Baladas

So nothing from here was actually fixed then? Since none of these are addressed in the patch notes. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79258-common-recurring-bug-list-patch-105/ So this statement was not true: This is the status of some of the issues mentioned as far as I am aware: #4 Permanent status effects - Fixed and retroactive #5 Paladins in Noonfrost disabling passives - Fixed and retroactive #6 Dual-wielding with unarmed and 1 weapon not working properly- Fixed #7 Retaliation on friendly spells - Fixed #12 Losing items when dismissing companions - Fixed, cannot be retroactive

So whats been fixed from this then? Nothing from here was added to 1.06 patch notes.

Thanks Badler. What about this one: Spells that target friendly NPCs now only affect targets which the caster is non-hostile towards and the target is non-hostile towards the caster.Is this related to this in any way? http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79331-105-v567-enemy-aoe-buffs-affecting-party-members/ http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79039-105-killing-them-with-love-series/ and is that fixed?

Why have these fixes been removed from the official fix list? Fixed a problem where it was impossible to sell items in a store if you were full on camping supplies. Spells that target friendly NPCs now only affect targets which the caster is non-hostile towards and the target is non-hostile towards the caster. Fixed issue where the Ability Bar sub menu could get locked into not disappearing if a hot key bar was ever shown. Retroactive fix for characters whose Stamina multiplier was broken in save games. And are any of the bugs in the common and recurring bug list fixed or not? Specifically: #2 Companion dialogue skipping - Probably an issue with the computer running a parallel server or virtual OS, addressed here #4 Permanent status effects - Fixed and retroactive #5 Paladins in Noonfrost disabling passives - Fixed and retroactive #6 Dual-wielding with unarmed and 1 weapon not working properly- Fixed #7 Retaliation on friendly spells - Fixed #12 Losing items when dismissing companions - Fixed, cannot be retroactive and the Endurance bug. Just wondering cus I am hearing how great this game is, it certainly seems so, but I would like to play it in its optimum state in order to find out for myself. If these are actually fixed could we have an official word and perhaps see them added to the fix list?

When I owned an Xbox and PS2 I also had a gaming PC. During that time I used to buy games on release and I very rarely experienced the amount of bugs that are present in games nowdays as practically standard. It simply was not this bad. Now it is bad and getting worse. This is the first game I have brought on release since the time of the Xbox and PS2. I normally wait. I have not had the experience of how bad games are on release simply because I have not brought them on release since the time of the PS2 and during that time games were generally more polished on release. So how games are released now cannot be compared to the times of PS2, about 7-10 years ago, at least in my experience. For that reason to say that it is "normal" for games to be released "buggy" is not correct since only 7-10 years ago, in general, the state of a game on release was not like the state of a game on release today. In the time of said Xbox and PS2 buggy games really stood out and were widely reported as such. Nowdays almost all games released with bugs on release are tolerated. They were not tolerated in this way only 7-10 years ago. Digital release has made Games programmers lazy and reliant upon a customer base to notice bugs for them. In my opinion there is not proper justification for this.

So they wanted to "push the digital release" which had "some issues" and they needed to get a "Final version ready" before shipping the physical release. OK. That fits my understanding that they released a beta test for consumers before the "Final version" was released. Maybe not your understanding, but it fits mine.

OK. So so far approximately 20% of POE customers consider that the game should either have been either: a) Released as early access. b) Released later to finish production. Since Obisdian themselves did not make a physical disk version of the game until version 1.04, which is the version that would have been released if we hypothetically did not have digital downloads, I believe that saying the 1.04 version was the "Finished" (or "Final") version of the game and 1.01 - 1.03 beta versions released for consumer testing, is a fair comment. Quote: "Outside of that, they also sent out a notification to the backers where they explained the need to get a final version ready before the physical release could be shipped. And that they were tipping in favor of delaying the physical release for a short time, while rolling out the digital release with some issues." So they themselves admitted that the digital version, (Version 1.01-1.03) had "some issues" and was not the "Final version". Therefore I think we need another category of games that get released with bugs and are sold to the consumer who then acts as a beta tester. So, not early access but something else. Then the "Final version" of the game is promoted as such, the actual final version.

