KDubya

Either : 1/ the added penetration is deemed more powerful than mixed damage types or 2/ the weapons have different speeds (or are meant to) ? or 3/ possible oversight, possible future tuning The speeds are all the same. I'm thinking it #3 an oversight and the Estoc should be bumped up in damage to the polax and Morningstar level.

In my opinion you're over reacting. Lose your precious fighter-exclusive Aware ? Priests can bestow it as well, on the full party. Lose your precious fighter-exclusive better defenses ? Monks get some as well you know (and then some more, actually) If I read them correctly, in your own words, fighters are in a very good position right now thanks to these exclusives. It then follows that one should, to maximize their effectiveness (your words here), pick a fighter class ? Fighter coupled with whatever, but fighter nonetheless ? That may be too much of a pigeonhole to be left as is, which is why a change is required. That this change has a positive effect, and its ramifications and subsequent adjustments remain to be seen. So you see no cause for concern for power creep when everyone will take the +6 accuracy as a proficiency pick as soon as its available? If everyone has more accuracy the mobs will need to have additional deflection or else they encounter difficulty gets skewed.

The thing is that the Estoc pays extra for its penetration. The Morning star, Great Sword and Polax have two damage types as their 'thing', just like Estocs have +2 penetration as theirs. Now Estocs, Polax and Morning Star pay a premium cost of less base damage for an additional +2 penetration, so far so good. Then Estoc take a further damage reduction to base damage for what reason .....?

Nope, I'm afraid that wasn't clear, at least not to me, sorry. You are working under the very misguided assumption that Obsidian wish to implement every single ability and passive as generally available. That is simply pure speculation at this point my friend, there is no supporting evidence. Now, I'm going to be a bit aggressive, I apologize in advance. You keep going on about fighter this, fighter that. Let's be honest here, this is all this is about. Fighter this, fighter that. There is no concern for any other class whatsoever, all you seem to care about are your precious fighters. This is not speculation, this is fact, you've written it yourself : "the reference to passives was in regards to the fighter passives" You're bitching like a crybaby for something that is not even implemented yet. You're bitching over the possibility that things might not turn out how you'd like. Perhaps you would better be served by "wait[ing] and see[ing]", as opposed to dismissing the possible change outright. My understanding is that the passives being implemented into the weapon proficiency list are primarily the weapon style ones like weapon and shield and the defense boosters like Bulls will. Most of these are currently Fighter exclusives so I'm theorizing as to what this will mean for Fighters in particular. Discussing the possible ramifications of what may or may not occur with proposed changes is why the devs have the beta and ask for our input. Better to hash it out now rather than wait until its been coded and added to the game. I see this addition as adding to power creep as well as restricting freedom of choice based on how efficient a single path will be. So far no one has shown me where my fears are unjustified.

This is complete bull****. One can roleplay PotD just fine. No needs for efficient choice in character design. So PotD is easy when you don't understand the game mechanics and pick abilities wily nily?

How about a brawler-type rogue (probably a Streetfighter)? Rogues need not be the standard dextrous, evasive type, yet the current system only allows for Snake's Reflexes. Having something like Bear's Fortitude would be more suitable for that character. Sure, you could multiclass to Fighter, but then it's not really a "brawler" rogue, because Fighters are themed around being disciplined and trained. I've played on PoTD and did fine picking things that weren't necessarily mechanically optimal, but appropriate for what I wanted my character for me; it really doesn't require a fully min-maxed combat monster, and I'm not very good at the game to start with. In this case I'd go with my option #1 and add the passive defense boosts to the ability list not the proficiency list. The main point I'm trying to convey is that adding them to the proficiency list instead of the ability list is going to have unintended consequences. Well that and Weapon Focus is an autopick. Probably better to leave that one as a barbarian exclusive.

