MoxyWoo
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Posts posted by MoxyWoo
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Pretty sure you don't make up for the +5 accuracy, +1 dex and + 1 strength of elves with the +10% hit-to-crit of orlan.
Also a few posts up there's 70-90 dps with ranged weapons? Holy crap that would be insane if true! Unfortunately nothing does anywhere near that much, I think too many people have been dicking around with that big spreadsheet and it's no good anymore.
Yeah, I used to pull reasonable numbers off my wizard and had like 35 dps at the top end which seemed about right in play. Now that I think of it, that Arquebus line seems terribly high when melee attacks with the same modifiers and no reload should be whacking for much higher dps.
So I think its broken, sad... it does seem to give the ratios right but the actual dps seems crazy high.
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@MoxyWoo: By my calculations, due to enchantment restrictions, there isn't enough anvils for a secondary damage enchantment. Upgrading Good Friend to Exceptional and adding a +25% elemental lash damage might be more potent assuming accuracy isn't as valuable as a damage. So the question is this: is +4 accuracy or 10% more damage better?
Accuracy to me, rogue has enough damage modifiers on its own + hit to crit conversion, etc. The only time they don't produce a crazy crit later on is when they miss or graze.. accuracy gets you past that. I forget what the number were exactly, but it was like... well if you get +50% dmg from critting, and you get a +4 accuracy increase on that, along with the other categories being bumped up, it was like... more accuracy = more damage = the modifier didn't matter as much.
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Think some other person was saying that about rogues.. much like wizards to me are multiplicative, rogues would definitely fall into that too.
Only problem is, I prefer AoE, and while I have enjoyed my rogue alpha strike taking down X monster as much as the next pc, something is more satisfying letting the monsters just die all at once instead of one at a time. Endless path battles when there's like 20+ things stuck in a choke and then all dying at once or killing each other via CC was just an eye opener for me more than a 81+ dmg or whatever from a rogue.
Funny thing was, I think one of my wizards did have the highest damage in a strike above the rogue for awhile at 93 until lvl 8. Not sure what I was using to produce it as I didnt pay too much attention to the logs, but then I was like... OREALLY ROGUE? What did I take you for!
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It's kind of sad you had to make a ranking for Act 1 only.
But I suppose a ranking of classes for the whole game would be moot, seeing as they all have their own uses.
Yeah, after Act 1 I think every class is viable for sure, or more importantly 5+ is a big level for most classes along with gear becoming available.
Style did matter though, I made a group that relied just on passives/auto attacks to get through so I would never "pause" for example, though I still spammed some abilities later due to boredom. But I noticed my style of play usually involves trying to minimize actions (hence why I like the moon race as its a passive+reactive heal) with some strategy off 2 to 3 characters. This way, I wasn't constantly switching to everyone to perfectly micro, and the micro was all "planned" out from their build selection or similar.
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Posted some numbers on the other thread from the 1.05 attack speed spreadsheet, but basically vs DR 20 and below, crossbow came ahead assuming all talents for hit to crit + sneak attack modifiers, etc.
About +50% more than warbow, its because of the lack of -crit modifiers.
Also tack on "Good Friend" Crossbow modifiers and the damage is even higher.
If I remember from another thread... the "stun" from the "Wrecker" also isn't a true stun debuff, just has them not move for a bit but their stats remain the same. Prone does, but CC might be left to other party members anyway.
I'd assume Arbalest pulls similar better dps for the rogue then.
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@MoxyWoo: I was referring to my thoughts about Good Friend being better than Wendgar after enchanting it to Superb. IMO, Coordinating is better than the attack speed bonus and extra crit of Wendgar.
Speed modifier doesn't work on ranged weapons currently, so Good friend is better from a practical optimization. If it gets fixed though...
