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MoxyWoo
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Posts posted by MoxyWoo
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Longknife is not a troll, Paladins are bland and boring as hell, he has a right to be "passionate" about the class. Problem is too many classes to balance, In my opinion Paladin should have just been a sub kit of fighter ingame, with a bonus special lay on hands or a spell selection for flavour or something.
Aye. Longknife has tried to do good discussions of it but got sort of attacked by paladin lovers (?) who were equally passionate, but had misinformation on some powers, stacking, aura radius, bugs, cast times (whatever, there's a lot of issues with the paladin) and it devolved into "they can tank well enough" or "LOLZ I beats the game wit' ma paladin" when the underlying issues of bugs, bland play, etc were never addressed.
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Skills, however, are a mystery to me. I want to ask - how many points does a character get? Because I want to put a few points in Athletics, Mechanics, Stealth, Lore... you get the idea.- 3 points Athletics is pretty mandatory. Mechanics is nice to have on one character to get to 10 in it total (save points) but it doesn't have to be your main. I'd also say for a Cipher at range the Lore skill is nice for scrolls, but they rarely have nothing to do.Now, I understand it might be better to focus and use NPCs to fill the holes, but I have no knowledge of what NPCs there are.-NPCs are Wizard > Fighter > Priest > Chanter early gotten. So I like to make one custom character at the inn.-Ranger > Druid > Cipher > Paladin. This can vary a little bit on picking order, though the ranger is usually gotten first.-Bigger meta sense: 1 tank, 2 bad offtanks possible (Chanter not statted for it, Paladin is just a mess), 4-5 dps/support.My question is - between how many skills can I split my points and still function late game? I was thinking of getting Mechanics max, Lore up to 10 and some points in Stealth and Athletics. Is it doable?-6 per level up, with 11 level ups. 66 points total. 1+2+3... etc for the ranks and then add in bonuses. For a Cipher who has +2 in Lore/Mechanics, buying 8 ranks is 36 points for each. That said, rest bonuses, items, etc can get you further. Personally I like leaving Mechanics up to a NPC because Lore helps conversation, and actually having some survival is handy for unlocks as well. There was maybe 1? mechanics related conversation.Also how's that for an attribute spread for my Wood Elf (i really really like the female elf model) Cipher:-Looks great! And have fun!
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Oh geeze. Good catch, was checking the wiki late at night, haha.
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I knocked quite a few foes prone with it long as the Cipher cast it as monsters were moving close. Once bunched, its much harder to get the cone going without moving off to the side to hit them via cone again or the closest one has to be at a certain angle. Usually used Shock at the low levels tho.
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Chanter actually has the same deflection and accuracy as the Paladin. Arguably, once you get the Priest talent for their weapon group, they have better accuracy than paladins at that point. Either way, I think the Paladin tank is not particularly special next to a chanter one, besides a piddling gap in endurance/health that can be made up via racial (well moon god-like). Additionally, I thought Int was a waste on a paladin, but is handy for a Chanter due to their radius buffs actually needing it and hitting more people.
After that, I agree with all your points Mad.. the paladin need more uses, or more worth at later levels. Personally, it was really hard to continue to play my main paladin when every level was like "oh awesome, they get this!" for my other companions.
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Problem is from a practical optimization.. too many melee = annoying.
There are certain fights like shades or similar that are okay with it as they go through and just pound on anyone or anything, but really in PoE.... its hella annoying to accidentally run "around" someone. I had 3 melee at one point and thought it was bad because I couldn't position due to narrow hallways, etc.
From another view point, the 1-2 tanks and then 4-5 dps backrow worked out so much easier.
Edit to add: Paladins aura would realistically only hit 2 other melee currently without bugs. And that's with very careful, very good positioning that doesn't always happen when everyone is bumping into each other.
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Looks good OP.
I ended up using at level 3
1. Mind wave, Tenuous Grasp, Antipathetic Field, Soul Shock,
2. Mental Binding
Most of the 2nd lvl powers are pretty underwhelming yet there are 4 good 1st lvl picks. Whisper of Treason is handy but I always felt it was too slow to cast while confuse basically does the same thing in terms of enemies beating down on them. Also, can be used as an opener unlike Whisper.
