Baladas

+++ Agrees. They are still beta. At least be honest and admit it I say.

Just for clarification: we'd never ask anybody to not talk about another game. Maybe you meant the OP in this thread? Sorry, I could have misunderstood. I'm not perfect and am occasionally wrong. Just for clarification: we'd never ask anybody to not talk about another game. Maybe you meant the OP in this thread? Sorry, I could have misunderstood. I'm not perfect and am occasionally wrong. It was me that requested that in my OP so as to state the nature of the poll and discussion being in regards to POE as its own entity in its own right. My intention has been misunderstood and misrepresented by a particular moderator who interpreted it in his own way through his own understanding. Other comparisons will be made in the discussion, that is obvious, my request was to focus on POE rather than make the usual comparisons, which can become justifications for it being "the norm to release a buggy game." Many games released are relatively bug free at launch, as in they do not have 1000's of bugs, these are the games I consider as "Finished titles" See these articles for a further understanding of my viewpoint: Quote: "Players won't continue to put up with paying to be game testers, being asked by publishers to help track down issues and load and reload patches for titles they paid to play. But flip that idea, and I'm sure plenty of gamers will beg to get a first look at a game for free, in exchange for their diligent testing and reporting." From here: http://www.polygon.com/2014/11/24/7277363/broken-video-games-are-the-new-norm-what-developers-need-to-do-to-fix Other links: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=976550 http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/25huew/eli5_how_can_nintendo_release_relatively_bugfree/ http://conversation.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/video-game-publishers-bugs-broken-drm-piracy/

Its a poll, that's what a poll is for, right? How does making a poll negate the point of a discussion thread? Oh, okay, so you're not actually looking for discussion, you just want to moan and complain. Nope, not moan and complain. Its called expressing a truth, oh and sense of humor... Heard of that? OK so it is dry humor so it is not everyone's cup of tea I know... I do find it interesting though, that you decided to make a personal attack towards me. I find it even more interesing that people like the fact that you made a personal attack.... The game industry, as it stands, uses customers as beta testers after getting their money. Sometimes they don't even patch the games fully and drop support leaving the "community" to fix their game for them. I know Obsidian have committed to supporting this game after release and that is applaudable. I know they have worked hard to patch the game so and that is also applaudable. It does not mean that I have to agree with the current business modal. If games were to: a) Stay longer in production. And to avoid "when is the game coming out!" demands don't announce it until close to its completion. b) Provide the full game for extended beta testing to catch at least the major bugs before releasing an incomplete game. c) Provide Early Access. Yes this has pros and cons, as mentioned before. Just because releasing unfinished game is a con of Early access, it does not justify releasing an unfinished game marketed as a finished one for the sake of avoiding Early Access. It would be a better business model in my opinion. I simply don't believe in releasing buggy games for the consumer to get involved in fixing and POE is admitted to have had 1000's of bugs at release. For me, I cannot play it in its current state as of patch 1.05 (1.06 pending) due to the combat mechanics not working correctly and some still reported bugs in the main plot line. I also do not want to play a game where enemy abilities bug party member abilities permanently. I do not want to be in a fight where enemy AOE heals my party members in a game that is heavily filled with combat that has enemy AOE effects. Or a game where the enemy may bug your party members abilities, thus breaking the combat again. Other bugs such as missing endurance, faulty Paladin auras, various stacking abilities, sound glitches, side quests broken, and so on, are a minor annoyance and I can deal with. But not broken combat mechanics in a game full of combat. It is great they are patching, and patching fast, but as a customer I have still paid for a product that I personally am unable to use after owning it for 2 months. I know I am not the only person who is not playing the game in its current state due to bugs. I have read many other posts over the net with people expressing the same thing. That is why I spend my time collecting a bug thread for the community: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79258-common-recurring-bug-list-patch-105/

The devs gave me a private message asking me to make a thread away from the bug thread, so I did. They seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to have released the game in the state that it is in. I disagree, for some reason that I cannot fathom, most people don't. I disagree that any product should be release on the public for them to spend their money on without sufficient testing first. We are so willing to accept the unfinished state of a game at release. Thus more and more companies are getting away with releasing their games unfinished and using their customer base as beta..... erm i mean "community" testers. But as the poll seems to show, we don't mind being beta, erm..... I mean bug testers for the game developers who get paid for their jobs. Playing games is not about playing them anymore it seems, its about finding bugs and reporting them as we play..... Hmmm.... where are our salaries?