If this does happen, they can easily crank up the power of the discipline stat, or the active fighter abilities, to make single class fighters competitive. If the answer to avoiding the autopick of weapon focus is to remove it that sounds like a kick to the balls for Barbarians. That requires additional changes to the Fighter class which no one has said will occur. If it does get changed then that will need to be a further discussion. Active abilities are all limited by drawing on the same power pool. I find that as a multi-class I'm better served to focus and spend my fighter resource on keeping Disciplined Strikes up at all times and skip any use of knockdown and Into the Fray. Also additional power creep for Fighters is not necessarily the answer or a good thing in general. No place in the discussion ? I'm afraid you're very sorely mistaken. This thread is either your personal view of what things should be, and you have no wish to discuss them with anyone, just to get them out here. If that's the case, you should state so and let this thread die of natural causes when it slips from the front page. Or, it is an actual discussion, a debate, in which case it is not for you to set the terms of what are valid or acceptable points of view and arguments. That, my fellow backer, would be a very arrogant (and mistaken indeed) stance. POE1 was not, is not, and will not be balanced around PotD. POE2 is not, and very likely will not be balanced around PotD. Obsidian have made it clear on several occasions (including in the description for PotD ingame really) that this is a special mode intended for the more hardcore of us. PotD is the exception, not the rule. Neither do fighters and barbarians. There is no vanilla, out of the box penalty for using a weapon you're not proficient in. Those come from choices you've made at character level-up when choosing your skills. If you want an example of a character which does get an out-of-the-box disadvantage, refer Rogues. Rogues lose their passive (sneak attack) for attacking an unflanked, unafflicted target. Should sneak attacks be changed to always proc, that they not get a penalty ? Edit: rogue example Not sure how Rogues needing to backstab is relevant to a discussion on power creep caused by giving everyone Weapon Focus? Fighters who have graze on hit with proficient weapons lose that when they use something else. This is the penalty to which I am referring. Just because something was in PoE does not mean it needs to be in Deadfire. Arguing for inclusion based on past inclusion does not further the discussion on whether something should be in the game. Yeah no you are, in my opinion, mistaken here as well. Rooting Pain is a passive. Rooting Pain is hilarious when it procs all around you and interrupts every single enemy. Three times. Per second. Backstab is a passive. Backstab is hilarious when you crit that unaware priest for 130 pierce damage. And even more so when you get to repeat the process 2 more times during the fight, with Shadowing Beyond's upgrade. I thought it was clear that the reference to passives was in regards to the fighter passives for weapon styles and the defensive boosting passives. Again someone please give an explanation as to why a character needs access to a weapon style or a defensive boost other than for increased power?

Since the medium speed one handed weapon besides the spear are bugged to fast speed I've tried working with only unbugged weapons. The two handed weapons have three tiers of damage. ​Tier One base damage 19-25, Penetration 5 Great Sword - 2 damage types, slash and pierce, Modal is more damage (+50%) at cost of accuracy (-20) Pike - increased reach, Modal is exposing enemy (-10 deflection for 10 seconds) at cost of damage (-50%) Quarterstaff - increased reach, accurate (+5), modal is +20 deflection at cost of recovery (+100%) ​Tier Two base damage 14-20, Penetration 7 Polax - 2 damage types slash and crush, modal is extra engagement (+1) at cost of damage (-25%) Morningstar - 2 damage types crush and pierce, modal is -50% damage for -25 Fortitude for 10 seconds ​Tier Three base damage 11-16, Penetration 9 Estoc - modal is penetration (+2) at cost of deflection (-20) The disparities that jump out are: Quarterstaffs get an extra bonus of accuracy in addition to gaining reach Estocs do not get any inherent bonus or they are overly penalized in damage reduction I'd suggest dropping the extra accuracy from the Quarterstaff or moving it down to Tier Two for reduced damage. I'd suggest moving the Estoc up to Tier Two for damage as +2 penetration is its 'thing' and it pays for the other +2 penetration with reduced damage just like the Morningstar and Polax do.

Berserker + Shattered Pillar (or any Monk) can also disable the Confusion with Clarity of Agony for a single wound.

@Lampost in Winter - Role play is important but in this discussion I'd like to keep it o a purely mechanical level. "For roleplay" can justify anything. I can use "for roleplay" to ask for 'God-mode Gandalf' and break any semblance of game balance, and yes balance on a single player game matters. @ Katarack - Please tell me why you want additional passives on your character? By definition passives do not actively increase fun actions on your part and only enhance your characters stats or 'power'.

That's just a load of bitter crap. If you are on story mode it doesn't matter while on PotD being efficient in your choices and character design are key along with understanding the game mechanics. Right now a non-Fighter or Barbarian gets no penalty from using any weapon they are not proficient in. Total freedom. When you then pick a proficiency you get a modal that adds fluff and is situationally useful or just a cool option. Its a win-win. Fighters and Barbarians get restricted in that they get extra bonuses from sticking with proficient weapons but that is fine as they get enough picks to cover many weapons. Why do you want to get the passives on your characters? For more power. Anything else is just BS. You don't want 'weapon and shield style' on your Shield Bearer Paladin for fluff reasons, you want it for the +6 deflection and the +14 reflex boost.

