Tigranes

I thought this forum had flood control.

It's not a good sign when every other post on the thread is by Hades. Thankfully, the fact that they're not very long has temporarily averted a worldwide meltdown. I suppose that with many of us, 'we shall see' when NWN2 is released, and as with StarForce, if there's a problem the uproar will reveal at least the name of the new protection and why and how it does what it does. Of course, as with StarForce, it would be a long time before companies rescind their decisions, but eh.

Are you STILL going on about this? I told you I finished Jade Empire in one sitting, in one day. It was around 12 hours roughly, on Normal. No walkthroughs, no prior experience. I know that I missed quite a few side-quests (the game didn't engage me enough to go through all of them), but I hardly ever needed to restart due to the easy battle (should have started on Hard straight away), easy puzzles, and straightforward, generic dialogue that you just read, instead of read, and think about. There are rarely points in JE where you stop to think, or you stop to wonder, or to feel dilemma; it just plods you through until the ending that you foresee from the very first conversation with the 'master'. If I tried to do everything I could see 5 more hours being added there, due to running around; so sure, under 20. I took around 30 for FO2 on my first try I believe, but I was stuck on some areas and tried to clear the military base WAY too early. Still, I took +60 hours on Oblivion to finish nearly everything and I take even longer on BG2, so..

Well, I classify KOTOR as a hardcore CRPG. I don't want to, but I've learned to broaden the definition or risk sleepless nights over the Godless world we live in. :roll: Anyway, the video we were linked to in page 4 is a classic example. The paraphrasing shows "Threats might." as a paraphrasing: signifying that the main character will proceed to threaten the alien bartender in some way, and he is not in the mood for jolly talking. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that we are prepared to see him pull a gun out, and mention that 'a billion lives are at stake'. One, I would not have picked such a rash option but rather a more subtle, worded threat, and Two, what if I didn't give a jack about a billion lives? Sure, this kind of problem is also present with dialogue options, but at least I know what I'm getting into. Let me clarify; these kind of things, of course, won't make or break the game. But this is certainly a needless change that has no advantages and strips away some of the beauty in RPGs.

alan: I think our ultimate point of difference is that you believe most people choose dialogue options based on intent and not on specific words; I would agree that most people do, but I would also argue that catering to this laziness strips away something that can sometimes really be quite beautiful. I surely don't understand how you can say a paraphrasing and the original of something can be, for all intensive purposes, equivalent. No matter how well you paraphrase something, the subtleties of the words are lost; and especially style / "coolness factor" if you will. Both because you can't see them until you've chosen (and style/etc will never be paraphrased well, now, would it?), and because I believe this system is a part of Mass Effect's direction towards simplified, straightforward dialogue. Of course, Mass Effect is not Bioware's straight-course RPG offering. But then, neither was JE.

Yeah, then we can click 1 until the conversation is over.

What is the name of this copy protection, if it has one? Is Atari the only big company that uses them?

Oh. My verbosity has entirely substituted for clarity, it seems. Let's see.. Difference between paraphrasing and full-blown dialogue options: in one, you make a choice of generalised intent. In the other, you make a choice of both generalised intent and specific connotations that can only be delivered through the wording, the tone, the individual words. These are important not only in that they are eventually delivered (which paraphrasing does), but in that they are fully visible BEFORE we make a dialogue choice. Why? Because then our choices can be that much more specific. It's like saying there's a choice between a green apple and a red banana (yeah, sue me), and ME says "Apple or Banana", IE engine says "Green Apple or Red Banana". Perhaps, ultimately, whether it's green or red doesn't really matter; it certainly doesn't to the game mechanics and the NPC responses. I'm saying it is in the act of player choice itself, not what comes after, that we should be given a full understanding of available options, because then we can make a choice that we identify with / desire to the most. Again, nobody can tell us what's so good about paraphrasing - especially since 1/ you see the text eventually, 2/ nobody wants 'surprise' in that context, that's a stupid excuse and 3/ it really won't cut down on the publisher's text-limit thingie. We gain nothing; and what we lose is the fullness of choice, thus roleplay. I mean, come on. Option 1 - I'll kill you. Option 2 - It's not honourable to kill you. Option 3 - Give me money and you can live. Compared to: Option 1 - Prepare to die, evildoer! Option 2 - While you deserve death, there has been enough killing this day. Option 3 - There are many paths to survival in this world. Money is one of them. Can you say there are ANY reasons to prefer the former, or say that they are the same? You will also notice that if choosing from the first row led to the second row (as ME does), then there may be players scratching their heads; maybe they selected "Kill" because they were sadistic, not because of a sense of justice. Either these types of stupid 'surprises' will abound, OR dialogues will become straightforward and simplified, thus sacrificing textual excellence.