I think you don't know what finished version means. According to Obsidian: http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/7/entry-184-patch-notes-106-in-progress/ "The product was deemed a finished product because Obsidian considered it a finished product. It is really as simple as that." I disagree. Simple as that. So you don't finish things when you decide that they good enough or you don't have anymore time or money to put in them. So for example in your standards people can't finish school if their results weren't perfect. Or maybe better your employer can argue that you haven't finished your work before you have given them perfect results and they don't need to pay you for hours that you have done for them. Finished product is product that product's maker thinks is good enough to be claimed to be finished, sometimes makers are forced to claim products that they aren't satisfied with as finished because of financial, material or time constraints. Simple as that. You can claim otherwise but that is just arguing against reality, which usually don't lead anything productive. Finished don't mean perfect or that there is no room to improve or that there isn't flaws in product. And it don't even mean that developer of product can return on later date to fix flaws in the product or even that developer can continue to improve the product outright after they release finished version of product and release new improved finished version in later date. In digital products customers that bought first version of the product often have benefit to get improved versions of product at least until certain point with out needing to pay extra for those improvements, if product is commercial. Aaanndd you managed to make it complicated. Again....

Because I read threads and reviews that initially expressed that the game was relatively bug free at launch. Then after playing for some time people discovered some bugs that were missed because the full game was never beta tested, only the beta backer which was only a sample of the game, then more bugs were found, then some more and so on..... So I compiled a bug list. Then I made this post. That is the story so far. What? Obsidian has a group of !A people. I have no idea how many but they tested the game and there were people assigned to play the game as their job. Badass, I am truly sorry you had such an awful time with the game. I mean that but you do come across as trying to prove that your experience is some how the major one when as far as I can tell it is a small minority one. That does happen and can actually benefit the devs when properly reported. I agree I am in the minority. I am just vocally defending my position because some people seek to establish that it is not based on any real stance or shared with anyone else. The 15% of people who think it should have been either in early access or longer in development have not said anything and that's fair enuff. Does not mean that I will not speak my part. And no, I do not think my experience is the major one. I just want to be clear where I stand and why is all.

I think you don't know what finished version means. According to Obsidian: http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/7/entry-184-patch-notes-106-in-progress/ "The product was deemed a finished product because Obsidian considered it a finished product. It is really as simple as that." I disagree. Simple as that.

This is ONE game I have brought on release in a LONG time, I usually dont, but this game triggered my Baldurs Gate nostalgia and I had high hopes becase over the net the actual release of the game was pipped as "relatively bug free". So I brought it at release, played it, experienced bugs, stopped playing it, read about more bugs, then decided to wait for a stable version. In the meantime I have created this post and poll, (which is not a product for sale by the way, despite some other peoples opinion) for discussion, originally meant for POE specifically, but has now become about more than that. Which is fine. Oh, and please, no personal attacks (like this "your behavior was foolish") on people. Not on me or on anyone. OK?

"Did you have a buggy experience with POE? That sucks. Complain. Should we always push devs to have less bugs? Yes, because bugs suck. Could you, based on your experience, have an opinion that POE is super buggy? Sure. That's about as far as it goes. You haven't produced any data or reasoning that could support the rest - so I'm not even sure what exactly your argument is." My argument is that the industry standard is wrong, in my opinion, and that POE being released as it is, is a symptom of the industry standard. The "Early Access" argument is that the game was released unfinished anyway, in my opinion, in a state that would have been better described as early access, in my opinion, as I have played early access games that are more polished than POE. Such as Airmech and Srtife. Complexity is an issue, sure, but 1000's of bugs? Also, why was the physical disk version released only at patch 1.04 if patch 1.01 was the finished version? Put 1.01 on the disk, its finished right? The physical disk is the game people would have got "back in the old days" pre digital download. Thus 1.04 is more comparable to a finished product than 1.01, which was a beta test at least, in my opinion. Therefore 1.01 should be considered "early access" or at least "beta" and 1.04, being the version on the physical disk, should be the "finished product", in my opinion.

Because I read threads and reviews that initially expressed that the game was relatively bug free at launch. Then after playing for some time people discovered some bugs that were missed because the full game was never beta tested, only the beta backer which was only a sample of the game, then more bugs were found, then some more and so on..... So I compiled a bug list. Then I made this post. That is the story so far.

What if I say that in my opinion it does, does that mean that your experiences were invalid then? Opinions that aren't backed by facts are just meaningless things that don't have any validity in them. In my opinion. Yeah in my opinion this is the fact. IMO. So much my opinion that it is just the opinion. No one else opinion ever invalidates anyone else's experiences. Otherwise we would all be forced to have the same experience of everything. "I like roller coasters, (opinion) they are fun and exiting and give me an adrenaline rush (experience)" "I hate roller coasters (opinion) they make me throw up and are not fun (experience)" One does not invalidate the other. "POE is buggy for me (experience) and the release we got should have been early access, or at least the game should have been properly beta tested before release. (opinion)" "POE is bug free for me (experience) and I think it was a finely polished production and did not need further development before release. (opinion)" Again, one does not invalidate the other.

