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MoxyWoo
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Posts posted by MoxyWoo
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Btw zealous charge is the only aura that provides a rather unique benefit and stacks with similar effects - with chanters speed chant at least. So zealous charge + speed chant = +3.2 speed for the whole party, effectively partywide passive fleet feet equivalent (a bit better even). This seems like a good option for run & gun type of party (would lose its main benefits in confined spaces though)
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where does all the misinformation come from, or is it nothing more than that folks extrapolate hasty conclusions from shoddy premises? is any number o' ways to get the auras to stack with various effects and spells. priests have a number o' ways o' enhancing aspects o' the paladins' zealous focus, making the combination o' the two support classes working in concert particularly formidable. unfortunately, in each paladin thread we needs necessarily deal with the same misapprehensions again and again and again and againandagaianandagainanadagainanadagain...
am s'posing as a timesaver you could simple look up eubatham posts in previous paladin threads and see where he were corrected 'bout crit calculations and stacking and that sorta thing.
HA! Good Fun!
I tested everything myself, thank you very much.
Zealous focus doesn't stack with accuracy buff spells. It's hit-to-crit enhancement might (didn't test), but 5% hit to crit is not that great for a talent, even party wide. Well, if you have nothing else to pick then maybe. It does stack with +ranged/melee accuracy buffs which seem to be a different effect. Priest has both types however. Lvl 1 priest accuracy buff doesn't stack with zealous focus.
Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith at all.
So much this^^
From what I've tested it basically works like:
-Aura = spells, does NOT stack with any spells.
-Chants work with everything
-Radiance works with everything
Basically it boils down to the per encounter stuff stacks, and similar 'class' stuff. Where as auras get over written by any number of buffs easily.
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I've been having a hard time deciding between dual wield and 2h for my barbarian. I've tried both and read a bit on these forums; seems to me that 2h is better when facing high DR opponents but dual wield is more effective against enemies with less DR. Basically I'm wondering if it is equally viable to get both weapon styles and switch weapons according to the situation, or to just get dual wield and vulnerable attack to deal with high DR. Does anyone have any thoughts as to which would be more effective, or if they are comparable?
If just looking at base Carnage which is based off the Primary weapon only (i.e. not the off hand weapon) then 2 hander is considered the best as the ~60% dmg from your main attack will now be area via Carnage. Arguably, a sabre can sort of keep up as the higher base dmg one handed weapon even factoring in DR.
Add in One Stands Alone (currently bugged) and you get +20 dmg to each hit, and that's when dual stilettos pull ahead due to the +increase on each hit. Barbarian along with rogue are probably the only 2 viable dual wield classes due to this. Though monk is also good with Torment's reach spam.
In the talent sense, there's a lot that goes into dual wielding. Two weapon, vulnerable attack, and the focus itself. Unlike 2 handers that start strong and remain so due to the alpha nature of most encounters in PoE.
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Because things that deal with the lunar cycle are overpowered.
Moon God-like, menstrual cycles, werewolves to name just a few.
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Your build is fine, wizards just take a little bit of ramp up to feel awesome.
I've been using a moon god-like with a similar stat spread as yours, though dumped CON/PER to get DEX > MIGHT > INT > RES and blast talents with dangerous implement. Nothing fancy, but when you get 5th lvl, you have Kalakoth's Minor Blights to cycle through every type of element for 1 3rd lvl slot which is nice for stamina and your aura heal via race makes you a decent HP support when Aloth and yourself start to pew-pew. Saves the spells for things that matter and when double hits of from the wand/blast that target deflection and reflex respectively, make it very easy to keep going.
I also enjoyed Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff and beat sticking behind Eder before then. +8 accuracy and ~30 dmg per hit is crazy good for a 1st lvl spell, and with your stats, you can also enjoy the endurance drain it provides. Just make sure to let the melee'rs get in first.
Finally, I highly recommend Eder with his saint's armor tanking + chill fog. It naturally has a good cold resistance, and between his defenses + endurance regen as a fighter, you and Aloth can stack them for some pain on monsters (except for some annoying starter ones like shades, skeletons, and basically 'undead' ones, even tho PoE doesn't have undead per se) along with crowd control. And if I recall, I got one of those freeze cloaks that return endurance for every freeze dmg you dealt which was awesome too.
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My vote is for Dracozzi. Mainly for synergy. PC paladins are all over the place for their abilities and make ok off tanks with the faith and conviction bonus to defenses. With the earliest retaliation via Fires of Dracozzi Palace that targets reflex they are good for all of act 1 as a tank.
