Lancer

Amen.. Finally someone that is talking some sense! Give this person a beer and a pat on the back! *** LANCER INFLUENCE: INCREASED!****

Ohhh.. Is *that* what this is? All this time I thought I was in the basketweaving forum...

Yes.. but the main problems that some games like V:tM and KOTORII suffered from had nothing to do with bugs or patches. In the former's case it had more to do with performance issues even if you had a system which exceeded the minimum specs. And KOTORII was a big disappointment again not so much because of bugs, but because it was half-a$$ed the last third of the game. In games like Fallout, Fallout 2, and even Arcanum you can ascribe many problems to bugs but with KOTORII and V:tM that excuse alone just doesn't cut it. Bugs might be part of it but the main reason why those games felt less polished is a different one altogether. I agree with the original poster about recent RPGS feeling more rushed than ones out even a couple of years ago. What has been going on?

I don't know about that. My classes are just fine especially if you spotlight everyone's abilities.

But Jediphile isn't. Again.. you see? People are different. I am different from you or Jediphile. You are different from him and so on.. It all comes full circle to tastes and subjective preferences once again. You can talk about strengths and weaknesses of systems all day long (and even claim a system's superiority) until you are blue in the face but at the end of the day these are still based on one's own subjective preferences (which are neither right or wrong).

In fact, in Jediphile's case.. Forget about other rulesets entirely. Just finish making your own. It will be the only way you will find some peace

I am only not right in the case of perfectionists like you The problem is that I get the impression from your posts that you will never be satisfied with any ruleset. You are never going to be satisfied because you will always find faults with any ruleset you come across. You are too damn picky. I say , pick a system, tailor it to your liking and don't worry about it. Or just make your own.. Might be the only solution to your problem.

Huh? You were specifically talking about 2ndEd and how broken elves, magic and the mult-classing rules are. I counter with the min-maxing problem in GURPS or FUZION or many other skill-based systems. Not to mention that GURPS breaks with powerful characters as well.

Any worse than the GM telling a player they can't have THAT set of skills/stats or else the skill-based game will get horribly broken? So much for complete customization.

There are no multi-class/dual-class characters in Mystara.. For one.. Min-maxing of stats also allows characters of skill-based systems to be broken as well. i.e. GURPS, FUZION..etc An experienced DM/GM can address all the problems inherent with *ALL* rulesets whether skill-based or class-based.

Agreed. I hate that in AD&D. I want to *make* characters. But in AD&D there is a tendency for players to roll and then see what they can get away with... I have always hated rolling for characters. I use point-buy.

More streamlined.. But I dunno about less die-rolling. If you want to talk about roll-play and munchkinism, nothing beats 3E. Just because 3e is more streamlined doesn't necessarily make it a better system. The fact that PCs now can have a zillion classes is just plain absurd. Enough time to learn a rules system, but apparently not enough to customize it. And at a junior high level, you probably were not thinking about customizing AD&D to your liking. I don't blame you.

tisk.. tisk..

I can't be a ROLL-PLAYER.. I don't play 3e. And I make my own adventures 95% of the time. I hardly ever use TSR's hack and slash modules. You can make AD&D a ROLE-PLAYING game. I play in Mystara and Planescape.. Settings that are hardly about roll-playing (in particular Planescape).

So you didn't have enough time DMing it to try to customize the system to your tastes for whatever reason. I started with OD&D back in '92-93..Then I moved on to AD&D. Some 12-13 years of experience. When you have over a decade to fool around with it, you start tinkering with it until it becomes something that you are proud of and does what you want it to do. Apparently, this doesn't work for everybody though (Jediphile). But for every person like Jediphile I assure you that there is a person that feels like I do. I have a theory-- It seems that the more time you have to tinker with a system "fixing" its problems the more likely you will come to like it. People who have short stays with AD&D are much more likely to find other systems much better since for all practical purposes they just didn't play with it enough to address its problems. When you stay long enough with a system AND successfully tailor it to your tastes over the years you won't find other systems better.. believe me...

No I don't. I just maintain that making an AD&D character is easier than making a character in most skill-based systems for the reasons I have discussed above. If having that opinion makes me a roll-player then I am lost as to why that is so.