I strongly agree and advocate that the elemental passives should be added to the various spell casters. If a Wizard wants to take the flame boosting passive instead of a spell choice that'd be great. EDIT- Having power levels do more and giving single classes more empowers sounds like a good trade off for not taking a multi-class.

This is in reference to the planned addition of the passive abilities from Fighters, barbarians and Rogues to the general public and choose-able from the Weapon Proficiency list on level up. Counter arguments of "that's not how it was in PoE!!!" have no place in the discussion. That is a vastly different game based on vastly different mechanics. Role playing reasons also have no place here, this is about cold brutal efficiency. Current System ​Weapon proficiencies add some nice fluff. You can use any weapon without penalty so these really become just a fluff type decision or the choice of a modal type to overcome a problem such as penetration. For most classes that's all there is to it. Exceptions are Fighters and Barbarians as they get bonuses from using proficient weapons such that you would not use non-proficient weapons ever. This limits and focuses these two martial classes but there are enough picks available that it works out well. You are masters of particular specific weapons. All the current classes do fine without access to the weapon styles and weapon focus. Everyone can use a shield, they just don't get the little extra deflection and Reflex boost that Fighters get. Everyone can dual wield and get -50% attack speed for free, Fighters can get a little better with an additional -20% for an ability pick. The defensive buffs such as Bull's Will are placed in various classes that are deemed to have them. Fighters in general by design are passive powerhouses, they get lots of passives and do well with minimal interaction from the player. Selecting a Fighter as a multi-class gives access to these at the cost of not choosing something else. TANSTAFL ​Option #1 - Adding these passives to every characters ability sheet ​The downside is that fitting all of these choices on screen will be a UI issue, not sure if insurmountable. The upside is that the cost to everyone is the same and weapon proficiencies stay as fluff (which is good). Unintended Consequences - Everyone will autopick Weapon Focus for the +6 accuracy. Even a Wizard spends a lot of time auto attacking and +6 accuracy makes a huge difference. This makes it not a choice. Now all enemies (and you if enemies can take it) are now easier to hit, PotD just became easier and if the game is re-balanced to add 6 defense to all enemies then anyone not taking this will be really hurt. Another unintended consequence is that now everyone will be as constrained by their weapon choices as Fighters and Barbarians were. You'd best have proficiency in the weapons you use as +6 is a huge boost to lose out on rather than the current cost of merely missing out on a modal. The defensive buffs are nice but won't be an auto pick. Fighters suffer as they main thing they bring to the multi-class is access to these passives, and Disciplined Barrage and the passive stances. So far anyway the Fighter actives are pretty poor and the level up choices can be better spent on the other class. Basically everyone gets a free third multi-class called 'Fighter-Lite' ​The proposed new system with passive available as weapon proficiency picks ​You get the same unintended consequences from the above option 1 but even worse. At creation you had best know what weapon you will want to use as you'll probably only get to use one. The reason for that is the second choice at creation will be Weapon Focus, if that's not available then you can get another weapon or a shield so choose wisely. At the first opportunity, level four, you will take Weapon Focus. Anything else is just stupid. At level seven you'll grab the weapon style appropriate to your character if melee or else grab one of the defensive boosts like Bull's Will. These are the most efficient choices by far and become a non choice due to that reason. At level ten you will grab one of the defensive boosts not taken. At level thirteen you will take another defensive boost. At level sixteen you can grab quick pockets or the last defensive boost At level nineteen if you skipped the weapon style previously you now have a free pick to grab another weapon. If you went with a weapon style you probably will value quick pockets more. This above is what ever efficient leveling guide will have as the path to take. Basically everyone just signed up to be devoted but without the benefits If your end game weapon is not a Soul Bound you'd best pick that at creation. Power creep now has all characters having +6 accuracy with a weapon, +10 boost to Will, Fortitude and Reflex, and any shield user will have an additional +6 deflection and a minimum of +14 Reflex. The game either gets a lot easier or the game gets rebalanced such that the enemies get stronger and not taking this optimal path will severely gimp you. All at the cost of fluff and freedom that the current system has. Fighters in this new system get screwed even worse. If you choose the passives you want from your ability pool you end up as a poor shade of everyone else. You get a few additional weapon types while everyone else gets their own fancy abilities, talk about a bad trade. You'd best be multi-classed with something you like as you'll be spending most of your picks there. Pure Fighters will just be gimps who effectively have less ability picks since everyone will have your passives but you'll be stuck spending ability picks on them instead of weapon proficiency slots. Pure monks run into an issue as well since most of their tier one choices will now be available to all. It will be especially bitter pill when you are forced to pick a passive boost with an ability pick due to no other choice and then forced to take a weapon specialization you will not use if you are using fists instead of the passive boost that others will take since you already took it. Pro-tip avoid a Monk/Fighter as just about all of your early ability picks will be on passives that were really useful and unique but now are free to all at the cost of weapon proficiencies except for you, you'll be forced to spend your ability points. Paradoxically the current master of specialization into a limited pool of weapons will become the masters of multiple weapon systems while everyone else becomes pigeonholed into single or perhaps two weapon types. ​Conclusion ​I hope they reconsider or at least add some new choices to the classes that previously had these passives. The power creep and pigeon holing of all classes with respect to weapon choices will be real and crippling. To ruin all the freedom that is currently available so that some few vocal complainers can effectively get the benefits of multi-classing without the cost because they don't want to adjust to the new game system seems to be a bad decision.