Sorry, I meant the wealth of interpretion BEFORE you pick. I think it's clear why I think that's important? I would certainly hope so, but wouldn't the publishers count the 'hidden' words too? Ultimately they too are revealed to the player. I think we do understand each other by now, though. I hope. Certainly I would be happy to change my mind upon release of more information (or the game itself), but an informed estimate at this stage does not make me hopeful, especially since they are so busy trumping up this new system but can't cite a single real advantage except that it's 'easier'.

Well, take a look at a book. Do all people interpret it the same? No. At high school they try to teach you what the 'author intended', but a lot of what they teach you really isn't what the author intended, just what others thought of his work. There are always great diverging theories on just what the author intended - meaning that nowadays, in true postmodernist sense, it is accepted that a single text, or a single scene, or a single line of dialogue can have different meanings for different people, and rather than misinterprtion it is a wealth of interpretion. I believe this happens with video games too; in a very general sense, for example, how people perceive a character and whether they empathise with them; in a more specific level, what a certain event means to the plot, or what a certain line means in the context. I believe in the sense of dialogue such subtleties can be lost with the paraphrase technique; if we compare this to the visual, where we once used to describe the room with words, we now do so with graphics. But imagine the graphics engine was still back in the 8-bit engine or worse; there will be a great wealth of detail lost in that transition because of the incompleteness of the new technique. Still, the very transition to the visual medium itself was a great benefit. The same cannot be said for this. I do agree with you here, in that dialogue options are a very inadequate way of 'covering your bases'. I am not disputing that, as I think you know. I am merely saying that the paraphrase wheel is a backward step. besides, the existence of options means that you can sometimes be made aware of options you did not even think of - or ways to say it that you ddid not think of. In good CRPGs I take great pleasure in reading well-written dialogue choices, and sometimes spend 10 minutes sitting there, loathe to choose one over the other. It is not an ideal experience, but a good one, and I believe nothing is gained by paraphrasing! Fahrenheit is the same as Indigo Prophecy, I believe? I must admit I had forgotten that example, but that game has a much more controlled and selective delivery, and probably a good deal less dialogue due to the length. (I remember it being a short game; am I right?) Still, if the quality of the dialogue is up to Fahreinheit's standard, I should be much appeased. Still, the question I must put to you is this; what is the ADVANTAGE of the paraphrase wheel OVER the dialogue options? ME interview's mentions of utilising visuals more (e.g. expressions/gestures) could be done with dialogue options anyway, so that is a completely separate matter, isn't it? Why change to a system when there is no new advantage, only possible disadvantages? edit: I suppose I am a minority, but I knew that already, right?

Oh, no, alan. I don't mean 'misinterpreting'. There is no problem there. I mean interpreting it differently. When my friend comes up to me and says "3pm" and I think he means "3pm but fashionably late" then that is misinterpretion. In the literary field, however, the connotations of the author cannot be and need not be interpreted according to the 'canon' cognitive processes; these 'misinterpretions' rather make the text that much more rich, everyone's different perspectives able to directly influence the nature of the situation and of the dialogue options. As for a total misinterpretion that detracts from the experience - I can't say that would happen often with quality texts. I think above all, what you lose when you pick a paraphrase as opposed to picking an exact line, is just like picking any small gun instead of a specific one, or picking a book from its synopsis instead of reading the whole thing. It saves you a few seconds each time, if you're really slow at reading, I guess (hell, judging on JE, Mass Effect responses wouldn't be that long to begin with.), but what is lost in that paraphrasing, while it is revealed to us later, will never come into account when we make our CHOICES in dialogue - not the best, but one of the greatest extents to which we can roleplay in video games. I can feel that I am really the character - or even if I don't, I can face dilemma about what to say and how to say it. A lot of that can be taken away quite brutally with ME's paraphrase system. And I can't think that their gesture/expression system will be detailed enough to compensate, say, by having gestures like 'grab his hand in supplication' or 'pat his head and infuriate him' and have proper reactions past '+2 if good, +2 if evil" and "-2 reaction".

I remember killing the final boss in less than a minute with some random fighting, then one hit with the Jade Golem. Of course, I finished the thing in one day and gave it back to the DVD store, so.