Problem with that is, Early Access means buying the game, right? And Early Access is a Steam feature. So basically you lock out any and all backers who may have wanted to use GOG or another service. That does not seem efficient at all. At least the backers, and the other customers, would have been more likely to have a finished game on release.

Its a poll, that's what a poll is for, right?

POLL: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79882-should-poes-final-release-have-been-called-ealry-access/

Added the option: "Should have been longer in development."

Don't care would have been the right option for me as well if it existed when I voted. You can delete votes and re-vote I thought that was an interesting quote. I suppose there is a question of perception - I know sometimes when I see Early Access, I'm thinking "this game isn't finished, why would I want to try it". Which wouldn't be a notion in a regular release being patched. Mind you back in the days of BG/IWD/PST release and patch was normal - perhaps I just haven't gotten into the swing of the new digital distribution days... Exactly my point! I did not want to "try out" this game and compile and read endless bug reports on it only to wait for it to be finished after I had already paid for it. I wanted to buy this game and play it in a state that was enjoyable to play. For me, considering the amount of unaddressed bugs, it is not enjoyable to play as I will not experience the game the devs themselves intended me to experience. This would not have happened if it was honestly labeled as "Early Access" I would have thought "this game isn't finished, why would I want to try it" and waited until it was released in a better state. As it is they have my money and I have not used their product. More than that I have spent time on their product trying to compile bug reports in the hope that I will one day be actually be able to play the game the devs intended to release in the first place. Just because other studios do this it does not make it excusable. It is something we as customers have right to be upset about and something that needs to change in the industry. Leave the games in development longer or at least give us people who want to play, not bug test, a choice of avoiding the purchase by labeling it honestly as "Early Access".

If that was your question, then answer is clearly no. The number of bugs is comparable to previous games of the same kind. Do you remember how many bugs the Baldur's Gate series had even after all of the official patches? PoE had maybe 3 rare (but not negligibly so) showstopper bugs which were quickly fixed in about a week after release (again, comparable with most games of this genre). The other bugs are minor nuisances -- they have practically no impact on the overall game. I disagree. Enemy AOE buffs affecting party affects the game combat, which is a huge part of the game. Bugged Noonfrost quest affects character abilities. Other bugged quests reported by other players prevent progress. Endurance on characters bugged affects the game The perma health and stat increase affected the game. Many side quests bugged. Balance changes are certainly evolutions and not corrections as are extra functions. Sneak mechanics changed. And so on..... Remember I said this poll was not about comparing to other games. It is about POE in its own right. Other games are not a justification for 1000's of bugs (yes 1000's! Quoting the devs here,, at least they are honest.) on release.

OK I adjusted the poll name and question to reflect what I actually wanted to express. Any re-votes based on this can be appropriately considered.

Don't care would have been the right option for me as well if it existed when I voted. + Delete and re-vote.

In the post above by Amentep BAdler said that one of early accesses cons is "releasing the game in an unfinished state to the general public" But they did that anyway and marketed it as a finished product. So.... Clearly we got an early access game whether it was called that or not.

Amentep "I voted no, albeit I actually don't care one way or the other but there wasn't an option to choose that." Don't care added.

Hmm. perhaps my point is not clear. The question is not "whether POE should have actually been EA" but whether the game that was actually released warranted the title "Early Access" as it was not a completed product. I.E was the game we got worthy of the title "Completed product" or would it have been more fitting to have called it "Early Access" in the state it was released, since it seemed to have needed "one more year of development" (Gairnulf) before some people can actually play the game.

Please vote YES above if you agree its could have been early access then since you are waiting for it to become playable.