Then there is no such thing as a good system because all systems fall victim to the house rules of picky GMs/DMs/ST. Don't believe me? Do a websearch. If I had the patience to rewrite Shadowrun, GURPS, or even WoD, I would. I am assuming you have Dmed (not only played) AD&D before. How long were you an AD&D (not 3e) DM for..How often did you do it? Honestly?

Which is what I have to do in skill-based games..Which I have no problem with. But admittedly it is considerably more effort (particularly on the player) than just picking a class in AD&D and start rolling dice within 5 min.

If you are starting off with high level characters from the get-go it will take a considerable amount of time doing all these things although assuredly less than building a 200+ point character in GURPS. I mostly start with level one characters when I play so this is not really applicable in my campaigns. It makes no sense to throw beginning players into a higher level of play.. At least, I would only do that for more experienced players anyways. Choosing priest spheres and the like I resolved in my campaign a long time ago when I converted the WotI boxed set Immortal priests to AD&D rules. I have templates for all my different priests. You talk here as if the only systems I have tried are class-based systems like AD&D/OD&D. LOL. I played and/or read through GURPS, CoC, Shadowrun, Cyberspace, SLA Industries, d6, WoD, FUDGE, FUZION, Savage Worlds, even the Hercules/Xena RPG :"> (currently going through Oroborus)and several other skill-based systems yet for the possible exception of SLA Industries none approached the quickness of AD&D/OD&D. CoC kinda does although it does that by cheating.. It just lacks rules altogether. You can if you have Player's Option. Although I have never felt compelled with customizing AD&D classes. Especially since the standard classes work so well with Mystara... Except for the Paladin class which I borrowed from OD&D.

Only *some* skill-based games come with templates though. If memory seves me, I don't recall there being any in the new WoD book or the new d6 rulebooks. The GURPS basic set does have a limited number, although, they are only usable for fantasy campaigns. There are no templates for modern or sci-fi characters. There are also no templates for a character who wish to be a mage, priest or demihuman character..etc. I don't own GURPS fantasy so I am not sure if this problem is corrected then. It is true that Shadowrun third edition does have a good variety of different templates although we are all familiar with how horribly complex it gets after the character gets created. Even with the templates, however, it doesn't take away the fact that the player needs to have a substantial familiarity with the skill lists --the bare minimum--- understanding how his own skills work. And if there is a skill he wants replaced it is back to reading the entire skill list again.

Ahhh.. nice play on words except I am not talking about 3e/D&D here. I hate 3e precisely for the reason that for a "class-based" system it has the complexity of GURPS. And there is no good reason for that. I agree that 3e is horrible for a beginning player. I can't stand 3e, and you know this. There is no way you can convince me that just choosing among a few character classes and "GO" (like in AD&D, OD&D) is harder than creating a character in skill-based systems. In skill-based systems you must have a very good idea about your character concept to begin with. This is compounded by the realization that most skill-based systems have quite extensive skill lists which the player needs to have had substantial familiarity with before even beginning character creation. You can't just throw a beginning player into a game like GURPS (or even WoD) before spending at least an hour or several hours just reading over the skill lists. The AD&D templates are especially appropriate for entry level play because a lot of the work has been done for you already. Just because a character hasn't been created from scratch down to skills doesn't mean it can't be roleplayed. On the contrary, templates provide useful broad guidelines on how a character *can* be roleplayed. At the same time none of these character classes are so restrictive that it disallows original roleplay. Even a reasonably "restrictive" class like the Paladin still leaves a lot to the realm of possibility.

Only when you know exactly (including skills) how you want your character to be. Otherwise, classes are just as good, if not superior and in most cases easier for beginning players to get into.

OD&D Paladin class >> Champion Class

They sure do because I am still playing the same setting-- Mystara. That's because 3e tried to do too much by trying to make rules that would appeal to every freakin' body (powergamers, munchkins, roleplayers, metagamers, old school, new school, elementary school, young, and old, skill-based, class-based..etc). Not to mention that there were people complaining forever about the earlier AD&D incarnations for their "restrictions." So how do you appeal to everybody and make everyone shut up? Give everbody the option to do anything they want regardless of how ridiculous it is. This strategy backfired somewhat as many AD&D vets (myself included) got alienated by the confusing mess which was the new system. But I digress... At the end of the day, it is still up to the DM to decide what he or she wants in his campaign. And the 3e DM is definitely at full liberty to not use everything 3e has to offer just because it is in the PHB and DMG. Many of the things 3e allows is just plain ridiculous in most fantasy settings.