Aginorh

It seems to me that description in game is still wrong (I think it refers only as maximum focus +10). Otherwise I would have taken it.

This build looks pretty decent overall. The main gap I'm seeing is that it isn't updated for the White March 2 expansion and later patches, which has a few implications: 1) The enemy AI is much improved, so I don't think it's as good an idea as it used to be to drop Con all the way down to 3. You'll need a little more survivability, especially on PotD. I mean you *could* you'll just lead your party in "times unconscious." 2) The powers added with the WM expansions aren't covered (time parasite is probably the worst rank 7 power now, as it doesn't stack with Deleterious Alacrity of Motion) 3) there are a few gear options I don't see mentioned, mostly from WM 2 (but pick up Angio's Gambeson in Dyrford for Deleterious Alacrity and keep it upgraded). I fully agree with your point 1. In my modest experience of playing hard mode with a 4 characters party, my Cipher (main) gets targeted a lot usually by ranged enemies and casters which I can't take out immediately at the start of the fight. Regarding WM1 and WM2 I do not have them yet, I intend to finish vanilla first and might buy the extensions depending on POE 2 release date. Still the power list and description in this build has been useful to me.

Ok thanks a lot Boeroer !

Hi all, I came across this via a google search. Is the review of cipher powers still accurate ? Thank you. Aginorh

When you have a lightly armored ranger or other back liners, it's often helpful to have them have a weapon and shield option for self defense to get some additional deflection from the shield. As for run away vs stand your ground, I suppose that it depends on the situation. Sometimes it can be helpful to stand your ground so that a team mate doesn't have to chase down the enemy, which he might have to do, if you try to disengage and run away. Maybe let one of your front liners engage this enemy to draw its attention and THEN have the back liner disengage. Also, if possible, perhaps you could have a spell caster cast a spell that would temporarily hold or stun or whatever the enemy so that your engaged backliner can more safely retreat without risk. Thank you, it makes sense. I become slightly more skilled to protect her has my game time goes on... On a side note, does anyone know if you get a penalty for using a bow in melee ? I.e penalty to defense (compared to having 2 small weapons for example), and/or a penalty to accuracy ? What I mean by that, is are you supposed to immediately switch to melee weapon when engaged ?

Yes sounds great but my party has no wizard Otherwise I tested raedric's keep with "MaxQuest formula" and it's a lot easier 1. dual wield DPS Barb really wipes clean the trash and keeps high HPs (with regen of course, gaun's share flail and +50% heal) 2. tank paladin is barely hit and can save the squishies with lay on hands while engaging 2 ppl 3. Cipher kills a lot, charms paralyses, even if a bit slower with breastplate, dies less ;-) 4. Druid does real punishing dmg in bear form, and also got heavy armor to counter his low HPs Cipher and Druid are slower with heavy armor but they are much less chased. In a big opened area it's really easier, and at the contrary of a shock point 2 ppl wide, the Druid can hit for real. He could of course use a weapon with reach but I did not find a good one yet, and it won't work in bear form.

Yes indeed ! Now I really block the way to my cipher believe me ;-) Thing is the barb is also very slow.

Actually the final encounter in Eothas temple was quite tough, even if doable. At this party level (nearly 4, but cipher is 4 already), the barb tank did not much damage (1500 till now), Paladin 2400 dmg but rather squishy, Druid 3500 dmg (hits hard but also squishy), and Cipher 5500. Barb does tank ok but does not keep agro (no skill) and he has few possibilities to interrupt etc. I will try Maxquest formula

Sounds good backup/alternative. But I will try to stick to this team unless it appears really too difficult, and If it does I will use your backup, because I do not want to hire more than those 4 cold blood killers. It's part of my modest challenge to stay with 4 people (and also playing an evil aligned party). I also like the originality of these builds we'll see how it goes.

So I went on and tried my 4 members party like this, a 4 pale elves gang (hard mode) ! pos1 : Barb tank based on Golden Dragon, The from Boeroer) pos2: DPS Paladin (dual wield, based on Bleak Walker ) pos3: bow ranged Cipher cc+Aoe (15/8/16/18/16/5) pos4 : Druid caster (high might / per / int, low con /res medium dex), bear form Just level 3-4 atm, and only the druid is relatively less useful (since very few spells at that level and squishy), but i'll give him a staff and bow to do a little DPS. Barb is ok with tanking, Paladin and Cipher hit hard. Focus goes up quite fast with the bow and high dex. EDIT : it is also worth mentioning this party is a lot of fun to play !

Ok nice, but how about early game ? You just give him a heavy shield and sabre ?