After that.
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Meh.
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Paladin doesn't have that luxury and maybe equals some of the effects toward end game without the nice 20+ second game changer the chanter has. Chanters also don't interfere with priest buffs, so currently the least bugged support along with priest class. Additionally, the paladin has very limited usage of abilities that don't impact the support role heavily unless +10 to 16 accuracy (that maybe overridden by priests) is exciting as their helpful support abilities are either working as intended and suck, or not working as intended and still suck, or just don't have enough uses in the game (pick one, all 3 apply).
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-snip- On the otherhand, a Darcozzi Paladin's +10 accuracy stacks with everything. Zealous Focus also stacks with Inspiring Radiance and Devotions of the Faithful. -snip-
While your post is helpful information wise, it does not address the lackluster support provided by paladins. Only a very specific Dracozzi order which has 2 talents devoted to support and tanking(retaliation early) can be considered "adequate". Solutions were provided by Longknife in his other thread in a constructive and assertive manner with the unfortunate side effect that he is now being "lynch mobbed" by others as yourself for small points when overall is was a GREAT topic trying to enact change and bug fixes for the class.
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Chanter is specialized, but has action economy on its side. Their chants just keep on going and going regardless of if they're attacking, using a scroll, tanking, casting an invocation after the 20 second mark, etc.
Paladin doesn't have that luxury and maybe equals some of the effects toward end game without the nice 20+ second game changer the chanter has. Chanters also don't interfere with priest buffs, so currently the least bugged support along with priest class. Additionally, the paladin has very limited usage of abilities that don't impact the support role heavily unless +10 to 16 accuracy (that maybe overridden by priests) is exciting as their helpful support abilities are either working as intended and suck, or not working as intended and still suck, or just don't have enough uses in the game (pick one, all 3 apply).
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I think this actually stemmed from dnd 3.5 class tier talk back in the day.
Its not that any of the classes can't beat the game, its just the some of the classes clearly bring more to the table than others with versatility, tricks, better role (tank, dps, support) and similar.
Personally, I love my main PC paladin as its my first playthrough but recognize that many of the bugs, stacking issues, limited use of abilities, etc, really made it a niche class that needs to be built around. I.e. It needed careful and heavy optimization to equal a badly built fighter, barbarian, chanter, or monk where as most times I think those 4 semi tank classes get a free pass at being good.
Anyway, Exoduss, I agree that there doesn't need to be a heavy amount of optimization in most cases, but the paladin and ranger do need to be built specifically to be good and making a mistake unlike the other ones is pretty unforgiving in those classes. From the pet, to the faith/conviction, to the first skill pick even at the beginning without good meta knowledge its hard to make them "good" tier.
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Exoduss explained most things as well as Dracozzi being one of the better of the whole bunch. Oddly, passionate/clever tend to be more like emotional/cheeky which is very fun for me.
Mechanically, you want to pick the dialogue options (can be turned on to see via option menu) that are the above to gain the faith/conviction bonuses that make you an off tank that barely equals the fighter. Additionally, Fires of the Dracozzi Palace (2nd lvl class talent) is amazing for all of act 1 and part of act 2 as you get retaliation much faster. Optionally, I like less micro manage so used Moon God-like even though Fire can double dip via Scion of Flame for synergy, as Moon then gave you the feeling of healing via auras.
Fires also targets reflex which is a weak save for many monsters so can hit reliably. That said, the base damage is always ~10 burn, so won't increase with levels, but for a talent that is good for much of the harder parts of the game to me, its a great deal. Later on, Zealous Focus and having the inspiring exhortation for +10 acc for 20+seconds was also a great per encounter support ability. Though once again, all of these DO NOT stack with priest spells, but DO stack with their Inspiring Radiance, so you can use Durance as a disabler rather than buffer which is pretty decent when spells do matter, so there's some flexibility to hopefully get that same feel.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77712-class-build-dracozzi-paladini-aka-the-pc-paladin/
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So Dracozzi like Passionate/Clever responses... the acronym is PC... hence the PC paladin.
This is just my fun build I used on normal and with a lower micromanage than other classes. I still think paladins need a buff or bug fixes on stacking overall but I'll at least try to highlight some things.
