Vancian caster discussion

[gGeorg]

Spells/Skills per rest work in the table top, where Dungeon Master cares about time and resources. For computer game, flows of time is difficult. Save and load combo is the best spell. For this reason, vancian casting do not work for computer games.

 

Vancian casting worked in the environment where player didnt know the story, didnt know enemies ahead and can not ever load-up. It worked because every game was naturally "Iron man" AND blind walktru.

If you implement these to a computer game, then such resource management might work again.

 

In the environment of save&load, internet guides, lets plays, ... vancian casting is a system which promotes poison play. Watch the guide before you play, try the same encounter all over again, prepare for "surprise" ambush and use  the best skill/set just for this encounter becouse you know that in advance. e.g. there is still worm in the mind, I could load up the encounter and try again so I save a spell for later use. Thats not good system at all.

 

For computer games, with easy time flow are skills based on encounter and/or cooldowns much better suited. For computer games is better focus all (majority) the resources for the encounter to the time window of the encounter.

 

One thing is, saving in the middle of the combat could interupt the resource management of the battle, (get the advatage over enemy by the out of the system tool save&load) therefore, I would not recommend allow that.

Edited March 8, 2018 by gGeorg

[hilfazer]

Vancian casting worked in the environment where player didnt know the story, didnt know enemies ahead and can not ever load-up. It worked because every game was naturally "Iron man" AND blind walktru.

If you implement these to a computer game, then such resource management might work again.

 

In the environment of save&load, internet guides, lets plays, ... vancian casting is a system which promotes poison play. Watch the guide before you play, try the same encounter all over again, prepare for "surprise" ambush and use  the best skill/set just for this encounter becouse you know that in advance. e.g. there is still worm in the mind, I could load up the encounter and try again so I save a spell for later use. Thats not good system at all.

 

You're not suggesting games should be designed around players who read guides, are you?

[Wormerine]

You're not suggesting games should be designed around players who read guides, are you?

He says that games should be designed around enviroment they will be played in. Importing mechanics from tabletop where enviroment and gameplay flow is different is not always the best way to go.

 

Vancian or per-rest casting isn't bad idea within itself, but either needs enviroment to make those mechanics flourish or be change to something more suited to the rest of the game.  

[djinnxy]

I like the way casters are now except... My experience with casters so far is strategize a build for 2 hours > Move to the first combat > Wind up a spell hands flailing like I lost motor control > Get hit and almost die > Try to wind up another spell > Dead > Meanwhile the rest of the melee party is untouched and could continue fighting for 20 minutes while I get up to make dinner. Casting times are a tad too long.

[JerekKruger]

My point being, 2 per-encounters per spell level is way overkill unless combat has drastically changed.

 

I think this is what bugs me about the former Vancian casters in Deadfire. In Pillars the idea was that they had limited resources (casts) compared to Chanters and Ciphers, but made up for that with flexibility (more spell choice) and the ability to front load their output during hard fighters. Of course some players rest spammed, removing the downside*, but that was the idea.

 

In Deadfire you're given, in essence, a lot more casts. Yes, compared to that upscaled Magran's Faithful fight where you dump your entire grimoire as fast as you can you've got less, but in most fights you're going to have a lot more. However you no longer have the flexibility side of things. Not only do you know far fewer spells than you did in Pillars, but limiting you to 2 casts per level also limits your choice.

 

I don't really know what the solution is, but right now Vancian casters feel like a let down to me.

 

*On a side note I honestly think that simply removing all camping supplies from containers in Pillars, having them only be purchasable at shops, would remove this problem for most players. Only a very small number would repeatedly return to town to buy more in order to continue to rest spam.