Counter magic?

[fan]

Since people are enthusiastic about powerful, battle changing spells with long casting times, I'm thinking counter-magic would be an interesting specialization for mage characters.

 

After identifying the type of spell cast by the enemy mage by watching the casting animation, the counter-mage needs to performs the appropriate counter spell. If this is done quickly enough, the enemy's casting attempt fails, or even backfires.

[Blam]

How about hurling another spell of a similar shape straight back at the caster? Cone to counter a cone, ball to counter a ball, beam to counter a beam. Perhaps make them both explode whereever they collide. If the caster's ability were to be all that is holding a fireball's shape together then making them lose their concentration could lose the shape of the spell and turn the spell into fire spilling over the ground rather than the intended explosion. Weakening but not cancelling entirely. Having multiple ways for make a complicated spell to go awry might make for some interesting tactics.

[Thraxen]

I think I'd prefer a way that wouldn't entirely negate an enemy spell, unless you got a critical success or something. Maybe being able to knock an AoE attack off-target or simply reduce the damage/effects of a spell. If it caused burn damage, you could stop it from setting anyone on fire or something similar. Maybe the more skilled you are in whatever form of magic you're attempting to counter, the more likely it is that you'll completely negate it?

[Jarmo]

Not counters as such, but I'd like to see mages being able to "shield" the party of magic effects.

The kind of stuff you *always* see if there's magic in movies or comics or books, but *never* see in games.

Shielding would consume energy and leave you drained, especially if the strong opponent just breaks through.

 

All depending on how magic works in Eternity and if it's at all commonplace and whatever.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Jarmo

[Gurkog]

I find smacking mages about the head with a mace to be an effective counter.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

It would be nice to have no generic counterspell-type options (shield-type magics don't count as such!), but be able to unravel any enemy magic you know the formula of.

[Sensuki]

Cloudkill / Sleeping Cloud

 

Zone of True Air

 

etc

[Umberlin]

I always felt like the Quest for Glory series actually, strangely for not being a pure RPG series, handled countering magic very well. This was likely because they were part puzzle game, as well as RPGs. In QfG:II you had to pass a test to be admitted to W.I.T., in GfQ:III you had a magic duel with a Shaman where you had to counter his spells with the correct spells, and only could only use each spell you had once, in QfG:IV you were ambushed by fairies and had to duel them, again using your spells intelligently. And of course the ending battles always required you use your abilities to partially fight, and partially solve, the battles.

 

The actual implementations were very interesting.

• Reversal
  

This is the first 'obvious' counter spell you get. You cast it, it lasts for a period of time, and it reflects any spell directly cast at you back at the attacker. In theory your expertise in the spell should determine the power of spell it can reflect but that never came into play in the game that I remember.

• Calm
  

The Calm spell is actually one of the first you get. And is a great example of a counter spell, but not an obvious one meant 'just' for countering. You see its first apparent use you're introduced to is calming creates that try to harm you. In combat it doesn't work, the person or creature is too worked up (or they'll just calmly eat you), but if you catch someone unaware you can use it to relax them to sleep, and other such uses. It won't work on everything (no calming the undead) but that's not the point.

 

However, as you learn more about magic over the course of the games you find something neat. You see, it can calm things besides people and creatures. For example you can use it to calm a fire, as one example. And, indeed, you do eventually get into situations where you battle other magic users who realize you have a spell of Reversal, so they try indirect means to kill you. They set the ground beneath you on fire, for example. The Calm spell is a counter to that.

• Dazzle
  

The Dazzle spell is another spell introduced that has a dual use you don't realize up front. The obvious use at first is that it creates a blinding light, temporarily blinding those nearby. It's used in several ways, maybe to keep a monster that's chasing you from catching you, for example. Later you use it to blind guards so that you can sneak past them.

 

Eventually, however, you realize it can also dispell illusions. A Shaman creatures an illusionary snake in the third game, and you use the spell to disrupt his illusion. It's a counter to such things, though it couldn't dispell a more tangible thing like a person that's been truly transformed.

• Aura
  

Aura was pretty up front. It's a magic user's protection from powerful undead, it won't destroy them or keep they, or lesser undead, away but it can prevent their life draining aura from slowly draining away your life. A counter to life draining magics. It lasts for an amount of time after cast, dependant on your skill in the spell.

• Resistance
  

This is actually an advanced spell that you don't get as soon. It resists elemental damage, but that means reduce, not prevent. It's more like armor against elemental damage.

