Achilles

Did you see Logan Lucky?

It’s a great scene and one of my favorite movies. I think if Chucky delivered that monologue rather than Will, and if Matt and Ben hadn’t written it while attending Harvard, I would have no choice but to concede the point. Which is to say that there’s probably something intellectually risky in pinning your viewpoint to the words of a fictional character crafted by two writers with Ivy League educations

This is my understanding as well, though like you, I’ve never been directly involved in the accreditation review. Also worth noting that public mission has probably been a deciding factor in landmark discrimination cases. GD is correct to point out that paying for MAT101 at Harvard probably doesn’t net you any strong grasp of algebra than it would at your local community college...but that’s not the point

Sounds like you picked the wrong school to attend. I’ve not an expert on libertarian doctrine, but wouldn’t the “personal responsibility” take be that you own the error rather than bellyache about how the university needs to be more how you want it to be?

*proceeds to describe circumstances that are only available to some people* You've repeated yourself, so I shall repeat myself: the purpose of the university is to hone the mind. A university that does this well is a good university. A university that doesn't do this well is a bad university. Technical college is technical college. Trade school is trade school. That's one take. Another is that they are trying to fulfill their mission of producing educated graduates. Can't tell whether this is an actual argument or if you were trying to hit some sort of word count. "The life which men praise and regard as successful is but one kind. Why should we elevate any one at the expense of the others?" It seems that you picked up on my intended tone above, but just in case it wasn't clear, I think we undervalue teachers. There's no reason the people we trust with our children should have to work two jobs to make ends meet while paying off student loans on a Master's and figuring out how they're going to hit their continuing teacher education credits for the year. Depends on what you mean by "best university possible". I think too many people become fixated on Ivy League or private universities. Public universities are fine. Community college is a smart investment, especially if you don't have a specific major in mind after graduating high school. But to your point, HVAC school isn't something to be ashamed of either. To my point, I think a world in which more of the liberal arts that one *should be* exposed to in university setting are transferred to the high school level is a better one. Even if they graduate and go on to vocational school, they've been exposed to the material and can pick it up on their own if they choose to do so.

I made the point above, but apparently it bears repeating: What the market wants and what the world needs aren't always the same. Becoming more skilled at browbeating young people into a career in solution architecture isn't the answer. At some point we will realize that we need teachers and that there aren't any to be found.

As someone who has tried to guide multiple young adults through the second bullet point, let me state unequivocally that it's utter bull****. Nothing sucks more than trying to convince a young person to give up bullet point one because the market only values bullet point two. It's not that the world doesn't need teachers, rather the market doesn't value them. Go in into finance instead.

I think we're mostly on the same page here. We need to decouple economic success from college. There are lots of necessary roles that the market doesn't value (and therefore doesn't pay very well). The purpose of college is to hone the mind. Colleges that print diplomas without producing critical thinkers aren't good colleges. Which is why I think, ultimately, common core is probably a good thing. Unfortunately, I think the cost is going to be the "transitional" generation who started their educational careers under the old guard and got the "new stuff" later. Hopefully it helps to dismantle the "no child left behind" ethos of the 2000's also. My $0.02

Maybe. I spent several years in higher ed, but at a private university. State universities often operate on a mandate to serve the community, so limiting access based on performance would be counter to their mission. Easy access to student loans isn't a bad thing if you want more people in college. A lot of the cost increases are coming from additional administrators and paying for "perks" that make colleges more attractive to "students" who shop for schools. State College A may have a better medical program, but State College B has a lazy river and 3 Chipotle's on campus. Those Chipotle's don't pay for themselves. The cost of said perks get passed on to the "consumer" (formerly "student") who is paying for all of this on loan anyway, so "charge it!" I guess my argument would be that markets have seeped their way into the university system and corrupted it, but I'm sure that one or more libertarians will be on their way shortly to correct my thinking on the matter :) In the meantime, if we want to make college more accessible, we should probably look to regulating the ratio of administrators to students at our public universities. If you want more tips on how to fix the private university system, I recommend The Tyranny of Merit by Michael Sandel.

I think they are great also. My only reservation with promoting them as 1:1 alternative to college is that I'd hate to see us further institutionalize a separation into two classes, where one is exposed to "the liberal arts" and the other isn't. Perhaps the solution is to overhaul the high school system so that more of that takes place before young adults pick a career path.

"Useless" is relative though. The function of higher education is higher education. If you go to college, you should be exposed to those things because those things improve your mind. I didn't know that I cared about any of the things I spent my adult life being passionate about until I was exposed to them in college. If you want to learn a trade, go to vocational school. Exactly. My son does work. More than I would like him to. But that's the money he's not asking me for while he's trying to do other things like eat. The beauty of the grift is that the current system has some of us thinking the problem *is* us.

non sequitur (noun): a statement (such as a response) that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said. Learned about that while studying for my useful degree

Luckily, everyone in my social circle avoided useless degrees. We all planned ahead and got useful ones. All great advice (most of which we follow). Doesn't change the price of college. If this is the economic reality for people in the top 5%, what hope is there for people at the 49th percentile? There is something wrong with the system.

I'm two months away from paying off the student loans for my graduate degree. Meanwhile I've incurred $38k (so far) in parent-plus debt to send my son to three years of pubic university, because he can't bartend his way through the first four years like my generation could. I'll be paying on his education into retirement (assuming I don't die first). My girlfriend has been socking money into 529 accounts for her girls since they were born. With luck, that will cover 2 years of community college and books once they transfer to a university. All this so that our children don't fall back into the economic rut that we scratched and clawed our way out of. There's no reason it should be this hard. For anyone.

Yep. I'm aware. I'm also aware that 1) we're not being economically punished for our role in WWI and 2) the deutsche mark wasn't the reserve currency. Yes, our debt is something that deserves our attention. I just find it slightly disconcerting that *any* talk about government programs or laws that might help people is met with "TYRANNY!", "OVER REACH!", etc, but you get all sorts of triggered any time the topic of national debt comes up.

Man, if you cared as much about people as you do about money...

Probably better not to feed into "whataboutism". My $0.02

That sounds like code for, "I won't obstruct the vote or threaten to have you primaried if you oppose me"

I'll repeat my earlier comment There's a reason that new coke did well in blind taste test and people recall it tasting like garbage and it's not because they changed the formula before pushing it to market. EDIT: Said it before and I'll say it again; people think that they know their own minds, but are actually awful at it. Correctives are needed just to get us to see our own blind spots. Even more to get us on a level playing field. I've already referenced Trout, but this is also covered at length by Kahneman, Trivers, and countless others.

Perception is a powerful thing

Funny thing about "new coke"... If I remember the case study correctly, people actually preferred it in blind taste tests. The issue wasn't that it wasn't good; it was that the customers didn't like that they were being subjected to change. I think John Locke wrote something about that too. EDIT: Should have caught up before responding. Would've seen that @Gromnir already made the same point

According to some of the posts in that thread, the items that were loaned to the White House for this administration are being returned to their respective government agencies. I really hope that's what we're seeing

So if your neighbors misplace some chickens and decide that you stole them, then you’re fine with them rounding up a posse to execute mob justice against you? Because if you think the proper course of action is for them to call the cops (who would then most likely conduct an investigation and determine your assumed innocence), then you’re actually a big fan of the social contract

If you haven't seen the tantrum she threw last Wednesday before things got rough, you probably owe it to yourself to find it. She's a world class wingnut.