this game, beat it, and still not have late fees. This game seems like a dumbed down version of what the previous Dungeon Sieges have been. Or in other words, an arcade version. I just get this feeling that they wanted to see what the Onyx engine could do, so this is more like a "test game" than a real effort to please the fans of the series.

This game is really looking like it should be in an arcade and not on PC or consoles.

Sounds a lot like Demon's Souls. I really hope PvP will be implemented knowing this.

You are correct. The mage will still gain the xp and gear as normal, the argument is that the "someone who jumps in" is gaining nothing from it. It works out fine if your playing with someone who doesn't own the game or have his own character. The problem arises when someone who does own the game, has a character already built, and wants to play with his or her friends who also have a character built. I don't know anyone who would want to play on another account, just to play as their friends henchman, when they could be playing and leveling up their own. That's what we mean by not getting experience and gear when playing on another account.

oo What does ANY of this has to do with the initial problem/argument? What are you people talking about. Well this thread is about the lack of XP your companion would get from playing in Co-op mode. Even though the "sidekick" character he would be playing actually would get XP and gear, the player would walk away with nothing of his own. The reason for this is because so far the little information we have shows that we will be unable to play Co-op with Created Characters. The reason my post is relevant to the initial problem/argument is that there have been other games in the past that allowed Created Characters to play in Multi-player mode, and I gave examples of the games that do. It seems that it would not be a difficult thing to add this feature in this game based upon it being used in previous games. So far all of our information points to no Created Character Co-op. Once we see otherwise it's a different story.