You should make a post in the Bug section on this. I agree that they should stack or else not much use for certain classes.

Do you have a specific case in mind?

I think you need to have enemies make the decision on whether to disengage and take the pain based on the damage threat from the engager. A 3 Might Orlan Unbroken/Shieldbearer with a spear and a tower shield who has no offensive capabilities but has 8 engagements should not be able to keep 8 guys locked down. In this example the threat of damage from disengaging is minimal. Remake that same Orlan Unbroken/Shieldbearer but give him high Might and lots of damage boosts and accuracy and you have a dangerous melee combatant who can hurt you bad if you eat a disengagement attack. This guy should be able to hold more enemies. To overcome this there are lots of abilities that ignore engagement, there are leaps that bypass the frontline and Might affliction remove your ability to engage. Lots of ways to overcome.

Pretty much any multi-class where there is some synergy can be great. That makes for pretty much all of them Way too much needed to write to include all the different possible mixes. I could see myself never rolling a pure class.

The beta only goes up to level nine so multi-classing is going to be way more powerful than single classes. Single class power will come at gaining access to abilities faster and eventually getting stuff no multi can. Another benefit of multi classes are that you get two special power sources such as zeal and mortification instead of just one type but a few more uses.

I tried to do this with Swift Flurry + Berserker Frenzy. They suppress each other. With Swift Flurry alone I can crit and then get another attack but not chaining them together as I was not criting all the time. When your normal hit gets upgraded to a crit via Frenzy you don't get another attack. This might be due to the speed buffs cancelling each other out while the fighter's disciplined strikes works fine with swift flurry.

I believe it is a typo error not a speed of action error. ie it shows a +25% but it applies the correct -25%. The base time is 3 and 3x 1.22 ( 1 +0.5-0.25-0.03) = 3.66 seconds rounds to 3.7 so it checks.

@Dam In Deadfire Torment's Reach is a primary attack not full, as is Force of Anguish. They've changed from PoE so no need for dual wielding anymore, two handed or shield use still counts as a primary attack. In fact numbers wise a Great Sword probably makes for the biggest Torment's Reach now instead of Dual Sabers. Regarding Monks and weapons: they use them as good as most and when paired with wound fueled Torments or Force of Anguish they can hang with anyone. Fighters get a limited number of knockdowns while as long as you have 2 wounds (one with the upgrade) you can fire off proning force of anguish until the end of time. As I've found that Torments can generate wounds for a Shattered Pillar I'd assume it works for FoA. With enough damage to generate a wound per each FoA you could chain them forever.

Hold on, -50% dual wield ??? Is that not supposed to be 20% or so ? All dual wielding gets -50% action speed on all characters. Taking two weapon style adds another -20%

The synergy was looking pretty good for a Berserker taking the upgraded Clarity of Agony. Even normal Clarity of Agony clears the confusion effect fro Berserker rage for one wound. It also looks as if crits caused by Frenzy's +50% hit to crit does not activate the free attack from the upgraded Swift Flurry. So either that is another bug or best to take lightning strikes instead for the +50% lash. This guy is a monster!