"Anything is product that is produced by somebody, so forum posts, threads etc. are products. Did you know that your forum post are protected by copyrights because they are products in eyes of law, which is why forums EULA's must say that forum owner has right to do anything to your product that they want in their forums." Erm, but it is not for sale as a product. Show me any evidence that a Forum post is classified as a business product marketed for sale in the same way a video game or any other piece of marketed retail product. There are different kinds of product. This posts is not a marketed, retailed, product for sale and neither is is promoted as such in any way. You are not my customer and I am not selling this "product" to you. *Sheesh*

No, but my EXPERIENCE of POE and other peoples EXPERIENCE of POE in some peoples opinion make it classifiable as a "buggy, broken, unfinished game." that should have been marketed as "Early Access" People have had different EXPERIENCES but one EXPERIENCE does not invalidate another and vice versa. Sure, I am in the minority, but that does not invalidate my personal opinion based on mine, and others, experience.

Old guy claims things were better when he was younger, that never happens. Also debugging a complex RPG in 2015 is apparently roughly the same thing as debugging Pac-man. More!! More!! Flame him MORE!! How DARE he have an opinion!!

Lol. Thank you. Title edited. :D Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access? I am not charging you for this. You can, however, pay me if you so desire..... You wasted my time and time is money, as they say, so you charged me for this... But everybody is free to buy products that they feel are good enough them and if you buy products that weren't good enough then next time remember do more research before you decide to buy a product. How? I did not put a price tag on this post for you to send me any money for any product offered. There is no product here. I do not have any of your money and I certainly cannot use the time you spent here to make myself a profit. It is a poll on a forum that's all... Are your really comparing this forum poll to a £30 game promoted as a finished product? OK..... It is a product and it was buggy and waste of time, even though I didn't need to pay extra over time I used to read your post, it still was buggy product like one you complained PoE to be, and so if you ask one product be called early access until it is bug free then I think you should demand that other products should follow that standard including your forum polls (especially those if you are the one that demand to get bug free products). No, do you not understand the defenition of a "product" that is "sold"? Here, let me help: Product: (1) an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale. OK my thread is not that kind of product. I am certainly not marketing, refining or selling this thread. Especially not selling. That would be illegal in fact. Product: (2) a thing or person that is the result of an action or process. OK arguably this could fall into that category of "Product" but that is not something which is sold by its definition. Hmm.... Lets check somewhere else: "In marketing, a product is anything that can be offered to a market that might satisfy a want or need.[1] In retailing, products are called merchandise. In manufacturing, products are bought as raw materials and sold as finished goods. Commodities are usually raw materials such as metals and agricultural products, but a commodity can also be anything widely available in the open market. In project management, products are the formal definition of the project deliverables that make up or contribute to delivering the objectives of the project. In insurance, the policies are considered products offered for sale by the insurance company that created the contract." OK, well I am not satisfying a market, I am not offering merchandise, I am not providing goods or commodities, selling insurance and I do not have anything to do with project management. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_(business) Lets see, anything else? Product: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/definition/product A product is the item offered for sale. A product can be a service or an item. It can be physical or in virtual or cyber form. "Definition: A product is the item offered for sale. A product can be a service or an item. It can be physical or in virtual or cyber form. Every product is made at a cost and each is sold at a price. The price that can be charged depends on the market, the quality, the marketing and the segment that is targeted. Each product has a useful life after which it needs replacement, and a life cycle after which it has to be re-invented. In FMCG parlance, a brand can be revamped, re-launched or extended to make it more relevant to the segment and times, often keeping the product almost the same. " Errmm, nope, my forum thread is still not a product. If you do want to market it, however, and make a profit from it for me, you are more than welcome to. But I wont pay you for doing any O&A on my product, you will have to pay me for the product and help me to fix it so I can then make even more profit, none of which you will ever see. Wow! What an AWESOME business model!!!!! Why has not one ever thought of that before??? Oh... Wait.... They have, its the modern video game industry.

Hey here is another "opinion" This one is a Fifty year old gamer: Quote: "Having lived for just shy of a quarter of a century, I can’t say I am old myself. But at least I am old enough to remember the days when games worked like everything else; when you fork out money, it is for something that works the way it should. In fact, anyone who is reading this now is probably old enough to remember those good old days where games were bug free on launch day, or if there were any, they were so obscure and difficult to reproduce that finding them actually became another objective after the actual game was completed." http://www.hardwarezone.com.my/blog-game-development-releasing-unfinished-unpolished-and-buggy-games-new-trend Quick.... flame him and ask him for "evidence" of his claim that in the good old days "games were bug free on launch day, or if there were any, they were so obscure and difficult to reproduce that finding them actually became another objective after the actual game was completed."

