Cathari

Personally preferred the bronze, nice rich color. I would may say that it was "copper" in color than bronze, which I guess is why I like it.

Okay, did a screen-dump, and munged with a photo-editor and upload to my web-space: Imagine her with her hair in a bun on her head. Said actress even has the deep blue eyes like Atris has, even though it's not that apparant in the image above.

Atris: http://groups.msn.com/KimJohnstonUlrich/ki...hoto&PhotoID=17 Sorry - couldn't find a way to link the picture in directly.

Hmmm. You may be right. I've personally never seen it happen. Then again, I could never figure out how to get the droid pacifist unit installed into HK-47 either, so I just figured that I was just doing something wrong. I have seen a number of game guides, both official and unofficial mention that it Bao-Dur can/will update HK-47. The official guide just says he'll do it, and the unofficial guide I read said that he would when his repair skill was high enough.

You may be right. I still liked the idea that Bao-Dur died while trying to reverse his biggest mistake, and redeem himself, and achieving that through his Remote, which was his creation and final "piece" of himself. Not that I wanted him to die, but it seemed fitting given that rest of the tone of the ending that was cut, and what he kept moaning about all through the game.

The thing is though is that he's not even present in the Save Game file for Malachor V, whereas everyone else is. At every other time in the game when people are just "busy" somewhere else (for example Atton when you're on Dxun, he's unavailable, but his character is still present in the Save Game files). Visas, who you can get her to commit suicide on the Ravager, disappears from Save Game files after she commits suicide, so basically the pattern here is that characters who are dead, rather than unavailable, aren't in the save game files any longer. While pure-speculation, the whole Remote with Bao-Dur's hologram sequence thing reminds me of a "If you're seeing this - I'm dead but I need you to do this one last thing for me...". I mean, at what time at any point in the game is Bao-Dur ever without the Remote. Never. The Remote would only be alone if Bao-Dur was dead. Again, just speculation. I would have thought that T3-M4 was the one would piloted the Ebon Hawk after it fell and everyone else left for the Trayus Academy.

Yeah, yeah - I know it's a bit of a repeat of earlier threads - but I just wanted to rehash it because there are some things which I uncovered which I didn't see mentioned in other threads (or maybe I just missed them). I'll focus specifically on what was meant to happen in the "good" ending, since this seems to be the most fleshed out ending in the dialog file. So where is Bao-Dur at the end? If we use a save-game editor we see that he's not even available in the save-game files for the final sequence at Malachor V, which pretty much means that he's dead. The dialog file would seem to indicate that Bao-Dur sacrificed himself attempting to do something to fix up the accidental result of the Mass Shadow Generator - I could only guess that he died just after finalising some part of the sequence - but after having done enough that all the Remote needed to do was to activate the generators from the 4 ships. The dialog file makes explicit mention that Malachor should have broken apart and been totally destroyed when the original MSG fired, but something went wrong, and that the planet is really just 3 planetoids somehow still being held together by the bizarre gravtional fields unique to Malachor V. Now in the good ending when the ship flies off we can see the remnants of Malachor splitting into 3 separate pieces just before the camera pans away, so presumably that scene occurs after the Exile giving the order to fire the MSG again, thereby destroying Malachor V finally. Now we see the bit where Goto intercepts the Remote in the game, but after that Goto gets ambushed by HK-47, Goto calls in his HK-50 droids, because apparantly Goto is the one who arranged for them to be created in the first place, but is guzzumped when the HK-50's recognise and treat HK-47 as one of them, thereby not allowing them to kill HK-47 due to their self-preservation routines. Goto pretty much mentions that this is an unfortunate over-sight on his behalf, then gets blasted by HK-47. HK-47 knows that the Remote is still in the ship remnant and taunts the Remote to come out, but Remote eludes him, presumably to then later return and fire the MSG. One could speculate here that there would have been an exciting cut-scene where when the Exile gives the order to be fired, that the Remote makes a dash for the console, HK-47 hot on his tail, and just as HK-47 lines up Remote to blast him, Remote activates the MSG. In the dialog file, it's sort of evident that Mira was meant to fight Hanharr before the Exile even wakes up and starts the trek from the broken Ebon Hawk down to the Trayus Acadamy. Mira (good exile) defeats Hanharr, walks pretty much unchallenged into the Academy, and confronts Kreia. Kreia remarks something about Mira walking in all alone, and then Handmaiden, Atton, and Visas wander in saying that Mira is not all alone. Kreia makes mention as she looks at the pseduo-Jedi gathered, and she says "Well, let's see what the result of the Exile's teachings have wrought." Kreia then proceeds to kick each of their butts in turn with Force Crush, but curiously the dialog file never makes mention of her specifically dealing with Atton, that honor appears goes to Sion who "gets" to deal with Atton personally, one would presume in the now very famous cut-scene where Atton gets mangled by Sion, only to be found later by the Exile. In the game Kreia mentions that the Exile has a choice to face when the Exile first enters the Academy. In the game the player is faced with a "hostile" who doesn't attack, so I guess that's the "cut" replacement choice. In the dialog file, Kreia goes on to say that the choice is meant to be one of the player choosing to come directly to confront Kreia/Sion, or having to divert to rescue the Exile's friends, thereby weakening the Exile. In the game maps if one hugs the outer walls of the east crescant, we can clearly see the map pointer tags behind doors that cannot be opened locating the prison cells where the Exile's allies would presumably be kept. There's still the whole Atton death thing to contend with, but it appears that the player was meant to have the time to heal Atton if the player went to save him first (by not going to Kreia directly) thereby granting the "happy-end" Atton ending, or if the Exile does go to Kreia directly, then the Exile arrives at the prison cells too late after the confrontation with Kreia. The Exile's friends are all dead, and Atton is left there, irreparably near-death with the Atton death-scene comments. There's also meant to be a touching parting scene where Visas says good-bye to the Exile, with whom Visas is obviously in love with (assuming the Exile is male). Exile explains that the Exile has to head off to go help Revan, and the Exile appears to have a number of other convserational topics where the Exile instructs his remaining allies to prepare and wait for him, and to show others the way to go beyond the Rim and fight the war against the Sith. What I don't understand is that all of this would still tie in well with a Kotor3, with the Exile heading off after Revan, leaving the previous NPC's behind, just as is what is implied in the "cut" ending of the game. In other words, I'm seriously struggling to understand why all of this was cut out. Thanks for hearing the rant. If anyone has anything else to add to expand on what the ending should have been, then I'd like to hear it. If you want to moan that it's all been said before, then just ignore my post and don't bother complaining and let this thread die.