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Think there was another reddit thread floating around with the actual DPS numbers even with DR factored in, etc.
Basically, two average weapons (not including sabres) were comparable about 4 dps (20 vs 24) less than 2 handers with the talents available. Vulnerable attack + savage + two weapon, etc. They just took a lot more talents to get there versus just using a 2 hander. Adding in the other modifiers like OSA even if it gets "fixed" to 20% would put them on par with 2 handers then.
Now with barbarian, they have what? 66% dmg of their primary weapon via Carnage, so bigger chunkier hits = better for them. This all said, the sabre is only like 2 dmg behind for a main weapon next to other 2 handers and when that is factored in, they surpass 2 handers.
TLDR: Its fine, even if they "fix" it as you supposedly attack more with dual sabres and the Carnage doesn't suffer that much and should have more attacks anyway.
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I always had a tough time giving up Outworn buckler and going 2 handed/weapon, even though I rarely needed the defense itself it was like.. I'm depriving my group of the paladin "special" item since everything was so little 'reason' to keep them in at later levels.
Yeah it is weird that is in an item in the first village the game puts you in. i'm sure it drops paladin shield idea into peoples heads. But I guess yeah nothing is forcing you to use a shield.
I will give PoE the fact that you basically have a party consiting of any combination of classes and have awful attributes and you will still be fine and enjoy the game if its what you picked while playing on normal.
But the Paladin right now you are forced to use as the PC or the major Paladin mojo (faith and conviction) doesn't work. Even as your PC the Paladin just feels "off". Like it is missing something that Paladin's always have in DnD, P&P, other cRPG's. Might not be able to put my finger on it but the Paladin is just lacking something. Maybe its because Religion/Gods is completely removed? And the Class plays as some kind of Knight/Commander/Leader type of character.
Like if the class was called something else beside Paladin would so many people be disappointed with the class?
If it was called the Marshal or whatever version then I'd still have the same issues if they were made as they were.
Personally, if they were named Marshal and went for the same build types of passive auras, on strike/kill abilities, then they'd be awesome.
Imagine how much cooler the "paladin" would be if they provided boss buffs for every per encounter hit they did or similar "leader/striker/support" style?
Edit: Getting old, think it was actually called Warlord if I remember right not Marshal from 4e.
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I always had a tough time giving up Outworn buckler and going 2 handed/weapon, even though I rarely needed the defense itself it was like.. I'm depriving my group of the paladin "special" item since everything was so little 'reason' to keep them in at later levels.
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Small edit, scrolls being abilities don't matter with accuracy (as they are all 30+3/lvl for base accuracy). So only paladins with zealous focus and rangers with vicious aim get some real craziness for scroll use. That said, rogues do need something else to do and a ranged one has high dex/light armor so are awesome for it versus the paladin.
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Island Aumua, Max Dex/Mig
1. Crippling
2. Quick Switch
3. Blinding Strike or Dirty Fighting
4. Weapon Focus: Ruffian or Soldier
5. Finishing Blow
6. Marksman
7. Blinding Strike or Dirty Fighting
8. Penetrating Shot (depends if what weapons you got).
9. Deep wounds
10. Arms bearer
11. meh
12. meh, prolly Gunner.
For the gunner or arbalest version with quick switching. Having 3 per encounters helps out to enable their own sneak attacks. Mainly, you fire once at the beginning of combat, switch to the next weapon, use an encounter, and so forth, ending up on the last weapon as a crossbow, pistol, or warbow (these 3 ranged weapons seem to be more or less well rounded to me). Talents are switchable, but sometimes finding enough X guns or ranged weapons you wanna swap to was problematic for Arms bearer.
Otherwise.
Wood elf + whatever weapon you like is also good. I'd prolly use a crossbow, anyway this is much less micro than the above which I like.
Add in envenomed + Blunderbuss is a good opener for hard targets due to the 6x chances to land the raw damage from what I read, but I ended up just using a crossbow on this build to keep it as one less character that needed to be tabbed too.
Either way, Lore is also great since they have high accuracy for the scroll usage.
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Yeah, love the Moon Monk.