Moon God Like [Living Lands]
Might 19
Con 5
Dex 19
Per 3
Int 15
Res 17
(Stats were all over the place because I thought maybe I'd want to switch to being a damager with my other ranged DPS at some point and high dexterity would help that way, and thus give them Zealous auras, but see below...). I also noticed with the paladin's conviction bonuses as a main PC I was actually better as an offtank. You get 1 tank companion, 1-2 physical dd, and the other 5-6 are fragile DPS or support, so the one gap in my line was getting one more off tank that didn't need much baby sitting.
Offtank version
1. Flames of Devotion: 2/enc, the burn acts as lash damage so is added before DR which is nice. Lash weapons make this check as normal though.
-Typically, you have 2 weapon sets, 1 dual wielding 2 average weapons for a burst via this skill, and the other using the offsworn buckler and a drain weapon.
2. Fires of Dracozzi Palace: When using the above, +5 Freeze Damage Threshold, and 15 second (+int modifier) Fire shield. This gives 10 base dmg (+might modifier) as far as I can tell. Basically, you start retaliating nicely for all of act 1, and with Moon God-like you can actually take the hits.
-Additionally, you can stand inside a chill fog from Aloth with little damage using Eder's saint armor. As this build is an offtank on the front lines, it works out nicely.
3. Zealous Focus: +6 accuracy for the group that actually stacks with Durance's Inspiring Radiance but none of his other spells.
-I'm not sure if my playthrough is bugged, but I was able to keep most of my group under this buff as long as I had the ring of overseeing on as well as +2 int item. That said, without both 17+ int and overseeing, I could barely effect Eder at first despite the 15 int and one item or the other.
[Offsworn buckler and the DR belt is available around this time from the merchant in Gilded Vale]
4. Vulnerable Attack: -20% attack speed, -5 Damage threshold bypass.
-Purely for convenience of burning a little faster via Fires of Dracozzi or doing a big hit with Flames of Devotion. Also, I just couldn't decide on a weapon group so a focus could go here for people who know the game better than me but having retaliation so early was a nice feature of this build.
5. Liberating Exhortation: Setup for the other Dracozzi talent, actually quite horrible to use for anything else.
-So situational it almost made me want to reroll, but it becomes better with...
6. Inspiring Liberation: +10 accuracy for 20 seconds (+int modifiers) is quite beastly.
-This is where the build ends, most of the other talents and skill picks are up to the individual, and even the other lvl 4 pick is debatable with things like Hold the Line, Weapon/Shield, Scion of Flame and other more tanking talents. I just wanted to preserve the jack of all trades feel.
This build actually does feel like a paladin that does the support and offtank. Moon Godlike gives you incredible heals for the entire group (thus less micromanaging), makes you a viable offtank despite being 20 or so deflection behind Eder, and finally having retaliation much earlier than other classes is good too. The only real con was constitution (pun intended) due to almost going through my health, (not endurance) so I would need to rest every so often from that rather than running out of spells or similar.
[Please note though, its only because I used the master race Moon God-like, played a PC paladin on normal, and similar choices to make my game play easier that this build felt good. I still think paladins need a buff overall, but this is the one build that actually jived with my playstyle and after Act 1, "everything is awesome, everything is cool when you're part of the team."]
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Different sources stack afaik. For example, race is one, talent is another, weapon/shield is another, equipment (armor, capes, gloves, etc) is another, spells, and finally per encounter is another. The higher in any of these slots will override the other. For example, having a +2 might helmet, and a +1 might glove, the helmet would override as both are in equipment.
For example, you can use Zealous Aim (Paladin) with the Priest Holy Radiance per encounter +Acc power, but using Bless will override the accuracy bonus of Zealous Aim. (wonky since Aim aura counts as a spell I guess or just another bug of stacking).
Pale elf afaik stacks with everything since its a racial. Brigandine armor is also a good choice if you decide to go this route OR you can focus on cold spells with Scale armor, both having respective bonuses in the elements that do stack. I'd still go for fire mainly because fan of flames is so burst damage but standing inside a chill fog is pretty... chill. Also requires less talents since chill fog is much lower damage, where as the fire route means you want/need snake reflexes, and Scion. (weapon/shield is also good, but not viable for a wizard due to losing even more accuracy they need and the melee staff spell being your main go to).
And despite the pale elf recommendation, I only recommend it with Aloth or similar lower might companion casters as the +% dmg from vaguely optimized might will bring a lot of pain to your main character due to the lowered stats of a wizard. Offhand a paladin dracozzi tank can get this style down pretty well with the palace talent at lvl 2 giving them +5 Freeze Damage threshold as well, along with a very early fire retaliation which is awesome for all of Act 1.