This wasn't cut - it is in the game. You just need for Bao-Dur to have a really high repair skill before this sequence fires - but I don't know just what it needs to be though - perhaps 30+. It's not like the Remote/Goto sequences which seem to be indepedent of Bao-Dur's repair skill (or at least Bao-Dur's repair skill when you first get him is already high enough for those events to trigger).

LOL. If one REALLY doesn't want to believe it, then any straw will do, I guess.

Disciple's comment here says that she was: "As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that." Disciple's extremely strong implication here is that Kae was Revan's first, and the other's came later after Kae was exiled, also supported by Kreia's statements that the others came later. "But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters" This is basic English common sense. When you read this statement - it is saying that "other" masters (meaning plural) came later after the first. Since Kreia is making the statement, she is clearly Revan's first Master, as supported by Disciple's statement above that other Master's came after Kae, his first. Zhar, Dorak, and Arren Kae were Revan's first 3 masters, with the others, "on other planets", coming later as stated by both Kreia and Disciple. Which of those three was first may appear unclear, but it is not. But this is explained and supported. His "final" master was female (as stated by Disciple), and since the final master is the first master, then the first master must be a female from either Zhar, Dorak or Kae. Now Kreia tells us that Revan had Zhar after her. Which leaves us with Dorak. Now Dorak is male (so is Zhar incidentally), as he's in Kotor1, so that leaves us with Kae/Kreia as the only one of the three who is both female and one of Revan's first Master's, which makes Kae/Kreia as Revan's first master, since Kreia was his last master. Kae/Kreia are the same person.

What needs to be explained? Conclusions from the quotes: Arren Kae was Revan's first master (when he was a Padawan). He had other masters after that (Zhar, Dorak, plus presumably others), after he had learned all that he could from her. He returned to his first master, the one who was exiled (Arren Kae), to learn how best to leave the Jedi Order. Kreia tells us that she was Revan's Master when he was a Padawan, and that Revan returned to her to learn how to leave the Jedi Order. Kreia/Kae are the one and the same person.

Trick question?

Conclusive evidence that Kreia is Arren Kae - in-game quotes ...and one more additional set of quotes from Kreia herself that matches what Disciple said: Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. " Kreia: "But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each." Kreia: "But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever." ....now compare that to what Disciple says.... Disciple: "Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order." Disciple: "As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had." These set of quotes, together, conclusively tell us that Kreia is indeed Arren Kae.

There's also the bit where Vrook in the "Jedi Council" scene expresses surprise that Kreia is alive "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars!". and "If this is your new Master exile, then you will follow down the same path as surely as Revan did", or something to that effect, and this ties in with Revan seeking out Kreia to leave the order. This doesn't prove anything of course, but Arren Kae was believed to have died in the Wars too, so this is merely another point of circumstantial evidence to demonstrate that just because people believe that someone died, doesn't really mean that they are. As mentioned above, Disciple makes reference that Kae left for the Mandalorian Wars, and that Kae was one of Revan's first teachers. Disciple mentions that Revan returned to his first teacher for instruction on how to leave the order. Kreia makes mention that she first taught Revan early on, and then Revan returned to be instructed by her after she had left the Jedi Order, and presumably that would have been his last relationship with any "master" in the role of an apprentice before he went on to become a Master himself and leading the Jedi Wars. Then there is also this very compelling quote from Disciple which I have not seen mentioned above: "As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had." ...and since Kreia stated that she was Revan's first master (as she would be if he were a padawan under her), and then that she was his final master, this gives a tremendous amount of weight to the argument that Kreia is indeed Arren Kae, and Brianna's mother. That quote by the Disciple came up in one line of questioning and when viewed with Kreia's statements about her relationship with Revan makes for a rather convincing case in my mind. Sorry if all of this was mentioned above, I read through the first 15 pages and didn't see anyone mention it by then.