Yes it is, but it is still an opinion. And it is one I, and other people, agree with. Some people on this thread are trying to make out like my opinion is totally rouge, when clearly it is not. You can have an opinion on whether my opinion is valid according to others opinion and my opinion of that opinion is as valid as anyone else's opinion on yours, mine or anyone else opinion. However, that is only my opinion. Is it clear yet that this is an opinion?

Lol. Thank you. Title edited. :D Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access? I am not charging you for this. You can, however, pay me if you so desire..... You wasted my time and time is money, as they say, so you charged me for this... But everybody is free to buy products that they feel are good enough them and if you buy products that weren't good enough then next time remember do more research before you decide to buy a product. How? I did not put a price tag on this post for you to send me any money for any product offered. There is no product here. I do not have any of your money and I certainly cannot use the time you spent here to make myself a profit. It is a poll on a forum that's all... Are your really comparing this forum poll to a £30 game promoted as a finished product? OK.....

You basically demanded that people avoid using an extremely common and sensible standard for judging whether a game is so buggy it does not deserve to be called a final release. You also presume - mistakenly, in my opinion - that any reference to other games is an invalid 'excuse'. I dispute your premise because I believe it is biased and unrealistic. If you really want to have a discussion about this, then you can't prevent that kind of disputation. I'd be more than willing to respect and consider your views if you are willing to discuss on that level. Not to mention you break your own rule when it is convenient for you, by commenting that many games released are relatively bug free at launch - which is hypocritical. It is furthermore unsubstantiated. In order for your position to be persuasive, I'd need to see some argument that (1) CRPGs of this kind - scope, budget, resources, etc. accounted for - are capable of being "finished" by your definition, whatever that is; (2) that such levels of "finish" are actually the norm for the industry and can be reasonably expected; (3) that POE's bugginess, under whatever calculation you use and specify, is again, off the charts. Sans all of that, what you are doing now amounts to a complete elimination of all real world factors and perspectives. People demand that trains run on time. But nobody demands that your plane lands exactly in the promised minute. People demand that a book they buy always has all the pages, but they don't demand that it has zero typos. I am happy you have your opinion. It is not one I agree with and you are over analyzing my words and demanding unreasonable evidence to back up an opinion, an opinion shared by other people (see my links) that I do not feel I have to justify by "evidence." I am not alone in my thinking and neither are you. I might make this my new signature for my posts. http://www.tomsguide...news-19952.html "No one likes to see something he or she hates in the mirror. But the cold, hard truth of the matter is that we, as gamers, have created an environment in which releasing a bug-free, big-budget game in a timely manner is almost impossible."

Lol. Thank you. Title edited. :D Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access? I am not charging you for this. You can, however, pay me if you so desire.....

This article might be trying to speak for all players, but it clearly doesn't. The critical and financial success of Bethesda's games clearly shows that the market and the critical community is perfectly fine with the release and patch model, at least with large rpgs. Players will gladly continue to put up with with being testers if it means getting their games 6 months or a year sooner and honestly having 500,000 or 5 million people playing your game will find issues a hell of lot faster than 20 professional QA people, so you probably end up with a polished product much sooner as well. If particular player doesn't like this model they can always wait a year or so to buy the game and probably save money as well. Weelll, the commentators on the post seem to agree in general... Anyhooo..... Here is another one: Quotes: "No one likes to see something he or she hates in the mirror. But the cold, hard truth of the matter is that we, as gamers, have created an environment in which releasing a bug-free, big-budget game in a timely manner is almost impossible." "For better or worse, buying a big-budget game upon launch seals you into an unspoken arrangement with the developer: You become an unpaid arm of its QA (quality assurance) branch. " "Of course, there will always be gamers for whom bugs are completely unacceptable, and that's a fair attitude to adopt. Unfortunately for them, though, the market has spoken, and it's not very critical of buggy games, provided they get patched within a reasonable time frame. These gamers' best recourse is to avoid pre-ordering a game if it comes from a company (like Ubisoft) with a bad reputation for day-one difficulties and to continue voicing their displeasure (civilly) via email, social media and forums. " http://www.tomsguide.com/us/people-buy-broken-games,news-19952.html And yes, I have read the whole article. I have not been uncivil, used abusive language or made any personal attacks while voicing my displeasure. I was exited about this game so brought it immediately, looking forward to playing it. I will not make the same mistake again. The market has spoken..... Yay!

Lol. Thank you. Title edited. :D