I know people love the DR and Retaliation of the Fire, but for a monk who has more practical optimization of needing to be healed or endurance coming back via wounds system they rock. Additionally, I thought the Moon aura heal was huge enough without much INT on a monk regardless, though it can't be dumped else Rooting pain hits no one.
Also, love the combo synergy of using a fast cast nuke spell on your monk to get heals for the entire party AND damage with a wizard. (or other ally hitting spell)
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I get the feeling that to make the chanter wanted in a group, the paladin design was to not be as good for their passive auras in both distance and effect.
To not make them tank as well as a fighter, engagement was limited as well as CC abilities.
To make them not as good as a priest, they were given nonstacking auras.
Long story short... it made the class super watered down and the only reason they became good at tanking was because as many discover if your tanks are far enough away, engagement itself is sort of meaningless. The only Order talent that seems worth it is Dracozzi because of earlier retaliation for the 'hard' part of the game and later on buffing accuracy. On paper it seems they were going to turn out fine, being the 'magic' defense tank with some support to fill gaps, but realistically, due to the bugs or stacking issues or small radius, they're just... not bad, nor good... just not worth a party slot after act 1.
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Zealous Focus is currently bugged to effect the entire group, so +6 accuracy can always be up at least.
I respecced my paladin without it to see what the other aura radius was... If I wanted to make a class that selfishly buffed themselves, I would've made a wizard who at least brought the CC and can get the same deflection/health/higher DR on demand as needed. Easier fights, the aura is unnecessary, in hard fights it only saves a priest or chanter one cast (least for Zealous Endurance/Charge).
Most people aren't arguing the Paladin is not "bad" but they're definitely not "good" in the current meta. It basically boils down to:
- Paladins don't "suck" but their abilities bring very little to want them in a group.
- They need bug fixes and stacking.
- Aura ranges are unreasonably small.
- Many of the Order specific talents are lame due to limited use or impact on the group.
- Faith and conviction bonuses for NPCs
In a bigger sense, the paladin has nothing to do but "tank" hence why it does seem decent at the role But I get the feeling despite the faith and conviction bonus on my wizard play through, that the easy fights dont need it, and the harder fights its all about buffs or food or prep anyway, so the paladin is kind of just there.
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Essential Phantom - Pretty good set and forget type damage spell actually. The clone actually does reasonable damage.
It does Shock damage and has accuracy of 81 at the moment. Not sure if it scales.
It also has your spellbinding worn items (not weapons) so very useful as a more use rot finger user for example. It also has damage reduction on what is equipped. So a tank mage is pretty decent with it.
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Lol even cartoons nowdays are complete utter garbage
You Butt Chicken!
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Retail is its own weapon with a 10-15 dmg range if I recall. Autohits.
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So, huge fan of the Cartoon Network show and making a themed party of them.
1. Finn the Human- Ranger + Jake the Dog (wolf). Uses the Swift aim modal in melee. Faster attacks + stalker's link and similar give that team attack feel.
2. Princess Bubblegum- Ranger (no idea on race) + BMO (Boar More Companion). Maxes Lore + Vicious aim = SCIENCE!
3. Marceline- Death Godlike Chanter- I debated druid because she does shapeshift a bit, but I felt like its all about the bass.
4. Lumpy Space Princess- Moon God-like Monk. I just remember her taking a lot of lumps so wounds = lumps.
5. Ice King- Pale Elf Wizard. It ain't easy being blue.
6. Lady Rainacorn- Cipher (no idea on race)
That's it for the main ones, feel free to add suggestions!
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Wizard's Fast buffing spells have 0 recovery time and wearing armor doesn't make any difference. With decent DEX (~15) it's about 1s per buff so doesn't take that much time at all. Just to compare it takes about the same time to get 3 buffs up than for Wizard to cast average spell and recover from it without any armor.
That's very interesting information and it would have been really useful before I finished my Wizard playthrough -- too bad it is not documented anywhere. If this is the case, then PoE buffs are not quite as worthless as I thought...
Incorrect :
Spells that has no recovery time ( mostly self buffs) in description they have a label : Instant Cast
Incorrect :
Wizard self buffs are all labelled Fast cast.