Don't care would have been the right option for me as well if it existed when I voted. Should the POE that was released have been more appropriately considered Early Access, rather than marketed as a finished product, based on these comments: "Since the release of the game with have fixed around 1000 bugs with the help of the community." Why were 1000's of bugs in a game that was released as a finished product? "There are many of you, with many different playstyles. It isn't something that we can easily replicate on our side so we will gladly take any help that the community is willing to give us." So why not early access? The description of Early Access suits the released version of Pillars of Eternity perfectly, especially version 1.01: "Early access, alpha funding, or paid-alpha is a funding model in the video game industry by which consumers can pay for a game in the early stages of development and obtain access to playable but unfinished versions of the game, while the developer is able to use those funds to continue work on the game." "This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development." "These are games that evolve as you play them, as you give feedback, and as the developers update and add content." Playable but unfinished version of the game: Check (Version 1.01 was not even playable due to some bugs.) Pillars of Eternity is not complete: Check Pillars of Eternity may or may not change further: Check Pillars of Eternity is Evolving as we play: Check Pillars of Eternity developers are getting feedback from the players and updating and adding content: Check. If you (i.e the customer) are not exited to play this game in its current state: Check (for many customers) then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development. (POE is developing further, with UI tweaks, bug fixes, additional features, balances and so on, except this was not mentioned as a disclaimer for POE, it was marketed as a completed product, which it is not.) So next time, please release the game as early access and spare paying customers like me who do NOT want to get involved in the development of an unfinished product and who simply want to play the game. This poll is solely related to POE, please do not make comparisons to "other" buggy released games to justify the label "Finished product." Simply weigh up the state of completion of POE on its release and consider the amount of changes and fixes brought into the game based on both community feedback and developer input. Also consider whether the game is "Playable but not complete." and if it is subject to "Further development" or not. Thanks.

"Since the release of the game with have fixed around 1000 bugs with the help of the community." Why were 1000 of bugs in a game that was released as a finished product? "There are many of you, with many different playstyles. It isn't something that we can easily replicate on our side so we will gladly take any help that the community is willing to give us." So why not early access? The description of Early Access suits the released version of Pillars of Eternity perfectly, especially version 1.01: "Early access, alphafunding, or paid-alpha is a funding model in the video game industry by which consumers can pay for a game in the early stages of development and obtainaccess to playable but unfinished versions of the game, while the developer is able to use those funds to continue work on the game." "This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development." "These are games that evolve as you play them, as you give feedback, and as the developers update and add content." Playable but unfinished version of the game: Check Pillars of Eternity is not complete: Check Pillars of Eternity may or may not change further: Check Pillars of Eternity is Evolving as we play: Check Pillars of Eternity developers are getting feedback from the players and updating and adding content: Check. If you (i.e the customer) are not exited to play this game in its current state: Check (for many customers) then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development. (POE is developing further, with UI tweaks, bug fixes, additional features, balances and so on, except this was not mentioned as a disclaimer for POE, it was marketed as a completed product, which it is not.) So next time, please release the game as early access and spare paying customers like me who do NOT want to get involved in the development of an unfinished product and who simply want to play the game. Thanks.

"Since the release of the game with have fixed around 1000 bugs with the help of the community." Why were 1000 of bugs in a game that was released as a finished product? "There are many of you, with many different playstyles. It isn't something that we can easily replicate on our side so we will gladly take any help that the community is willing to give us." So why not early access? The description of Early Access suits the released version of Pillars of Eternity perfectly, especially version 1.01: "Early access, alphafunding, or paid-alpha is a funding model in the video game industry by which consumers can pay for a game in the early stages of development and obtainaccess to playable but unfinished versions of the game, while the developer is able to use those funds to continue work on the game." "This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development." "These are games that evolve as you play them, as you give feedback, and as the developers update and add content." Playable but unfinished version of the game: Check Pillars of Eternity is not complete: Check Pillars of Eternity may or may not change further: Check Pillars of Eternity is Evolving as we play: Check Pillars of Eternity developers are getting feedback from the players and updating and adding content: Check. If you (i.e the customer) are not exited to play this game in its current state: Check (for many customers) then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development. (POE is developing further, with UI tweaks, bug fixes, additional features, balances and so on, except this was not mentioned as a disclaimer for POE, it was marketed as a completed product, which it is not.) So next time, please release the game as early access and spare paying customers like me who do NOT want to get involved in the development of an unfinished product and who simply want to play the game. Thanks.