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She's easily the worst npc companion, no idea how you make her awesome, lol.
After 1.03 she has one of the best might/dex stats which is why so many people use the other companions with guns (or other high dmg weapons), where as she actually has the flexibility to have some build paths above due to the ranger +acc stuff they gain. Additionally, +15 acc that comes up quite often for a dwarf is nice and helps her crit.
That said, my playstyle tries to minimize micromanaging (getting older, so queuing up every action was fun 10 years ago, but not so much for me now) for the random fights, and part of that is to have good physical direct damage which Sagani provides really well.
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I feel there's enough micro managing as is, so I actually enjoy moon godlike for the heal (and thus party heal) on a high might/decent int builds like you have here. With no on kill effects (death shines here), not wanting to be a retaliation tank(fire or moon) and finally nature just sucking. I enjoy moon for one less thing to micro.
Another offbeat use is the Pale elf, it could be argued with the many fire spells, having Scion of Flame is awesome for a wizard using fan of flames, fireball, etc to get the damage boost and with 15+DR on fire spells, then Aloth can nuke your melee wizard without too many consequences as well.
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There is nothing really missing, Sagani is actually decent with the might and dexterity.
The class talent she is missing is Swift Aim as a Ranger using a Blunderbuss (or similar slow weapon) with marked prey + stalker's link makes them one of the best gunners around. Reloading, and attacking much faster with some of the best guns is what makes rangers so good. Additionally, adding a rogue with her other hobble skill makes for a very nice volley at the start of combat. The problem is she usually automatically has Weapon Focus: Peasant which seems to make you want to use hunting bows which are a decent weapon, but not nearly as great as guns overall for companions.
OR
You can use the weapon focus: peasant with Vicious Aim and love the hunting bow for crits next to guns or similar lower crit items. Then use Envenomed Strike (which can also crit for its raw damage) to give her much better single attack. Ideally this is done with a crossbow actually, but with her weapon focus already picked this is an alternate way to go.
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Just use the IE mod and change her talents to the above.
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Just like her for the fact she is reliable physical direct damage which is sorely lacking in all the other companions.
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Barbarian because mo-R-k doesn't exist.
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Longknife did a great job bringing up the issues with the Paladin class in a constructive manner as well as solutions for the class. Very assertive and awesome.
I'd add on that Paladins can be "okay" for the Darcozzi ones due to the retaliation based build you can get off it with the fire shield talent. It does it much earlier than the barbarian fire tank, has the high defenses from paladin to avoid crits, and finally targets reflex much like they can target fortitude, which makes it very good for the 15 seconds of each flames of devotions (or 30 secs total + int modifier) you get off it. I still like moon god like for the race, but double dipping with fire god like is also an option.
So up to level 5 they are equal to barbarians in that role. The problem is after that, they suffer from all the points brought up in the other thread, along with VERY limited use of their abilities.
Other bugs or features?
-Lash/Flames of devotion is all just an additive damage modifier that isn't effected by DR sometimes. So a bleakwalker paladin with +100% (50% flames +25%x2 talents) can get some nasty hits via dual wielding (due to the full attack)... But only 2/encounter. Soon as you add a proper lash item, it seems DR is checked as normal (least from my testing of it). Example: I hit for 20 (25 - 5 DR) and my flame does 12.5. But soon as I add a lash item, it becomes 10 dmg.
-The above means any talents like Scions of Flame doesn't work on Flames of Devotion.
-Flame shield from Darcozzi is a melee attack. Drain items work with it. Scaling seems bad on it per level.
-Holy Radiance (Priest) works for stacking of accuracy with Zealous Aim.
-Flame shield is unaffected by what weapon you have equipped unlike retaliation. It does benefit from talents/modifiers though.
Torment's reach mechanics ..
in Pillars of Eternity: Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!)
Posted
Attack animation if I recall from the other thread is the same for average or fast weapons. Recovery varies, but wouldn't matter with Torment optimization.
The higher base damage from Sabres would then be the best damage. As you gain +50% crush lash damage from Torments, having a higher base is better. This is all assuming that these sabres are enchanted fully.
From a practical viewpoint, Moon God-like for the heals and less baby sitting. Also the INT does double duty with the aura heals then for the party.
Torments and Rooting pain are Area of effect attacks afaik. Hence why might modifier will work for the cone/area, but modals/talents like vulnerable attack, etc, won't.