Good Friend wins by 2.1 dps difference assuming superb even with the speed Wendgar... it doesn't keep up next to +dmg mod and accuracy gains
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28-41 Damage with a crossbow :DDD i am done with you , keep ****posting in this thread .i am out . There is a reason for Min/Max so you dont end up with such scrubish builds like yours :D
Just a heads up, with the damage on his sheet he has dealt roughly the same amount of damage a lvl 12 character has done at lvl 9. Pretty impressive.
Anyway, theoretical Rogue on the attack spreadsheet... 22 dex, 3.1 dmg modifier (assumes all rogue talents +sneak attack + superb + 20 mig, etc, i think i got all of them, but did this quickly, -5 DR talent, +10 accuracy over the base 20 class for rogue)
DPS vs DR 20
-Warbow: 40.71 dps
-Crossbow: 60.61 dps. (No gunner or surehand added in)
Basically, with all rogue stuff the crossbow comes ahead by the numbers, even at the "lower" DR due to how +dmg modifiers work.
That said the other numbers are vs DR 20
-Arquebus: 86.96 dps
-Pistol: 73.69 dps
-Arbalest: 76.18 dps
Practically though, attack time, and animations of the "guns" will seem like less dps even if the sheet gives them such chunky numbers.
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Little confused.. what is the solid crossbow line on the sheet?
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The update gave them.. 28? endurance total.. so -20% of that is only 6 endurance roughly at lvl 12 no con modifiers. Not much difference.
The main end is +50 from Infuse health spell as needed.
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http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=421004220
But depends on difficulty,
Personally love moon monk using
Dex - Mig - Res - Int - Per - Con
For stat priorities though. So much good partyheals and con can be dumped on moon fine.
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Resolve is good for all characters because interrupts are annoying.
Even just moving and getting interrupted was pretty maddening to me when a tank gatherer was suddenly stopped from positioning or similar.
On ranged rogue with warbow.. I'm always conflicted for them. I don't wanna micro them like some people do as I view them as a low maintenance class, yet like the chunky number they produce with the within 2 seconds sneak attack from the heavy hitting, heavy reload weapons.
to clarify. my view of rogue is to have a good alpha and kill or severely hurt a monster.
i also view them as a class that doesn't need micro as much.
warbow hinders the 1st thing.
guns quickswitch helps but is just 1 more character to switch too.
crossbow offers the practical middle ground as enchants are easy and crit mod is not hurt either. plus it reloads at half the time.
ps ty for the civil comments.. hope that clarified.
pps on tab. hope it reads ok.
edit: Kilrach looks really good too... i'm not sure what to comment on tho. If you mean dps i use the attack speed spreadsheet.
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Pallegina works oddly well as a ranged option due to her miserable might stat and how burning lash aka Flames of Devotion, interacts with bigger damaging and thus slower weapons. She also seems to have some undocumented deflection that equates to a large shield? least in the combat logs.
Mostly paladins without the tank focus are good to save a priest cast of bless I noticed, so her being in the backrow clump of ranged dps is like adding +6 accuracy for 4 people, vs maybe 2 people who don't care about it... Or if rebuilt for tanking, only herself really and sometimes your other tank for 3 DR which is good too, but lacks the use of Flames which is one of the rare good things about paladins... By the time you get her though, 3 DR is not much in the grand scheme of things while 6 accuracy on an alpha for 4 characters is always welcome. AND she doesn't have the main pc faith to deflection/saves bonus.
Going for a quick switch gunner alleviates much of her issues and gives a reason to micro her a little bit.
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So the question how does the extra sneak damage from the ten rogue shots (including crits) compare to the extra couple of shots from the ranger's speed? I wonder how the results are like if the ranger uses Vicious Aim instead too
Also, if we are gonna include Wounding Shot and Marked Prey, shouldn't we include rogue's per encounter abilities and Deep Wounds too?
thing was... op didnt include them despite rogue having all of their abilities.
ymmv.. i was trying to add the differences.