"Since the release of the game with have fixed around 1000 bugs with the help of the community." Why were 1000 of bugs in a game that was released as a finished product? "There are many of you, with many different playstyles. It isn't something that we can easily replicate on our side so we will gladly take any help that the community is willing to give us." So why not early access? The description of Early Access suits the released version of Pillars of Eternity perfectly, especially version 1.01: "Early access, alphafunding, or paid-alpha is a funding model in the video game industry by which consumers can pay for a game in the early stages of development and obtainaccess to playable but unfinished versions of the game, while the developer is able to use those funds to continue work on the game." "This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development." "These are games that evolve as you play them, as you give feedback, and as the developers update and add content." Playable but unfinished version of the game: Check Pillars of Eternity is not complete: Check Pillars of Eternity may or may not change further: Check Pillars of Eternity is Evolving as we play: Check Pillars of Eternity developers are getting feedback from the players and updating and adding content: Check. If you (i.e the customer) are not exited to play this game in its current state: Check (for many customers) then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development. (POE is developing further, with UI tweaks, bug fixes, additional features, balances and so on, except this was not mentioned as a disclaimer for POE, it was marketed as a completed product, which it is not.) So next time, please release the game as early access and spare paying customers like me who do NOT want to get involved in the development of an unfinished product and who simply want to play the game. Thanks.

OK.

Thanks, we are aware this has been in since the beginning of the release of the game. We are aware it is not fixed. We have not fixed it in two months of knowing about it. Oh and thanks for reporting all the other bugs and beta testing and bug tracking for us. We are aware of them, and they are also not fixed, even though we said many of them would be for this patch: cRichards: This is the status of some of the issues mentioned as far as I am aware: #2 Companion dialogue skipping - Probably an issue with the computer running a parallel server or virtual OS, addressed here #4 Permanent status effects - Fixed and retroactive #5 Paladins in Noonfrost disabling passives - Fixed and retroactive #6 Dual-wielding with unarmed and 1 weapon not working properly- Fixed #7 Retaliation on friendly spells - Fixed #12 Losing items when dismissing companions - Fixed, cannot be retroactive I can't say for certain the status of the others issues, as some of the forum posts linked to one issue are of different problems. Hope this helps! http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79258-common-recurring-bug-list-patch-105/ But thanks for buying the game, giving us your money and beta testing for us, even though we still have not fixed the issues you reported. Yeah, BIG thanks for all your hard work. cRichards: "Two-handed weapons are intended to cost twice the amount of ingredients to enchant, but very nice job discovering that the x2 ingredient requirement does not properly get reset when viewing the crafting menu. This issue has been reported to the team. Keep up the great work!" https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79288-105-v567-crafting-bug-ingredients/ Wait.... I thought a game was suposed to be play, not work...... Oh, I forgot, its Obsidian.... ............

Bump, not that it matters since this thread is ignored in the latest patch.......

How come NONE of these in this thread have been addressed? http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79258-common-recurring-bug-list-patch-105/ These were supposed to be fixed in this patch at least: cRichards Developers 241 posts This is the status of some of the issues mentioned as far as I am aware: #2 Companion dialogue skipping - Probably an issue with the computer running a parallel server or virtual OS, addressed here #4 Permanent status effects - Fixed and retroactive #5 Paladins in Noonfrost disabling passives - Fixed and retroactive #6 Dual-wielding with unarmed and 1 weapon not working properly- Fixed #7 Retaliation on friendly spells - Fixed #12 Losing items when dismissing companions - Fixed, cannot be retroactive Seriously, what is going on with this game and its treasure trove of game-play bugs? And the sound bug was established by users as NOT being related to anything on the post linked. And how on earth can this not be fixed yet? http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79382-issuebug-hiravias-stuck-at-half-endurance/ http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79445-bug-permanent-reduced-endurance-for-hiravias/?hl=endurance Good job customer beta testers, you are doing a nice unpaid job for obsidian. Me too with all my bug report compilations. If I was business savvy I would be asking for some kind of compensation for all this. :D Even the devs admit we ate doing their work: cRichards "Two-handed weapons are intended to cost twice the amount of ingredients to enchant, but very nice job discovering that the x2 ingredient requirement does not properly get reset when viewing the crafting menu. This issue has been reported to the team. Keep up the great work!" https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79288-105-v567-crafting-bug-ingredients/ So, keep it up guys, your great unpaid work for the devs!

Bump