But dude, ARROWS STICK OUT OF PEOPLE.

alan, that's like saying choosing "Candy" or "Chocolate" is the same as choosing "Apple-flavoured Candy" or "Chocolate-flavoured Chocolate". Now, you may say: "it doesn't matter whether you pick "Evil" or you pick "Haha I kill you now", the outcome within the game is the same and the code responds the same way". This is true, but it is logically too response-centric. There is a choice and difference in the PLAYER choosing "I kill you now" over "Evil"; it need not be responded to by the mechanisms of the gameworld for it to be a worthwhile choice. Otherwise it would be like saying it doesn't matter how you kill this critter, upon death the scripts that fire are exactly the same; so why have the choice between killing him with a sword or a bow? Answer is that the killing itself gives the player a different choice and experience, even if upon the act of killing the response is the same. I often find myself in great dilemma when picking some dialogue choices in RPGs, because sometimes I really can't bring myself to pick an option even if I 'should' (to get the outcome I want). Will we have the same level of dilemma and empathy and involvement with paraphrased options? No, rather we would have "Hell no, that's not what I wanted to say". You must remember that human language is one that is not there to be deciphered, but to be interpreted. People can look at a dialogue option and interpret it different ways: I have often found optins that were clearly designed to be "good" or "evil", but did not agree that they were. I was clearly interpreting them in a different manner to the author of the text; we are not afforded this variety with paraphrased options. It is killing something beautiful that can only be achieved with the delicate touches of the written word, and not the crude pressing of buttons. mkreku: it is true that dialogue options are still grossly limited (e.g. 3-4 out of infinite number of answers) - but it is so, so much better than paraphase wheels. And even if it is not 'realistic', the offered responses themselves can be literary gems - how many of you have read one of the dialogue options in a CRPG and laughed at it, or found that it was great, or later quoted it for various purposes? They too can be memorable just like NPC quotes, and while they are limited for roleplaying purposes it is a step in the right direction. Mass Effect is NOT.

I enjoyed Oblivion for the first playthrough. It's like going back to those McDonalds playgrounds after 15 years and going "Oh wow, this is really cool". Then you come out after one go and never look back. Don't tell me none of you know what I'm talking about. Eh? Eh?

Yeah, how about they change all gun names to "small gun", "big gun", and "mystery gun"? Players will know roughly which gun they are equipping, but they may be surprised by the reality of the gun they chose. Thus, we will be able to have a more complex mood system. They should also fire randomly different projectiles on each shoot. I'd rather have NWN dialogue than this. More reasonably (and perhaps less archaic-like:) sure, delivery through visual means sounds nice, but I can guarantee that we are not yet up to the standard of delivering complex emotions, especially on alien faces/bodies, enough to displace, say, Torment descriptions. I'm not saying go back to Torment descriptions, but we will definitely lose way too much until technology goes up more. Furthermore, that approach has nothing to do with their stupid decision of 'masking' player responses - I mean, hello? "entertainment value" because you can be "surprised"? I guess any kind of surprise anywhere is good, in that case.

But then, when there are too many contradictions they become meaningless and invalid ammunition for the forum warz . Sort of like trying to kill 600 goblins with FoD.

So... is it crap?

So, 2016?

RTW runs relatively high-end for me, and I'm happy with M2TW if it looks any better than RTW, so.

That's magnificent, especially the expanded princess system. Also, this is from memory, but I was reading some CA comments about AI: -> In bridge battles, the AI will analyse his army and yours, especially in terms of what kind (ranged, etc) of troops you and he has, then decide whether to try and cross, and if he does, with whom and with how much of the army. -> Missile heavy army will delay melee contact as long as possible and milk 'em arrows. Vice versa. -> Cavalry flanking has been 'improved' Anyway, the guy that got those mobile shots at the convention said the game he played was 90% functional and completed, so the november date some shops produced seems pretty likely, actually.

I envisage that it will be like Oblivion for me - a decent game that looks pretty good, fun with maybe some special moments - but probably only good for one or two playthroughs. I'm pretty sure most people here will feel the combat is pretty dull, but I don't mind that kind of combat every once in a while either, even though their much-vaunted swordplay has ended up being quite silly over all the redesigns. Also, this has bloom too. WORLD DOMINATION TIME

Chivalry shares spot with Dread? Where? *blink* In the last screenie I linked to, there's a princess button at the bottom. The first button I assume directs you to the city he is in; the third one, who knows. Does the second (princess) one just send a diplomat around to arrange for his marriage? Does it open up a window showing possible candidates and likelihood of success? Does it show the profile of an already married wife? Will princesses finally get their own stats? MYSTARY.