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As always, appreciate your testing Peddroelm but makes more sense if it didn't bypass DR though because an old thread put its damage type as pierce.... Basically making it worthless for a ranger as it had to bypass DR.
Still, in play it seems to melt things, so... not sure.
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Just wanted to add, to do tank duties, you need both layers of defense. DR and deflection/saves. Neglecting one or the other leads to terrible situations in practical optimization.
The only one that can do "dodge" everything currently is the wizard due to the new arcane veil coming in 1.05 and their spells that beef them up. Even then, its a resource dump, so can only be considered a per rest thing. Same for their later Safeguard spell, etc.
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Yeah, I still like rogues since pet micro alone is a bit annoying on a ranger to not lose their damage or get the maximum use out of stalker's link.
Raw DoT + Marking if its working as I think it does would put them at a say 140% weapon damage for their RAW effect basically spread over X seconds, which floors the rogue's damage output for the Y seconds its up for, assuming the shots are roughly the same, which they will be.
Basically, the flat damage bonus of the Wounding Shot despite it being over time puts them ahead of a Rogue who still has to worry about DR despite the higher bonuses.
Unfortunately, there's no way to see this really happening in the combat log, so, it just seems like things die faster.
Edit to add: Of course, all of this is pretty moot for both classes, because a wizard added in for just its RAW dps via Arcane assault in the early game + spells is worth more to me. The fact both rangers and rogues suffer through deflection makes most of the practical optimization of these 2 classes really rough, and I have a tough time letting in one of them versus another cipher or wizard. Though arguably, a tanky ranger has been beneficial on the front line with scrolls due to its higher accuracy, but the fighter fills that niche, same as a monk.
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Chunky numbers aside, the main thing is a ranger can hit 2 things vs 1 thing a rogue can at lvl 12.
50% of your total damage via Driving Flight (don't use this on a blunderbuss because it breaks the pellet system) means they're actually closer to barbarian, or a middle ground between rogues and barbarian.
Warbow:
Ranger: H 17, G4, H13, H14, H15, H14, H13, H 14, CH 23, H 10, H 17, H 16, H 10, G 4 *1.5 (due to driving flight), technically 1.75x modifier for CH? But late.. don't wanna do mathing so everything was just 1.5x. ='s
Ranger: H 26, G6, H20, H21, H23, H21, H20, H 21, CH 35, H 15, H 26, H 34, H 15, G 6
vs
Rogue (Sneak Attack, one condition: Hobbled): H 21, G10, CH 23, CH 19, G 7, H 20, H 12, H 11, H18, CH 18
Rogue (Deathblows, two conditions: Weakened, Hobbled ): H 31, G 20, H 32, CH 25, H 26, H 25, CH 35, CH 36, G 27, CH 41
Sounds about right, the upper limit of a Ranger CH with driving flight included means they deal as much as a rogue vs 2+ target even if they have "2 conditions", and their hits are roughly the same now by the numbers... Also the ranger is technically attacking 20% faster than the rogue, so they get an additional 2 (4 if you include hitting more) shots added in for every attack routine that was given above. And guns it'd be about half of the animation is put into reload, which is halved by Swift aim, so.. that's an additional 1/4 or 2.5 shots for the Ranger over 10 strikes? (bit late and doing math fast).
Assuming extreme pet micro, there's probably about 1 hit for every 2.5 attacks from the warbow at about 10 dmg... or for 10 hits its 40 dmg.
Maybe over simplifying it, but there it is. I'd think a crossbow for a rogue/ranger are actually the best middle ground. Doesn't require quick switching like some builds, had a good crit modiifier, no accuracy loss, and finally the reload animation is half of the guns roughly. Which is decreased even more by the ranger Swift Aim.
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I know.. Peddroelm did the testing, but it basically boiled down to face melting whatever he was attacking.