No problem) Barb can be used as dragon-tank; but in usual encounters better use him as dw-dps. So it's a barb (in plate and with Shod-in-Faith boots) with high mig/con/int and low resolve; dual-wielding sabres in early game; and [We-Toki + Rimecutter] or [dual-Purgatory] in the late game. And who switches to MH + Dragon Maw shield after he has used his Barbaric Blow and Heart of Fury. I will elaborate on paladin + druid later. Ok so a dps build for the Barb with high con

As JerekKruger already said, it's because of frost resist. Specifically: - spectres deal freeze damage (via auto-attacks) - some of them explode on death, again dealing freeze damage - shades do have draining freeze ability, which is a paralyze + deal high freeze damage. When they decide whom to attack with it, they give a preference to targets with lowest freeze DR. Having a will defense at 40 or 60, will make no real difference as you are likely to get affected by respective effects anyway. Similar situation is when you try to solo a dragon. You either pump your defenses; or don't give a damn about them at all, and look for other means to circumvent the problem. In your case circumvention would be: including a paladin/priest/or having high lore + preemptive disabling of enemy monsters that try to charm/confuse/dominate your party members. Note: for a ranged cipher, resolve is more useful because of concentration, rather than deflection or will. But still, you don't want to be hit at all; so you either plan to not get hit and drop resolve; or you select a more sturdy (melee plate; or leather/blunderbuss) variant of cipher. You will have a party of 4. While the number of enemies will remain the same. This means you will need enough AoE. While also: 1. have a dedicated (high fort/reflex/hp) tank against dragons 2. offtank that would be able to cover your flank. 3. dps + cc 4. and the last spot is flexible The 3rd spot is taken by your MC cipher. The 1st could be barbarian, paladin or monk. So V1: pos1. Barbarian; pos3. Cipher; These have good synergy with melee paladin and melee-or-ranged: priest, wizard, druid and 2nd cipher. V2: pos1. Paladin; pos3. Cipher; You could complement it with a pos2. Chanter offtank (via Dragon Thrashed) and pos4. Cipher/Druid V3 pos1. Monk pos3. Cipher; You could complement it with a pos2. Paladin and pos4. Priest/Druid Now a note about predefined companions: - Their stats are not bad; but they fit into specific niches. E.g. depending on lineup, you might need one sort of priest or another. - Kana fits nicely into the role of pos2 offtank for V2 lineup. Also having a paladin, cipher and druid in the group will guarantee that he won't fall down. - Durance is a meh debuffer, and has too high resolve. I would not use him in V1. But he could fit into V3 and attack with his quarterstaff. - Pallegina has a bit bland stuffs; but give her mig/int items she will greatly fit in V3 and especially in V1. - Hiravias fits perfectly in V3. - GM fits nicely in V2. Makes a lot of sense thank you for all the details ! So considering your V1, I would think : pos1 : Barb tank (with shield obviously, but still doing dmg (and Aoe), based on the Golden Dragon build from Boeroer) pos2: DPS Paladin (2 handed probably I still have to check builds) pos3: ranged versatile Cipher cc+Aoe pos4 : versatile (by definition) Druid ? I would think a Druid can fit heal and aoe dmg in one class, but of course less efficiently than a typical priest and wiz ? Or would a buff/debuff/heal priest be better (easier) ? With this party in mind I would clearly roll 3 NPCs from start. I hope it is not too much of a penalty early game.

Cold resist. Resolution 3 is absolutely great if you can reliable avoid anything ever attacking your Cipher (and after level 15 when you can use Defensive Mindweb to make your whole party super tanky). Personally I don't like dumping stats as low as 3, so I might consider something like 14/8/16/16/16/8 For a versatile build. At level 15 you might want to respect since Defensive Mindweb is so powerful. Any particular reason you've chosen Aloth, Edér and Durance as your companions? Thank you. Regarding companions, that was just a first idea in fact, to have tank+priest+wiz. Eder is tanky enough. Aloth decent wizard, and Durance well, is ok for buffs and heals ?

Wait, do you want a ranged or actually melee cipher (alpha-strike with blunderbuss and switch to pike)? My first thought was that for a ranged cipher, wood elf would be the preferred race. But since you are going to have a small party, pale elf could be decent for a squishy cipher, as you will attract much less attention from the spectres, shades and alike. Not much micro means warbows. Specifically: take Rain of Goddath or Cloudpiercer and stick to it.As for stat spread it depends on what niche in your group, do you want your cipher to fit: - cc: 13/8/18/18/18/3 - aoe-dmg: 18/8/17/17/15/3 - versatile: 15/8/18/18/16/3 For armor, I would take Durance Robe or Vailian Clothing. Later you could consider Starlit Garb, Raiment of Wael's Eyes or Angio's Gambeson. And durganize them ofc. From mandatory items there are only Gauntlets of Swift Action. And Talisman of the Unconquerable if you can guarantee having endurance above the threshold. From mandatory skills: 4 survival. Make Mental Binding your best friend, and paralyzed targets your focus batteries. Abuse Whisper of Treason and Ectopsychic Echo. Soul Shock has superb damage per focus coefficient and is very effective vs low-DR xaurips. Optimize your focus generation to the point, where you can chain Amplified Waves and keep non-immune enemies perma-prone. Give Detonate and Disintegration a try. Time Parasite is great. And Defensive Mindweb plus Reaping Knives (on a barb) even better. Thank you for your reply. In fact regarding weapons I was thinking of pike as a last resort weapon (would need arms bearer still) Why would pale elf be safer from spectres ? Regarding purpose I would think versatility is mandatory in my small group. But is resolution at 3 not painful for will saves ? On the party I was thinking to try Aloth + Eder + Durance and MC since rolled characters will suffer from lower level. But maybe it's better to roll specific NPCs ?