• Juggling Lights
  

This is a maintained spell of sorts, it only lasts for as long as your character keeps it up and, at first, doesn't really seem to do much. Whoo juggling lights. Well, outside of the spell you learn being a joke, it's also a light in the literal darkness. It makes things lighter and acts as a counter to magics that shroud an area in darkness.

 

You also had other spells like detect magic, which could tell you if something was magical or affected by magic. It's an interesting spell because in theory if you got more skill in it you'd receive more information on what you sensed . . . but the game never did that.

 

There was also the Trigger spell, often used in conjuction with the Detect Magic spell because it activated magical enchantments and the like. For example a spell on a Bell to make the Bell ring would go off when Trigger was cast upon it. It could also reveal magically hidden objects to the physical eye for all to see, as well as other similar uses. It literally triggered or released spells. This was made more complex with the introduction of the magical staff because trigger would release all the magic a staff had been imbued with, essentially causing it to violently explode due to all the magic being released at once.

 

These were interesting ways of countering and dealing with magic via spells, in some cases, that actually would have had very different uses until you applied your brain to realize that could actually be used for secondary purposes to counter magical effects of sort. It added depth to the game and was more interesting than simply, "the counter spell to this spell that is only used to counter this spell" though . . . some did unfortunately suffer from that (Aura, Resistance . . . ).

Edited September 19, 2012 by Umberlin

[veryblackraven]

I actually thought of something like Blanks in Warhammer 40.000. Since all the magic is connected to souls, there can be some 'hollow' characters, that possess the ability to nullify magic.

[Umberlin]

I actually thought of something like Blanks in Warhammer 40.000. Since all the magic is connected to souls, there can be some 'hollow' characters, that possess the ability to nullify magic.

 

That has it's merits too, if implemented and controlled just right.

[Infinitron]

Sounds cool.

[evdk]

 

 

After identifying the type of spell cast by the enemy mage by watching the casting animation, the counter-mage needs to performs the appropriate counter spell. If this is done quickly enough, the enemy's casting attempt fails, or even backfires.

Isn't that a bit actiony? IMHO should be at least partially done automatically by the character, if you set him up to provide counterspelling support.

[Umberlin]

After identifying the type of spell cast by the enemy mage by watching the casting animation, the counter-mage needs to performs the appropriate counter spell. If this is done quickly enough, the enemy's casting attempt fails, or even backfires.

Isn't that a bit actiony? IMHO should be at least partially done automatically by the character, if you set him up to provide counterspelling support.

 

An interesting question but if we're already talking real time combat that you can pause, one can understand why systems may be in place to take advantage of the pausing - like countering. Then again Quest for Glory, which what I posted above was done in real time and there was plenty of time to counter without the game being too 'actiony' though I wouldn't dismiss your concern either.

[evdk]

After identifying the type of spell cast by the enemy mage by watching the casting animation, the counter-mage needs to performs the appropriate counter spell. If this is done quickly enough, the enemy's casting attempt fails, or even backfires.

Isn't that a bit actiony? IMHO should be at least partially done automatically by the character, if you set him up to provide counterspelling support.

 

 

An interesting question but if we're already talking real time combat that you can pause, one can understand why systems may be in place to take advantage of the pausing - like countering. Then again Quest for Glory, which what I posted above was done in real time and there was plenty of time to counter without the game being too 'actiony' though I wouldn't dismiss your concern either.

Well the discussion is a little difficult without at least some basic information about the magic system.

Edited September 19, 2012 by evdk

[Umberlin]

Well the discussion is a little difficult without at least some basic information about the magic system.

 

True enough, but it's still neat to think about.

[Eleneithel]

I think magic is vast domain and there should several means to counter a spell, everyone with his own advantages and disadvantages:

 

- The first one would be a proper counterspell. The spellcaster knows the spell casted by his opponent and use the adequate counterspell to block the incoming attack. This would be the ideal and cleanest way of countering magic, but not every spell would have a counterspell (to make things fun).

 

- The second one would be an improvised counterspell. The spellcaster casts an opposite spell of the one used by his opponent. This would be the simplest method, but it wouldn't work every times... or it would work only partialy.

 

- The third one would be the most dangerous as you attack directly the opponent to break his control over his spell. The spellcaster use a spell to attack the opponent before he achieve his incantation (or a companion attacks and hurts him), the opponent loses grasp on his spell and fails to cast it. But there could be differents side-effects inherents to the disruption of the spell, which becomes wild magic (explosion, death of the opponent caster, magical contamination, ens...).

[Umberlin]

I like the second because it goes with the idea that you have your spells that have their usual uses, but they have other uses that aren't obvious up front until you really think about it. I always like when there are depths to spells beyond their obvious direct use.