The ability says Weapon x1 damage (or 100% weapon damage for similar effects).... I only assume since the max of a base shot of a blunderbuss is 54 (9*6) vs the arquebus at 36, which is unaffected by DR for the DoT means just how chunky it can be.
Edit to add: Also from that thread, adding combusting wounds added to each DoT tick separately, which is also nuts.
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Except... he gets it for free (assuming he's picked up at lvl 3) in addition to defender. Kinda cool that way.
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Yeah, that's usually what ended up happening. Crossbow rogues with a crit focus was my first playthrough for the hired companion. She was pretty cool, and one less character to tab too which was awesome to me then.
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One time I made Eder into a barbarian, was pretty cool and that grizzled look seemed to fit the class. Second chance + his good might score and average int was decent for one and when he popped a Savage Defiance when low, he was pretty cool to me.
Durance then became my fighter, and Aloth became my priest (his dex was good for casting buffs) and I played the wizard main.
This was before attribute changes were allowed from IE mod, just the class ones, so thought it was a good spread this way.... Arguably, its annoying most of the default stats don't have dex for some of the casters.
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Good catch Sanctuary, I forgot that most people don't play on Hard+ where the Tier 1 classes shine.
I might be a little bias on fighters because my first play through was with a paladin who didn't have +engage at all, and face tanked the lighthouse with 6 shades/phantoms + Lilith while Eder was running around like a chicken with his head cut off to try and gather anyone when I thought 'engage' meant something else as my backline was being overwhelmed. Eventually, it just boiled down to the fact you have 4 characters spam like fan of flames at the swarm coming for me in that fight, which again, was a caster trick than a melee one.
YMMV but then I figured out it was more about the choke points or similar for the Eothas temple on the second play through testing other builds and +engage was unnecessary yet again.
The only fight I thought maybe he could be good was for hard hitters like forest lurkers as the Moon and dump Con strategy didn't work as well as those would get one-shotted at the very beginning when you face them naturally. Otherwise, I just started to put everyone in heavier armor and the increased DR would save them enough to keep going for most fights until act 2 because they did bring extra CC, damage, and still tanked as well.
Edit to add:
Tier 3 doesn't mean they don't do their job well, they just don't have the "game changers" IMO, or have to be ranked lower to specific builds like the Darcozzi or Monk above for the tough fights. Anyway, fighters are definitely cool, I just always had a weird relationship with them where I thought another X class could be okay for them.
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Resolve is good for all characters because interrupts are annoying.
Even just moving and getting interrupted was pretty maddening to me when a tank gatherer was suddenly stopped from positioning or similar.
On ranged rogue with warbow.. I'm always conflicted for them. I don't wanna micro them like some people do as I view them as a low maintenance class, yet like the chunky number they produce with the within 2 seconds sneak attack from the heavy hitting, heavy reload weapons.
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Yeah, this is party time... I have limited experience playing solo as I found it tedious and maddening to try and balance out damage/defense. I have sent a few of them solo on the 'tougher' stuff like shades and think wizard was fine due to bulwark, same for the Darcozzi paladini and monk. Cipher was okay too, due to Antipathetic field, but they didn't have near the ease of the other 3 to me. By "solo" I mean away from the group and just fighting alone for an encounter.
That said, might be getting old and more props to the people who can do it solo.
[Guide] Tier Class List for Act 1
in Pillars of Eternity: Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!)
Posted · Edited by MoxyWoo
Druid is definitely strong. Guess I disliked their spirit shift as melee always felt too crowded. Spells being equal in utility to a wizard and lacking a raw encounter spam put them lower than the other casters.
I will revisit them... but I totally spammed blizzard during act 1 so with nerfs.. meh.
But it's the same reason fighter is lower than the specific moon monk. It's not bad by any means just not as versatile or behind the other class that does the same job in act 1.
Chanter have a weird spot due to how they get god tier after 21 seconds from phantom... sadly taking on more tier 1 or 2 classes will make this situation come up less. That said I agree phantom is pretty awesome.