No, they don't. What they get is the opportunity to pick a different proficiency, which they will not use. Arguing that fists scaling automatically is a free proficiency is akin to saying accuracy for power levels is a free proficiency, or spell pen for power levels is a free proficiency. Neither are. Further to the point, weapons can come with additional effects (crit multiplier, prone on crit, spell striking...), which fists do not. You're right of course. Let's remove all weapon modals, they're pretty minor, especially since people need to spend the point. On topic, spend what point, actually ? You're making it seems like proficiencies cost ability/talent points, giving Monks an edge in that it's an extra point they get to use elsewhere. That is factually incorrect I am afraid. First off Monks are not only fist users, everything they have works just as well as with weapons. Using weapons then gives you all the little things you say are missing. Secondly that unspent proficiency can be used to get shield proficiency or a ranged weapon for utility and alpha striking. Except for stunning Blows all the monk attacks are primary weapon not full attack so dual wielding adds nothing and shield use does not hamper, in fact the deflection boost from a shield will drastically improve Dance of Death. Hello Captain America No need to get snarky about removing all modals. They add some cool effects but are not deal breakers either way. The free point in proficiencies is from not having to take fists. I roll a monk and I can take a shield and a bow and still fight with fists. Or grab a sword, staff, whatever and get fists to use as well. If you make fists a proficiency pick the unintended consequence will be in certain subclasses such as Devoted, you will get huge penetration. A Devoted with Thunderous Blows gets base 5+3 (Devoted) + 4 (Thunderous) + Transcendent +4or5 for a total of 16 penetration. Even if they don't stack you'd have 12 or 13 pen with fists and either Devoted or Thunderous which also is currently achievable and does not require any proficiency. Again what are Monks missing besides some sort of modal that may or may not ever get used?

Lack of physical space might very well be the biggest issue, yes. So how do we solve this? Increase the range of engagement for Unbroken/Shieldbearers? That would solve the issue of not just being unable to hold all those engagements, but also enemies just walking around the fighter with ease. Any downsides to that, besides it looking silly? Side note, I'm curious what your reason for being so vehemently against taunts is? If everything was exactly the same, but they just threw taunts on top of it, would that be acceptable? Please elaborate if not. That would solve nothing, you're creating a pigeonhole where your tank needs to be a spear-wielding unbroken/shieldbearer, you're not solving the underlying issue. Maybe the actual problem is that you guys work under the assumption that your one, main tank should, for some reason or another, be able to hold off 6-8 enemies at the same time ? Your conundrum is the following : - you have E enemies to deal with - you have T tanks - you have S support, cc or debuff characters - you have N nuke, high dps (burst, or sustained, or area) damage dealers How you deal with your E enemies depends on how many tanks you have, how many supports, how many damage dealers. Got only the one tank and the rest are 3 supports + 1 nuke ? Good, buy enough time with your tank that your supports can disable enemies, kill them off with your nuker. By the time your chain CC wears off, you should be down to a more manageable enemy force. Got 2 tanks, 1 support and 3 nukes ? Good, engage as many enemies as possible with your tanks (buff them with your support, or cc some more enemies), and rush the high profile, high threat enemies with your nukes. It all comes down to party composition, you're either purchasing enough time to thin the enemy ranks through engagement (tanks) or CC/debuffs (supports), or opting to inflict as much damage as possible from the start and deal with the remaining pieces after acquiring a numerical advantage. You wish for more tanking, you need yourself a second tanky-ish character, be it a paladin, a monk, a chanter or whatever else you come up with. Can't have a super tank that aggroes 20 enemies by himself. Not looking for a super tank, just trying to see what the practical limit on number of engagements is. It looks to be like 4 so anything beyond that is wasted. That can be reached just by activating Defender stance, no special weapons or additional powers are needed. Unbroken still adds value in that a +10 penetration attack is huge when applied to a disengagement attack that also gets +100% damage and will prone with an upgrade. You just don't need to use a spear and its modal to get there. The theory was more along the lines of a phalanx type team where the high engagement guys are in the front row while guys with reach weapons would hit as well preferably with Barbarian Carnage for extra fun. If the enemy stayed on the front ranks they get killed, if they try to get to the rest of the team they disengage and get killed faster. In PoE my PotD teams were pretty much always durable melee teams without any casters at all. If everyone is a durable damage dealer there are no soft targets that need protecting.