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@Lord Vicious: Nice group!
I'd probably replace one retaliation tank with a Fire Dracozzi PC Paladin now that I've done a little bit with other classes.
Sure they're not as good as monk or barbarian later, but the fact they can start being a retaliation build starting at lvl 2 means they're much more viable and still provide +6 accuracy via Zealous Focus which does seemed bugged(?) to effect the entire party. Mostly for easy lower level and helping accuracy issues without a priest around.
That said, the fact the barbarians rely on OSA bug to really dish out damage and don't come into their own until lvl 5 is also another viability issue to me.
Anyway, mine would be without class overlap and OSA...
1. Dracozzi Fire God-like Paladin. Runs Zealous Focus for the initial accuracy alpha and better retaliation from their talent.
2. Moon God-like Monk. Triple synergy when they get hurt by ally aoe later or by retaliation tanking. Rooting pain procs to hurt/prone things, you gain wounds for turning wheel bonuses. Dual sabres because torment's reach spam is hella fun too and has NO recovery time, hence why it casts so fast.
3. Wood Elf Rogue: Ranged alpha sneak attack.
4. Wood Elf Ranger + Bear companion (good for suicide gathering + AoE) + Lore + Vicious Aim = super nuker on its own if needed.
5. Wood Elf Skaen Priest. Nothing fancy, has a baby sneak attack for Roguely alpha. Sits in the back with the lightest armor like one and shoots so less baby sitting. But when needed provides the good buffs. Also, wards (traps) are hella fun.
6. Wood Elf Cipher. CC + dmg +whatever else.
>> [sideboard]
7. Swapped in at level 6+: Moon Wizard going Dangerous Implements + Blast + Blights route. The added bonus of hurting yourself and providing heals is just good. At level 7 they get Essential Phantom which is hilarious.
8. Swapped in at level 9+: Wood Elf druid. Their aoe spam is ridiculous.
The reason is animation times to replace most of your ranged people with casters. Even with their recovery time, they have higher base damage and faster casting so later on when the per encounters are there, they provide better alpha as you cue up their spells.
And definitely agree any of these can be Moon for the self heals and less baby sitting. Usually 2 in a group are fine though.
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Tenuous grasp is handy as an opener. Confuse = ally = enemies beat down on them. Also has an average cast time vs the other slower Whisper.
I also liked Mind Wave, Soul Shock, and Antipathetic field at lvl 3 instead of going for another pick of a 2nd lvl power.
Of course, once you hit level 3+, Mental Binding is too good to just not keep casting on just about everything.
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Just wanted to add Vicious Aim seems to work for scrolls. Least I tested out the Missile one I had lying around so was interesting to get a +14 accuracy boost.
Example: My wood elf ranger was firing at 70 accuracy, using the missiles I got 84 despite it only having a +10 bonus. I think its bugged since I had only a fine weapon of +4, but either way, scroll use for rangers seems really good now.
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Could someone test scroll use with the Ranger Swift Aim Modal up? I get this weird feeling it works since Vicious Aim was doing so for the accuracy bonus but I can't tell since my computer is pretty laggy in most cases.
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Are Paladins really not that bad?
in Pillars of Eternity: Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!)
Posted · Edited by MoxyWoo
Fighters have meaningful CC and a taunt/pull skill. Paladin has broken or ineffective support skills that are so limited in scope next to a priest or chanter that its unnecessary. Specifically, Liberation doesn't really help versus things you want it too like Charm/Dominate and priests can provide an AoE version on demand since typically the enemy also gives out an AoE version. Reviving also kills your party member it was cast on without crazy high health/endurance. Long story short, the mix of broken/ineffective = bad class currently.
As for the Outworn buckler, this further devolves the Paladin who has superior defenses and should try to play more offensively on the front line to even less DPS. They were never that great at it, but this just exasperates the generalist role they have.
Fighters also have higher base accuracy that can be buffed on demand via priests. The Zealous Focus when not bugged has a tiny radius, so effectively, they can maybe give this to themselves and 2 others in a super tight melee formation. Realistically? its a self buff that doesn't stack with the priest one in hard fights.